Hello everyone, I'm thinking of making a sort of stereotypical elf character in terms of blending together the archery and magic aspects of the race.
As such I wanted to start out as a Myrmidarch Magus (try saying that 10 times fast) and going into Arcane Archer.
My stat array is: 18, 16, 16, 15, 13, 12
Is Arcane Archer a good idea for the character, or should I stick to the magus?
I think he meant that as an either/or question. Magus don't make very good archers though. There really isn't a good full class option for being an arcane archer.
Id say for allmost all characters out there thinking of going into Arcane Archer, instead going into Mymidarch Magus is the better way.
Arcane Archer is a weak class. Like almost all "Prestige" (lol) Classes in Pathfinder.
Ranger 6 for Improved Precise Shot without having to have BAB 11, then Mymirdarch is way better then going into AA. And you even get some nice nature skills and abilities, as well as magiced-up arrows via the Arcane Pool from the Magus.
I don't see Myrmidarch Magus/Arcane Archer as being bad, but it does have drawbacks.
As a magus you'd have 5 feats before going into arcane archer, compared with 9 as a fighter 6/wiz 1, or 7 as a ranger 6/wiz 1, which are probably a little more traditional ways of entry. Of course, those options don't have near as much spellcasting up front either, so whether this is really a drawback for you is up for debate.
As an archer, spell combat becomes effectively useless for you since it specifies melee only, unless you can get your GM to houserule from melee only to ranged only (I probably wouldn't). This one, as a magus, is pretty big.
The thing about prestige classes that continue a casting class's casting is that they're only as powerful as the casting they pick up... and Magus casting isn't that powerful when detached from Magus class features. Arcane Archer is really just for powerful martial archers who want to take a little bit of Wizard and grow that into a little more magic.
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Arcane Archer can be good, and they have a trick that no one else can reproduce, which is shooting something with an anti-magic field.
The best way to build one IMO is Zen Archer 6/Empyreal Sorcerer 1/AA x.
If you want to be a magus base, you are better off staying pure magus.
Another option would be a Grenadier Alchemist. Explosive Missile + Alchemical Weapon + Alchemical Ammunition is pretty nice.
The most casting option would be
Full BAB 2
Caster 8
Arcane Archer 10
This would give you the spells of a 15th level wizard and a BAB of 16
You could take it the other way and chase after BAB.
Full BAB 5
Caster 2
Arcane Archer 10
Eldritch Knight 3
This would give you the spells of an 11th level wizard and a BAB of 19.
Grenadier Alchemist is actually something I hadn't considered, but given my characters backstory would actually fit pretty well!
So from what I'm hearing, magus is just an overall bad way to do the magic archer thing then?
The only archer magus is the Myrmidarch, which is just so-so in my opinion. But Magus doesn't mix well with AA at all.
AA isn't really bad, but seems to take forever to get off of the ground. Those requirements are brutal.
So here's what I have so far
Elf Alchemist/Grenadier
Str: 12
Dex: 20
Con: 13
Int: 18
Wis: 16
Cha: 13
Feats: Point-Blank Shot, Throw Anything
Racial Traits: Elven Immunities, Keen Senses, Silent Hunter, Low-Light Vision
Traits: Silent Hunter, Reckless
Skills: +10 Acro, +9 Craft (Alch), +8 Know (Nat), +9 Perc, +4 S. Motive, +8 Spellcraft, +9 Stealth, +5 UMD
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Myrmidarch is a little weird, it doesn't work nearly as well as it should, at least as a pure archer. Myrmidarch is switch hitter, not a pure archer.
I personally think the best path with arcane archer is to use magic in a pre-buffing kind of way. If you mix in some eldest knight and knock off a few levels of aa, and with some clever retraining you could end up 16 bab and 9th level spells (iirc).
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Myrmidarch and Zen archer each require 8 levels to meet the BAB6 requirement.
