A couple map questions

[Robert Thomson]

Not that I think I'm likely to make top 32, but with the round 2 turnaround being pretty quick, I'm working on map possibilities right now. My favorite is likely pushing the limits of the rules on size (without knowing the rules yet) and I'm trying to decide whether to just cross that off my list for now.

1) Since we know it's going to be a flip mat, is the standard measurement for that 30x24?

2) In past competitions, did it seem to be alright to focus on part of a bigger location, or should we be trying to do complete locations. (I ask because the location I'd like to do will be a stretch to fit into 30x24, and I think it loses some good details at that size with the compromises that would be required. Half of that location however...could make a good map. Anyone who knows the location would know the other half was missing though.)

[Robert Thomson]

I guess the other thing we won't know until new rules are announced is whether 5'=1" scale will be required. 10'=1" would solve everything for me on a 30x24 map.

[R Pickard]

A flip-mat is 30x24 and if they're specifying "flip map size," it means they want it to be potentially usable on an actual battle map with miniatures, meaning it would, IMO, be incredibly risky to presume any other scale than 1 inch = 5 feet.

My (unofficial, unsolicited and therefore totally discardable) advice?

Briefly jot down and sketch out your bigger map idea, because it's obviously something you're excited about, and it could be useful for SOMETHING, even if not round 2.

But THEN also generate more/different ideas for round 2 that fit within the flip mat size. 150' x 120' is not huge, but can still hold all kinds of stuff---let limitation free your creativity, not hold it back. Look at actual existing flip-mats and see the variety of things they depict for inspiration: islands, cathedrals, monasteries, small keeps, tunnels, dragon caves, bandit lairs, inns, prisons, pirate ships, etc. etc. etc. And even with all that there's a lot you could do--enchanted forests, all sorts of lairs or hiding places, vehicles, towers, etc. etc. etc.

Regarding the map being part of a larger location --- the wording of the so-far brief description of round to is contestants will be "asked to fill a flip-mat sized grid" -- so that means you have no room to draw anything other than what's within the flip mat. In past contests, YES, specifically for contests, sometimes you could draw a larger area and then specify a flip-mat sized area where an encounter would specifically occur, but the wording suggests there that is not an option. This however is only my presumption based on the existing and very brief, to be updated in future, descriptions on the RPSS blog posts.

Since you are given some wordage to briefly describe the area, you could however mention where your mapped location is in relation to a larger area. "This is the primary chamber in the lost tomb of Pharaoh Bob, reachable only by traversing a maze of twisty passages, all alike..." or "this is the town hall of Bob Town, located in Place" or "this bakery is carved into an enormous petrified donut, accessible by a staircase made from crystallized frosting...."

[Eric Morton]

Where was it announced that the Round 2 map is a flip mat?

[Wren Brown]

Eric Morton wrote:

Where was it announced that the Round 2 map is a flip mat?

In this blog post it says round 2 will be to fill in a flip mat sized grid.

[Monica Marlowe]

Thrawn007 wrote:

I guess the other thing we won't know until new rules are announced is whether 5'=1" scale will be required. 10'=1" would solve everything for me on a 30x24 map.

Chances are you will choose your own scale, but I am only guessing here.

[R Pickard]

My only thought on choosing your own scale -- which is what we did for our round 2, but we were not restricted to flip-mat sized grid (that was round 4) -- is that if it's specifically "flip mat sized" then they probably want something usable for an encounter, which pretty much requires 1"=5' scale.

Buuuuut it's possible they want you to use that template so maps aren't all different sizes (like we were restricted to what, something like an 8x10 size page in round 2?) but don't actually care about the scale at all.

Which goes back to---draw your idea, and draw other ideas. Make backup plans upon backups and backup your backups.

[Monica Marlowe]

R Pickard wrote:

My only thought on choosing your own scale -- which is what we did for our round 2, but we were not restricted to flip-mat sized grid (that was round 4) -- is that if it's specifically "flip mat sized" then they probably want something usable for an encounter, which pretty much requires 1"=5' scale.

Buuuuut it's possible they want you to use that template so maps aren't all different sizes (like we were restricted to what, something like an 8x10 size page in round 2?) but don't actually care about the scale at all.

Which goes back to---draw your idea, and draw other ideas. Make backup plans upon backups and backup your backups.

