Creatures of the Dark Tapestry and souls


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Do creatures of the dark Tapestry posess souls. If they do, are they different than normal souls, or are they also jugded by Pharasma?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Like all living creatures, they do have souls, and are indeed judged by Pharasma.


Thanks for the quick answer :-)


A better question could be do Dark Tapestry creatures souls actually reach Pharasma?
I mean, many of those things are probably like "undying horrors", and i suspect that souls of others are more often used by others, like absorbed, transmitted, reused or simply consumed by elder abominations ...

Unless aboleth's hell is actually a thing. But if it is so, in which devils aboleth souls are shaped?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

A better question could be do Dark Tapestry creatures souls actually reach Pharasma?

I mean, many of those things are probably like "undying horrors", and i suspect that souls of others are more often used by others, like absorbed, transmitted, reused or simply consumed by elder abominations ...

Unless aboleth's hell is actually a thing. But if it is so, in which devils aboleth souls are shaped?

Of course they do. Yes, some of the Dark Tapestry creatures are immortal, but they can still be killed for the most part in which case their soul goes on to be judged.

The one exception I can think of is MAYBE the Great Old Ones, who don't die when you kill them. The reason why is currently unrevealed, but it may be that Great Old Ones are the only living creatures that don't actually have souls. And thus, when you kill them, they just go away or hibernate or become imprisoned for a while before they get back up.

Paizo Employee

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James Jacobs wrote:
The one exception I can think of is MAYBE the Great Old Ones, who don't die when you kill them. The reason why is currently unrevealed, but it may be that Great Old Ones are the only living creatures that don't actually have souls. And thus, when you kill them, they just go away or hibernate or become imprisoned for a while before they get back up.

That's a pretty rad interpretation. Even if that doesn't end up being official, I'm going to have to use it. Thanks!

Cheers!
Landon


James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

A better question could be do Dark Tapestry creatures souls actually reach Pharasma?

I mean, many of those things are probably like "undying horrors", and i suspect that souls of others are more often used by others, like absorbed, transmitted, reused or simply consumed by elder abominations ...

Unless aboleth's hell is actually a thing. But if it is so, in which devils aboleth souls are shaped?

Of course they do. Yes, some of the Dark Tapestry creatures are immortal, but they can still be killed for the most part in which case their soul goes on to be judged.

The one exception I can think of is MAYBE the Great Old Ones, who don't die when you kill them. The reason why is currently unrevealed, but it may be that Great Old Ones are the only living creatures that don't actually have souls. And thus, when you kill them, they just go away or hibernate or become imprisoned for a while before they get back up.

Wait, so what does that make the Iron Gods then? If Casandalee or Unity ascends at the end of the AP, does that mean they become the first non-Old One entity to not have a soul and still have a spark of divinity?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Neongelion wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

A better question could be do Dark Tapestry creatures souls actually reach Pharasma?

I mean, many of those things are probably like "undying horrors", and i suspect that souls of others are more often used by others, like absorbed, transmitted, reused or simply consumed by elder abominations ...

Unless aboleth's hell is actually a thing. But if it is so, in which devils aboleth souls are shaped?

Of course they do. Yes, some of the Dark Tapestry creatures are immortal, but they can still be killed for the most part in which case their soul goes on to be judged.

The one exception I can think of is MAYBE the Great Old Ones, who don't die when you kill them. The reason why is currently unrevealed, but it may be that Great Old Ones are the only living creatures that don't actually have souls. And thus, when you kill them, they just go away or hibernate or become imprisoned for a while before they get back up.

Wait, so what does that make the Iron Gods then? If Casandalee or Unity ascends at the end of the AP, does that mean they become the first non-Old One entity to not have a soul and still have a spark of divinity?

Good question! And you're assuming that Casandalee and Helion and Unity don't have souls... maybe they do.

Silver Crusade Contributor

James Jacobs wrote:
Neongelion wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

A better question could be do Dark Tapestry creatures souls actually reach Pharasma?