Having played a Trapper Ranger/Transmuter/AA, I found the strengths to be:
Lots of skill points, enough to fill the scout role,
Nearly full BAB,
The ability to turn a normal bow into a +10 Weapon. The AA picks up a bow and it becomes a +1 Holy, energy burst longbow. Then he casts GMW on the bow. On the arrows, casts Extended dazing flame arrow, Extended admixed flaming arrow and wears deliquescent gloves to get a +3 holy, Dazing, Flaming, Frost, Corrosive, Shocking burst weapon. (>+10)
Also at AA3 you can use pyrotechnics with a single standard action.
And a protection from arrows spell combined with levitate makes a good defense.
Take the Magical Knack or Magical Lineage(flame arrow) Trait
Edit: I would use this array
Str: 15
Dex: 20
Con: 14
Int: 18
Wis: 12
Cha: 13
Use your transmuter +1 to an ability on strength and buy an adaptive bow.
As such I wanted to start out as a Myrmidarch Magus (try saying that 10 times fast) and going into Arcane Archer.
Is Arcane Archer a good idea for the character, or should I stick to the magus?
A 2-3 level dip in arcane archer (for Imbue Spell and possibly Enhance Arrows (Elemental)) is not a bad return for myrmidarch magus. It adds some versatility, allowing area spells to be delivered by an arrow or ranged touch spells with Ranged Spellstrike (as long as your GM allows Ranged Spellstrike to be used with a bow). Plus, Enhance Arrows (Elemental) stacks with enhancing a bow ("any weapon he is holding") with the magus' Arcane Pool (as long as you don't try to "double up" on the same element).
Take 8-9 levels of magus, then 2-3 levels of arcane archer, and then magus for the rest.
Arcane Archer can be good, and they have a trick that no one else can reproduce, which is shooting something with an anti-magic field.
The best way to build one IMO is Zen Archer 6/Empyreal Sorcerer 1/AA x.
[Fighter or ranger*] 1/wizard 6/eldritch knight 2/arcane archer 3/eldritch knight +8. BAB +17 and spell progression as a 17th level wizard (9th level spells). This is achievable using just the Core Rulebook.
Most of the arcane archer tricks are less useful than more/better spells, IMO.
*- Fighter for the bonus feat, ranger for more skills and the ability to use wands of cure light wounds without Use Magic Device checks.
I disagree with those who say the arcane archer is not worth it.
We had a player in our Second Darkness game. She was allowed to multiclass with the Scout from 3.5 Complete Adventurer and Magus.
The player wanted the character to have a high perception. By the end of the game (level 15) she could roll a total of 50. Everyone around the table joked she could see through walls.
She used skirmish effectively.
It was a well built character.
I disagree with those who say the arcane archer is not worth it.
We had a player in our Second Darkness game. She was allowed to multiclass with the Scout from 3.5 Complete Adventurer and Magus.
The player wanted the character to have a high perception. By the end of the game (level 15) she could roll a total of 50. Everyone around the table joked she could see through walls.
She used skirmish effectively.
It was a well built character.
Okay, but your anecdotal evidence starts with "She was allowed to.."
Any more suggestions? I've still got a week or two before I finalize my character
I think the best caster/archer in the game is fighter1/wizard5/EK10. I've played it myself and it's really excellent at all levels relying on how OP archery is for the first few levels and then leaning more into magic to buff up and compensate for missing stuff later. You end up with 9th levels spells. You can even dip 4 of AA at some point so you can drop the anti magic shell cheese on casters.
The Witch can actually make a surprisingly effective base for a caster/archer by taking the Strength Patron to get Divine Favor; there are many things they lack from the Wizard list, but the Wizard list has nothing that even comes close to +1 ab and damage per 3 CL. Well, other than Heroism, but the Witch gets that too.
The only good part about being an arcane archer is dropping anti-magic fields on people at 400'. If you can't do that then it isn't worth going into.
Any opinions between a Grenadier Alchemist archer and doing the Fighter/Wizard/EK thing?