Oh! You're right. I'm almost certain then it will be a 1=5' scale. It will probably be an "encounter" style map.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

It will be a 1 square = 5' scale "encounter" style map. We'll be putting up a grid folks can download before Round 2 officially starts. You'll get 50 words of prose to go with your map, if you want to give some context. I'll talk about it a bit in tomorrow's blog post, with enough details for people to get started.

[Robert Thomson]

Thanks for the heads up on this. Let's me shelve one map for sure. It's a location I really want to do a detailed map for, but this isn't the right time.

Good thing I have several other map concepts with initial idea sketches.

[Eric Morton]

I have a map-related question based on today's blog:

Are the compass rose and legend included inside the 24 x 36 grid as part of the finished Flip Mat, or are they kept separate from the 24 x 36 grid as unpublished instructions for the Flip Mat cartographer?

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Inside the grid. Part of the map itself.

[JPSTOD]

Got several ideas...

[Joey Haeck]

Making maps is one of my favorite things to do as a GM. There are a lot of reasons I would love to make the Top 32, but the chance to be a part of the map round is high on the list.

[Joel Flank]

With it being a 24x36 flip-mat style grid, would that preclude inset sketches of the mapped area or side-views? (not that I'm confident in my ability to artistically pull such a feat off, but in past map rounds, often maps that included things like this were much easier to parse).

[R Pickard]

Bearing in mind I obviously have no dog in this race (I just love any excuse to talk about mapping) and likewise have no insight into the rules, etc. etc. caveat caveat caveat etc. etc. etc.

It's probably an encounter map, intended to be drawn onto a flip-mat. Think about encounter maps, battle maps, and flip-mats you've seen....

[hewhocaves]

hrmm..

The flip-mat style grid is going to be particularly challenging. A delicate combination of uniqueness and replayability. Definitely not making it easy for the round 2 players.

[Robert Thomson]

I actually think it made things easier if I get that far (doubtful but feeling much better after voting). Flip mat means I have to be a lot more focused. Limitations can be a good thing.

[hewhocaves]

hrmm...

It just occurred to me... we're only designing one side of the flip mat, yes? One map, not two.

[R Pickard]

The rules state you are filling a single flip-mat sized grid.

[JPSTOD]

Looking forward to seeing some good maps.

Time for people to do some new Ideas...A Chance to Snag some extra Inns, Taverns, Magic Shops, Markets, Outdoor Venues such as Camps, Water crossings, Mystical Markers...

You can never have to many Maps in a game ! ! ! !
I think this should have been round 1 instead of creating an Item :)

As I most likely won't use maybe 95% of the items moving forward in the Comp from round 1 :(

[JPSTOD]

Only thing I don't see defined yet is DPI...
I usually do 50 per 5 ft...some like 100 per 5 foot.

[Wren Brown]

JPSTOD wrote:

Only thing I don't see defined yet is DPI...

I usually do 50 per 5 ft...some like 100 per 5 foot.

It will probably be at least 300dpi. That is what the map round was last year.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

The contest is to provide a sketch that can be used to create an encounter flip-map. Don't do something that would;t work with the flip-map format. I'm not going to go into everything that can conceivably mean, but obviously if you just drew a picture of adorable baby pandas across the grid that would be DQ'd, even if they were really cute baby pandas.
If, on the other hand, it was two enormous stone statues of baby lands and you were presenting the Shrine of the Baby Panda in the Dragon Empire that might not be a winning map, but it's be a legitimate entry.

[Curaigh]

*scratches Tien Panda Temple off list of possibles*

[Taylor Hubler]

Will there be something that narrows the focus of the map's theme, such as "urban" or "related to giants"?

[JPSTOD]

Taylor Hubler wrote:

Will there be something that narrows the focus of the map's theme, such as "urban" or "related to giants"?

Lets hope not....

[Jacob W. Michaels]

I believe Owen has said he doesn't currently anticipate any further restrictions on the maps.

[Arnil]

I've got a question regarding maps and the whole contest in general really. Does it help to have your map follow the same theme as your round one submission? And then later including your map in your adventure? See cause i have a cool clock idea for a map but i wasn't one of the many clock based magic items so should i change my map idea? Ill come up with back ups anyway to be safe since the official rules aren't out yet.