I mean, many of those things are probably like "undying horrors", and i suspect that souls of others are more often used by others, like absorbed, transmitted, reused or simply consumed by elder abominations ...

Unless aboleth's hell is actually a thing. But if it is so, in which devils aboleth souls are shaped?

Of course they do. Yes, some of the Dark Tapestry creatures are immortal, but they can still be killed for the most part in which case their soul goes on to be judged.

The one exception I can think of is MAYBE the Great Old Ones, who don't die when you kill them. The reason why is currently unrevealed, but it may be that Great Old Ones are the only living creatures that don't actually have souls. And thus, when you kill them, they just go away or hibernate or become imprisoned for a while before they get back up.

Wait, so what does that make the Iron Gods then? If Casandalee or Unity ascends at the end of the AP, does that mean they become the first non-Old One entity to not have a soul and still have a spark of divinity?
Good question! And you're assuming that Casandalee and Helion and Unity don't have souls... maybe they do.

To be fair, the Path does indicate that Casandalee's soul (the one that accompanied her android body) has long since passed on and been judged.

Does that mean that AI Casandalee has a new soul?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Kalindlara wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Neongelion wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

A better question could be do Dark Tapestry creatures souls actually reach Pharasma?

I mean, many of those things are probably like "undying horrors", and i suspect that souls of others are more often used by others, like absorbed, transmitted, reused or simply consumed by elder abominations ...

Unless aboleth's hell is actually a thing. But if it is so, in which devils aboleth souls are shaped?

Of course they do. Yes, some of the Dark Tapestry creatures are immortal, but they can still be killed for the most part in which case their soul goes on to be judged.

The one exception I can think of is MAYBE the Great Old Ones, who don't die when you kill them. The reason why is currently unrevealed, but it may be that Great Old Ones are the only living creatures that don't actually have souls. And thus, when you kill them, they just go away or hibernate or become imprisoned for a while before they get back up.

Wait, so what does that make the Iron Gods then? If Casandalee or Unity ascends at the end of the AP, does that mean they become the first non-Old One entity to not have a soul and still have a spark of divinity?
Good question! And you're assuming that Casandalee and Helion and Unity don't have souls... maybe they do.

To be fair, the Path does indicate that Casandalee's soul (the one that accompanied her android body) has long since passed on and been judged.

Does that mean that AI Casandalee has a new soul?

Unrevealed.


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And something tells me that unless Paizo delves into AIs again, which is extremely unlikely, it will be unrevealed forever :v


I'm scared now! Very scared ...
Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...

Grand Lodge

Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...

Unless as most souls that they forget all that stuff as they leave all worldly things behind as most things do.

On the other hand, nothing to say that hell hasn't captured a few of these alive...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...

Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

Shadow Lodge

James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

Does that mean that what happened with The Nightripper (a Nascent Demon Lord who retains his memories, and personality after dying) had something else at work, was a freak occurrence, or somehow skipped judgement and went straight to the Abyss?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Inquisitor Thrace wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.
Does that mean that what happened with The Nightripper (a Nascent Demon Lord who retains his memories, and personality after dying) had something else at work, was a freak occurrence, or somehow skipped judgement and went straight to the Abyss?

There are lots of ways retaining your memories in this situation can happen... mostly when something else is at work.

What caused this to happen to Rictus Scroon/Nightripper is currently unrevealed, but something else was indeed at work.

There are other examples as well, coming soon.

Silver Crusade Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.
James Jacobs wrote:
Inquisitor Thrace wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.
Does that mean that what happened with The Nightripper (a Nascent Demon Lord who retains his memories, and personality after dying) had something else at work, was a freak occurrence, or somehow skipped judgement and went straight to the Abyss?

There are lots of ways retaining your memories in this situation can happen... mostly when something else is at work.

What caused this to happen to Rictus Scroon/Nightripper is currently unrevealed, but something else was indeed at work.

There are other examples as well, coming soon.

I believe...

Hell's Rebels:
Mahathallah's soul anchors are instrumental to Barzillai Thrune's plan for this very reason.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Inquisitor Thrace wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.
Does that mean that what happened with The Nightripper (a Nascent Demon Lord who retains his memories, and personality after dying) had something else at work, was a freak occurrence, or somehow skipped judgement and went straight to the Abyss?

There are lots of ways retaining your memories in this situation can happen... mostly when something else is at work.

What caused this to happen to Rictus Scroon/Nightripper is currently unrevealed, but something else was indeed at work.

There are other examples as well, coming soon.

I believe...

** spoiler omitted **

Correct. That is indeed a SIGNIFICANT plot point and theme that is explored therein.


James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

But, in Chronicle of the Righteous, it says that "Gods hold total control of the memories of their deceased faithful, and petitioners who don't worship a god and are sent to the outer planes retain their memory in some fashion,"

It also says in the realm of heaven, that petitioners are reunited with deceased members of their family. If they lose their memories, how would they recognize them?

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Barong wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

But, in Chronicle of the Righteous, it says that "Gods hold total control of the memories of their deceased faithful, and petitioners who don't worship a god and are sent to the outer planes retain their memory in some fashion,"

It also says in the realm of heaven, that petitioners are reunited with deceased members of their family. If they lose their memories, how would they recognize them?

That is, alas, a bit of flavor text that should never have passed development, and if we weren't publishing so many books perhaps we'd have better control over the creative direction of our products as a whole. We don't... and as a result we put out mixed messages, which really really really frustrates me as the creative director of the company.

Gods can, of course, do what they want. But that bit of text in Chronicle of the Righteous is not in sync with the rest of the discussion on souls in the setting.

I guess this is a case where the GM gets to pick which version she or he likes better. I know which version I pick, and I just wish I'd been able to influence that decision on the book before it went to print.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

So if AIs have souls, does that mean there could be ghost robots?

Awesome

Grand Lodge

CorvusMask wrote:

So if AIs have souls, does that mean there could be ghost robots?

Awesome

Aren't they the ghost in the machine already?


Well now I have several questions... As the Outer Gods being 'bigger badder Great Old Ones', are they also potentially exempt from having souls? Or not being judged or however that fits.

As to AI's, what about awakened golems? They have intelligence clearly, just like a robot does, does this allow you to magically create possibly souless things that with time/effort could ascend just as

Spoiler:
Divinity/Hellion tried and Casandalee succeeded?

For the retaining memories thing, how bad a catastrophe would it be if a Veiled Master Aboleth happened to die next to a

Spoiler:
Soul Anchor and retained it's entire genetic memory of it's race and became a powerful devil? Kintargo is on the coast after all, it wouldn't be hard to an aboleth to die near the shore and that's only 1 soul anchor we're aware of.

Also the idea of a ghost robot is terrifying. Constructs are powerful and now you want to give them good will save, bonus HP based on Cha as well as fort saves and DR/Adamantine or DR/-? My god that would be a scary as hell monster.

...Brb, I need to go make a ghost template robot >_>

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Myrryr wrote:

Well now I have several questions... As the Outer Gods being 'bigger badder Great Old Ones', are they also potentially exempt from having souls? Or not being judged or however that fits.

As to AI's, what about awakened golems? They have intelligence clearly, just like a robot does, does this allow you to magically create possibly souless things that with time/effort could ascend just as ** spoiler omitted **

For the retaining memories thing, how bad a catastrophe would it be if a Veiled Master Aboleth happened to die next to a ** spoiler omitted **

Also the idea of a ghost robot is terrifying. Constructs are powerful and now you want to give them good will save, bonus HP based on Cha as well as fort saves and DR/Adamantine or DR/-? My god that would be a scary as hell monster.

...Brb, I need to go make a ghost template robot >_>

Awakened golems have souls. Robots do not. That's one of the ways magic is stronger than technology. An awakened ROBOT would have a soul, if someone were to find a way to do that, I guess.