[Jeff Lee]

I recall contestants trying to follow themes in the past without much success. Besides, it's not going to help limiting your creativity to one single theme. Showcasing the breadth of your imagination and talent is part of the contest.

[Arnil]

Okay good point! Thank you!

[Jacob W. Michaels]

I disagree a bit with Jeff, in that I don't think we've seen too many people follow strong themes throughout the contest (maybe it's becoming more common as the "twists" often have shown a theme, such as 2013's River Kingdoms feel, 2014's urban feel and especially last year's more-focused Darklands theme). Part of the lack is because you only really get to see it in the final couple rounds, as Rounds 2 and 3 just have less available to build on.

Of the people I think most known for using a theme:
Steve Miller got knocked badly for it, but IMO that was as much because many felt he didn't respond to the criticisms of his Round 4 pitch when it formed part of his Round 5 pitch as opposed to the fact that he used a theme.

On the other hand, last year's winner, Monica Marlowe, got a lot of praise for her R2 map and I think that her use of it and her R4 encounter in her adventure pitch was well-received.

[Jeff Lee]

Jacob makes some valid points. That said, there's no reason why you can't use a really great idea for your map just because it doesn't have anything to do with your Round 1 item. (Unless the judges throw in a last minute twist that says there must be a connection between the map and the item.)

[Curaigh]

Jeff Lee wrote:

Jacob makes some valid points. That said, there's no reason why you can't use a really great idea for your map just because it doesn't have anything to do with your Round 1 item. (Unless the judges throw in a last minute twist that says there must be a connection between the map and the item.)

That would actually be a really cool twist, Jeff. We've not seen R1 tied to other rounds, though I think in several later rounds some contestants used R1 items, most notably in villains. But maps & items... I shall have to explore how to make that work with my R1 entry....

*adds Tien Panda Temple to list of possibles* :)

[Jacob W. Michaels]

* Adds magic item shop to list of possibilities *

There; tied my Round 1 and 2 entries together very nicely...

:)

[Curaigh]

Jacob W. Michaels wrote:

* Adds magic item shop to list of possibilities *

There; tied my Round 1 and 2 entries together very nicely...

:)

lol

Sigh.

*crosses magic shop off list of possibles*

EDIT: *adds thieves guild's cartography stash to list of possibles*

[Robert Thomson]

What I'm actually wondering now is if we are designing a flip mat, or designing a flip mat sized map. Big difference since the flip mat doesn't have a legend and such. It just has interesting terrain that can be used for a number of different encounters.

Basically, will we be designing for the specific, or the generic.

One is more useful for adventure writing specifically (so I'd assume that is the direction we'll go), but the other gives non-adventure product design options too. Versatility can be a good thing.

[MindXing]

I'm not sure if I'm going to the next round or not but I know that if I do get into the 2nd round I don't want to have only 3 days to design a map from scratch. So I'm getting started on ideas now.

The thing that's holding me up at the moment is that I don't know if the map should be generic or specific (as Thrawn007 posted). I know that the layout format is flip-map style but what about the content? Most of the flip-maps I've seen are fairly generic (e.g. forest, wizard's den, etc.). On the other hand, encounter maps (even if they are at the flip-map size) are specific to that encounter. It is true that the specific map could be used in different situations but it could be a little jarring to the PCs to find themselves on the exact same map specific map but for an entirely different encounter.

My third option is to design a map that is both generic and specific. I'm afraid that if I go this route I might end up with a map that is too mediocre. Maybe this is where the _superstar_ is separated from the rest of the designers....

In any case, I'm looking forward to more info about the map round.

[R Pickard]

I would GUESS that the map would be an encounter map and someone in round 4 would have to chose from round 2 maps to use in their encounter.

So, IF I AM CORRECT (and I may not be), it would be an encounter map first and foremost.

Note a lot of flip-mats ARE also specific adventure locations in Paizo's adventure paths and modules, however: the pirate ship is the PC's pirate ship in "Skull and Shackles;" one of the first dungeon maps is the entire dungeon in "Crypt of the Everflame"; the bandit outpost is a key location early on in "Kingmaker"; etc. So good flip-mats are detailed enough to serve as specific locations while also being versatile enough to sell as products that a GM may use for a number of purposes.

Just make lots and lots of maps, basically.