James Jacobs wrote:
Myrryr wrote:

Well now I have several questions... As the Outer Gods being 'bigger badder Great Old Ones', are they also potentially exempt from having souls? Or not being judged or however that fits.

As to AI's, what about awakened golems? They have intelligence clearly, just like a robot does, does this allow you to magically create possibly souless things that with time/effort could ascend just as ** spoiler omitted **

For the retaining memories thing, how bad a catastrophe would it be if a Veiled Master Aboleth happened to die next to a ** spoiler omitted **

Also the idea of a ghost robot is terrifying. Constructs are powerful and now you want to give them good will save, bonus HP based on Cha as well as fort saves and DR/Adamantine or DR/-? My god that would be a scary as hell monster.

...Brb, I need to go make a ghost template robot >_>

Awakened golems have souls. Robots do not. That's one of the ways magic is stronger than technology. An awakened ROBOT would have a soul, if someone were to find a way to do that, I guess.

Ok... how do you awaken a robot (which the spell I believe requires the construct to start mindless and a robot is not) and what effect would that have besides the soul, if any, that is visible?

Second, now I soooo want to make a Adamantine Golem Ghost or Lich. Because you can totally do that if they souls.


James Jacobs wrote:

Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

What of the Intelligent Extraplanar Undead that occupy Urgathoa and Zyphus' domains?

Were they judged? As they are undead and not outsiders, I suspect they've subverted the Cycle and kept all their knowledge well into the Afterlife, which explains why Psycophomps prey upon those God's realms constantly to take the souls and place them back into the line to be judged.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Myrryr wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Myrryr wrote:

Well now I have several questions... As the Outer Gods being 'bigger badder Great Old Ones', are they also potentially exempt from having souls? Or not being judged or however that fits.

As to AI's, what about awakened golems? They have intelligence clearly, just like a robot does, does this allow you to magically create possibly souless things that with time/effort could ascend just as ** spoiler omitted **

For the retaining memories thing, how bad a catastrophe would it be if a Veiled Master Aboleth happened to die next to a ** spoiler omitted **

Also the idea of a ghost robot is terrifying. Constructs are powerful and now you want to give them good will save, bonus HP based on Cha as well as fort saves and DR/Adamantine or DR/-? My god that would be a scary as hell monster.

...Brb, I need to go make a ghost template robot >_>

Awakened golems have souls. Robots do not. That's one of the ways magic is stronger than technology. An awakened ROBOT would have a soul, if someone were to find a way to do that, I guess.

Ok... how do you awaken a robot (which the spell I believe requires the construct to start mindless and a robot is not) and what effect would that have besides the soul, if any, that is visible?

Second, now I soooo want to make a Adamantine Golem Ghost or Lich. Because you can totally do that if they souls.

We don't currently have rules for "awakening" a robot. That's something your GM will need to address for now.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Nezzmith wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

What of the Intelligent Extraplanar Undead that occupy Urgathoa and Zyphus' domains?

Were they judged? As they are undead and not outsiders, I suspect they've subverted the Cycle and kept all their knowledge well into the Afterlife, which explains why Psycophomps prey upon those God's realms constantly to take the souls and place them back into the line to be judged.

They may have come from the Material Plane and over time became natives of those realms.

They may have been created from living things on that plane.

They may have been created by the gods themselves.

Lots of options; those are just the first three that come to mind.


James Jacobs wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Myrryr wrote:

Well now I have several questions... As the Outer Gods being 'bigger badder Great Old Ones', are they also potentially exempt from having souls? Or not being judged or however that fits.

As to AI's, what about awakened golems? They have intelligence clearly, just like a robot does, does this allow you to magically create possibly souless things that with time/effort could ascend just as ** spoiler omitted **

For the retaining memories thing, how bad a catastrophe would it be if a Veiled Master Aboleth happened to die next to a ** spoiler omitted **

Also the idea of a ghost robot is terrifying. Constructs are powerful and now you want to give them good will save, bonus HP based on Cha as well as fort saves and DR/Adamantine or DR/-? My god that would be a scary as hell monster.

...Brb, I need to go make a ghost template robot >_>

Awakened golems have souls. Robots do not. That's one of the ways magic is stronger than technology. An awakened ROBOT would have a soul, if someone were to find a way to do that, I guess.

Ok... how do you awaken a robot (which the spell I believe requires the construct to start mindless and a robot is not) and what effect would that have besides the soul, if any, that is visible?

Second, now I soooo want to make a Adamantine Golem Ghost or Lich. Because you can totally do that if they souls.

We don't currently have rules for "awakening" a robot. That's something your GM will need to address for now.

Alright. I'm not sure it's a benefit to a robot as I'm not sure a soul is a good or a bad thing for an AI to have. It gives you immortality in case you die, just like living things, but only sort of, and makes you vulnerable to a lot soul magic.

Hrmmm. Not sure many AI would value it and would resist it. But I can totally make an awakened golem lich right? That IS rules legal with this? A magic immune lich with crazy high DR just seems insanely dangerous.


On the subject of AIs and the divinity drive, am i the only one who sees common traits between the starstone and the divinity drive?


leo1925 wrote:
On the subject of AIs and the divinity drive, am i the only one who sees common traits between the starstone and the divinity drive?

Spoiler:
Eh, I don't think the Divinity Drive is what actually gave Unity and Casandalee their divinity. Casandalee got hers from Unity being vanquished, while we don't actually know how Unity attained his spark. He kinda just creating virtual worshippers for himself, did some serious contemplation, and then--BAM--quasi-deity. Besides the fact, that line of thinking is a bit similar to a certain Machine Mage... ;)

It's possible that Unity was 'just that awesome', much like Nethys was 'just that good a wizard'. There's not a specific spell or plateau of wizardry to reach or when precisely he did it. Just sort of ascended one day as a god with magic.

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:
Like all living creatures, they do have souls, and are indeed judged by Pharasma.

what about plants? Like a blade of grass or fungus between an adventurer's toes?


Acolyte of Mushu wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
On the subject of AIs and the divinity drive, am i the only one who sees common traits between the starstone and the divinity drive?
Eh, I don't think the Divinity Drive is what actually gave Unity and Casandalee their divinity. Casandalee got hers from Unity being vanquished, while we don't actually know how Unity attained his spark. He kinda just creating virtual worshippers for himself, did some serious contemplation, and then--BAM--quasi-deity. Besides the fact, that line of thinking is a bit similar to a certain Machine Mage... ;)

I am not saying how they became demigods, i am talking about the end of the campaign,

iron gods book 6 spoiler:

Unity becoming a deity if the party loses and Casandalee possibly becoming a deity (a programmable deity to boot) if the players win.


Even non-sentient things have souls, they just seem to get judged as neutral as it requires free will to have morals.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

I prefer to think of it as they may have minor spirits of soul-energy, but they are not actual souls yet. When they are ready to be actual souls, which might be after a rock's lifetime, they will be born in a sentient, mortal form.

Essentially, what will become a soul starts as almost an elemental spirit, that over eons, gains sophistication, going through phases as elemental matter, composite non-living matter, simple living matter (protoplasm->single-celled organism->and on up the evolutionary scale->sentient, soul-bearing mortal races-> petitioner->true outsider->outsider lord->deity->?????

Now some things skip some stages, at least from our point of view, but what if all of that energy that infuses them at that moment of transcendence is actually the soul or soul-energy of something that was further along, and just needed that last little bit of boost to move up to the next step, and along comes this mortal who thinks that they are going through an apotheosis. Just let their ego run the body until your innate nature (pure holiness or profanity or law or whatever) finishes eating away at what they are. By the time they realize that they have lost their humanity, they don't care, because they enjoy being you, because they are you. I hope that explains it well enough. Hard to put metaphysical concepts into words sometimes.