[Robert Thomson]

Yes. "Generic maps" can absolutely be used to represent specific locations. The big difference in designing the specific vs generic map is whether we should label features and such. If we are building the generic template as the map, then it's up to the encounter designer to decide what the important features that need to be labeled are.

I would just hate to assume that, and then find out that the cartographer expects lots of notes on the map to help them along in visualizing it.

[hewhocaves]

R Pickard wrote:

Note a lot of flip-mats ARE also specific adventure locations in Paizo's adventure paths and modules, however: the pirate ship is the PC's pirate ship in "Skull and Shackles;" one of the first dungeon maps is the entire dungeon in "Crypt of the Everflame"; the bandit outpost is a key location early on in "Kingmaker"; etc. So good flip-mats are detailed enough to serve as specific locations while also being versatile enough to sell as products that a GM may use for a number of purposes.

Exactly, its got to be specific enough to go into a module or AP, yet vague enough that it could be used as a generic substitute.

I have no data, but my thinking is that if you're going to do another "forest crossroad" or "city temple" then it should at least be different enough to distinguish it from the already produced Paizo product. Lol. And there's a lot of flip-mats out there already!

[Robert Thomson]

Once the "flip map" was revealed as next round, my first step was to make a list of all of the paizo published flip maps, sort them by terrain type, and then look for gaps. Then once I had a few ideas of what to make, I checked any maps that sounded remotely similar to make sure they didn't cover the same subject matter.

[hewhocaves]

Thrawn007 wrote:

Once the "flip map" was revealed as next round, my first step was to make a list of all of the paizo published flip maps, sort them by terrain type, and then look for gaps. Then once I had a few ideas of what to make, I checked any maps that sounded remotely similar to make sure they didn't cover the same subject matter.

Gah! Your organizational skills will be the doom of our people! ;) (I did the same thing)

[Robert Thomson]

I guess I figure...
1) IF I could make 32
2) IF my map is good and fills a product gap
3) IF I don't go much farther than maps

THEN maybe the map itself could be a usable product down the road

[Jacob W. Michaels]

I would suggest looking through the previous map rounds and even encounter rounds to see what people have said about maps.

If it were me, I'd be planning a map of a specific location. This is Superstar. No one wants to see an inn. That doesn't mean you can't map an inn, but it can't just be "an inn." Give me the Inn of the Last Leaf and make it spectacular. Make me WANT to use that map even if I turn it into my own inn or dungeon or house or shop or whatever for my campaign.

[R Pickard]

Thrawn007 wrote:

I would just hate to assume that, and then find out that the cartographer expects lots of notes on the map to help them along in visualizing it.

I would suggest looking at last year's round 2 (ninja'ed by Jacob with the same advice!) - we were only given 8 words for a map title and were allowed to include a legend (I am not sure what your rules are regarding a legend) so everything had to be apparent from the map itself or the legend. Reading comments on 2015's Round 2, especially from those by the cartographer-judge, Robert Lazzaretti, will also help with might might need to be obvious. While those maps are often larger than flip-mat size, it doesn't matter for depicting what's on them clearly.

Also look at any years' round 4 maps for those encounter maps, and what ones were considered most useful.

[Jacob W. Michaels]

Per Owen, the legend has to be part of the map.

[JPSTOD]

Seems to be some discrepancy in what they want in Round 2

Someone say a sketch or is it an Actual Flip Mat...
24x30 others say 24x36
no official DPI yet...no biggie that can be done in mere minutes..

I have several ready to go..

[pH unbalanced]

JPSTOD wrote:

no official DPI yet...

What does that mean? Dots per inch? That's like a printing thing, right? What relevence does that have?

I'm *extremely* graphically challenged -- this particular round terrifies me.

I'm tempted to take a blank flipmat, draw on it, and take a picture of it.

[Jeff Lee]

pH unbalanced wrote:

JPSTOD wrote:

no official DPI yet...

What does that mean? Dots per inch? That's like a printing thing, right? What relevence does that have?

I'm *extremely* graphically challenged -- this particular round terrifies me.

I'm tempted to take a blank flipmat, draw on it, and take a picture of it.

That would probably work very well, since you'd get the exact size map they're looking for, and photos typically give decent resolution. DPI will determine how well it views as an image on screen as well as affecting printing.