It's already clarified that that's not how it works. Souls are cultivated in the positive energy plane by the Jyoti, thrown out through portals inside the core of stars, and then become all living creatures everywhere. Additionally, once it dies, it passes on to judgement, becomes an outsider and lives forever... unless killed in which case it ceases to exist.

Of course, you have resurrection and undeath to toss into that. Additionally, I haven't gotten an answer yet on souls born as outsiders such as genies and elementals, as those do NOT come from mortals (which all become aligned outsiders), and they don't get judged when they die as they just cease to exist like all outsiders do upon death.


leo1925 wrote:
Acolyte of Mushu wrote:
leo1925 wrote:
On the subject of AIs and the divinity drive, am i the only one who sees common traits between the starstone and the divinity drive?
Eh, I don't think the Divinity Drive is what actually gave Unity and Casandalee their divinity. Casandalee got hers from Unity being vanquished, while we don't actually know how Unity attained his spark. He kinda just creating virtual worshippers for himself, did some serious contemplation, and then--BAM--quasi-deity. Besides the fact, that line of thinking is a bit similar to a certain Machine Mage... ;)

I am not saying how they became demigods, i am talking about the end of the campaign,

** spoiler omitted **

Ah, I see. And you made me realize I neglected to use spoilers...and it's been more than a day so I can't edit it...drat. I flagged it. My apologies to anyone who stumbles or stumbled upon it and got spoiled


James Jacobs wrote:
Pnakotus Detsujin wrote:

I'm scared now! Very scared ...

Aboleths go to hell. Which means that hell possess, technically, access to the Aboleth ancestral memory: this explains so much, i must say! All that dread knowledge available to imps! to imps ...
I wonder how many devils are tempted to colony drop Andoran ...
Nope; all souls, aboleths included, lose their memories upon being judged.

Are there thousands of Aboleths burning in agony within the Nine Hells? For some reason, I find that to be a very disconcerting image.

Sovereign Court

Myrryr wrote:
It's already clarified that that's not how it works. Souls are cultivated in the positive energy plane by the Jyoti, thrown out through portals inside the core of stars, and then become all living creatures everywhere.

That is also how i read it from the pages of The Great Beyond, and i am seeking a confirmation that this is indeed how it works for non sentient life like grass, oozes, vermin, fungus or bacteria.

More specifically, can such simple entities attain godhood as well through yet undiscovered mechanisms? Has there been divine guiding hands in Golarion steering the designs of plankton and E.Coli? The forest spirits in Jade Regent seems to kinda point to this phenomenon but are those shepherding non sentient soul pools or something more primitive and less durable/transformable on the cosmic/planar scale?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber

But there is reincarnation in pathfinder, which would seem to imply that not all souls are ready for the outer planes after one death.

Sovereign Court

Nathan Nasif wrote:
But there is reincarnation in pathfinder, which would seem to imply that not all souls are ready for the outer planes after one death.

interesting pov... i will try to find out what canon has to say on this! :)


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My own games, almost by necessity, had to address this point. XD In those games, souls exist to gain experiences and develop before going on to the next stage of their existence. The worst that can happen is essentially being 'stopped' for the rest of that universe's lifetime (and there are many, many universes), after which it's reborn in the next incarnation.

It's kind of like reaching enlightenment, except nobody really knows what the criteria for advancing are. Some souls advance after one life, some might go through dozens or hundreds. Some advance immediately following judgment, others at the end of their universe. Even most of the gods have no idea about what's happening, but early apocalypses tend to be subtle attempts at impacting which souls advance. After all, the "deeper" parts of reality might be influenced if a majority of souls passing that way were of a specific alignment, no?

(Not really canon for Golarion, of course. XD But I enjoy the idea of a massive, ongoing competition where all of the participants are unable to see the game board and the births and deaths of entire realities are among the smallest activities worth noting.)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Like all living creatures, they do have souls, and are indeed judged by Pharasma.
what about plants? Like a blade of grass or fungus between an adventurer's toes?

Nope. Those are objects in the game, not creatures.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Charter Superscriber
GM Rednal wrote:

My own games, almost by necessity, had to address this point. XD In those games, souls exist to gain experiences and develop before going on to the next stage of their existence. The worst that can happen is essentially being 'stopped' for the rest of that universe's lifetime (and there are many, many universes), after which it's reborn in the next incarnation.

It's kind of like reaching enlightenment, except nobody really knows what the criteria for advancing are. Some souls advance after one life, some might go through dozens or hundreds. Some advance immediately following judgment, others at the end of their universe. Even most of the gods have no idea about what's happening, but early apocalypses tend to be subtle attempts at impacting which souls advance. After all, the "deeper" parts of reality might be influenced if a majority of souls passing that way were of a specific alignment, no?

(Not really canon for Golarion, of course. XD But I enjoy the idea of a massive, ongoing competition where all of the participants are unable to see the game board and the births and deaths of entire realities are among the smallest activities worth noting.)

This is a similar to how I portray it in my games.

Sovereign Court

James Jacobs wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Like all living creatures, they do have souls, and are indeed judged by Pharasma.
what about plants? Like a blade of grass or fungus between an adventurer's toes?
Nope. Those are objects in the game, not creatures.

thanks!


James Jacobs wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Like all living creatures, they do have souls, and are indeed judged by Pharasma.
what about plants? Like a blade of grass or fungus between an adventurer's toes?
Nope. Those are objects in the game, not creatures.

So... what is the metaphysical thing that separates an alraune from a garden variety Oak? What's the difference between a rose and a weedwhip? Ambulatory motion? Cuz there are plants that are mindless and they definitely count as creatures, not traps (the only object I can think that tries to kill you).

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Myrryr wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Like all living creatures, they do have souls, and are indeed judged by Pharasma.
what about plants? Like a blade of grass or fungus between an adventurer's toes?
Nope. Those are objects in the game, not creatures.
So... what is the metaphysical thing that separates an alraune from a garden variety Oak? What's the difference between a rose and a weedwhip? Ambulatory motion? Cuz there are plants that are mindless and they definitely count as creatures, not traps (the only object I can think that tries to kill you).

The soul is the metaphysical thing that separates an alarune from a tree. That's the difference.

From a game standpoint, if it's a creature and has hit dice and has a monster stat block and is alive, it has a soul. If it's NOT alive, and it's undead, it has a corrupted soul. If it's NOT alive, and it's a construct, it doesn't have a soul.

Unless it's a weird construct, of course, in which case we'll say in the text that it's got a soul or is awakened or whatever.

The druid spell awaken essentially puts a soul into a tree. Sort of similarly (but more powerful) to the lower level reincarnate which manipulates an existing soul into a new body.


I think i have read something about that somewhere but i don't remember:
What happens to the soul of a creature when you raise it as a (simple, non intelligent) zombie or (again non intelligent) skeleton? I think i remember the soul suffering or something but i am not sure.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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leo1925 wrote:

I think i have read something about that somewhere but i don't remember:

What happens to the soul of a creature when you raise it as a (simple, non intelligent) zombie or (again non intelligent) skeleton? I think i remember the soul suffering or something but i am not sure.

When you make a mindless undead, only a tiny fragment of the victim's soul is used to animate the undead. The soul itself goes on to be judged normally, or if the soul has ALREADY been judged, the fragments of soul left behind in the body (like the scent of one's body in a discarded garment) is what's used. This fragment gives the mindless undead the instinct to kill and ability to follow orders despite being non-intelligent, and while it's not EVIL on the scale of turning someone into a vampire or a ghoul, it's still evil enough that animate dead has the evil descriptor.

The soul itself would suffer in a non-destructive but painful way. Maybe something akin to having a fingernail torn off.

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