The only good part about being an arcane archer is dropping anti-magic fields on people at 400'. If you can't do that then it isn't worth going into.
Color spray, create pit, frost fall, web, greater thunderstomp, hydraulic torrent, lightning bolt, pellet blast, spiked pit, stinking cloud, acid pit, black tentacles, confusion, detonate, obsidian flow, shout, etc. are all useful spells to imbue into an arrow well before antimagic field.
Even at high level, an Intensified Maximized detonate (8th level spell slot) can deal 120 points (15d6, Maximized), your choice of energy damage (acid, cold, fire, or electricity), in a 30 ft radius burst in addition to the arrow damage (and a Quickened true strike pretty much guarantees a hit).
I think arcane archer is a fine way to have both archery and some Spell power at higher levels. If you are archer first and arcane second it can be fine, but most of the time i think will be spend full attacking with the bow like every other archer.
The only good part about being an arcane archer is dropping anti-magic fields on people at 400'. If you can't do that then it isn't worth going into.Color spray, create pit, frost fall, web, greater thunderstomp, hydraulic torrent, lightning bolt, pellet blast, spiked pit, stinking cloud, acid pit, black tentacles, confusion, detonate, obsidian flow, shout, etc. are all useful spells to imbue into an arrow well before antimagic field.
Even at high level, an Intensified Maximized detonate (8th level spell slot) can deal 120 points (15d6, Maximized), your choice of energy damage (acid, cold, fire, or electricity), in a 30 ft radius burst in addition to the arrow damage (and a Quickened true strike pretty much guarantees a hit).
At 15th level 120 damage (Reflex half!!) is a waste of a full round action. The fact that you wasted a 5th level slot on a quickened true strike just adds insult to injury.
Most of the spells you indicate are pretty worthless at the level they come online for the arcane archer. Black Tentacles is kinda neat, but all you did was extend the range of a spell that is already cast at range... So meh.
120 points (15d6, Maximized)
<sigh> Make that "15d8, Maximized."
Anyway, if you want a high level arcane archer to deal damage, then brawler (snakebite striker) 1/[alchemist (vivisectionist), ninja, or rogue] 1/wizard (probably Evocation/Admixture school) 4/arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/arcane archer +2 can apply +7d6 Sneak Attack damage to both the arrow and (with Surprise Spells) to the area spell; +12 BAB (not great, but vs. flat-footed opponents and/or targeting touch AC with ranged touch spells, not absolutely horrible) and spell progression as a 17th level wizard. Heroism and Quickened true strike (with a high Dex and Improved Initiative) can make the first attack (i.e., against flat-footed opponents that haven't acted, yet) in combat devastating (even without playing games with Stealth and invisibility):
Arrow damage +7d6 to one target, plus 120 +7d6 (save for half) to all within 30 ft. Against many enemies, the rest of the fight can be described as "mopping up."
At 15th level 120 damage (Reflex half!!) is a waste of a full round action.
Imbue Arrow: "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." Even with a swift action to cast Quickened true strike (on top of a +17 BAB, this is more to nearly guarantee a hit from maximum range even against a high AC opponent, not a "I need it to have a reasonable change of hitting"), the arcane archer still has a move action left.
120 damage to all in a 30 ft radius, not just the target hit by the arrow. That adds up to a lot of total damage against large groups (i.e., not just one or two high CR foes that the party can usually overwhelm anyway because of more total actions): 5 opponents take 300-600 total, 6 opponents take 360-720 total, etc. An arcane archer, unlike a normal archer, does more damage as the number of foes increase.
Anyway the big benefit (IMO) is to mix damage with area battlefield control in the same (i.e., shoot a spiked pit imbued arrow at the BBEG in round 1, then a hydraulic torrent imbued arrow to knock some of the minions into the pit in round 2, etc.). Area damage is useful for thinning out mobs so the party martials can concentrate massive damage on one target (their strength).
At 15th level 120 damage (Reflex half!!) is a waste of a full round action.Imbue Arrow: "A spell cast in this way uses its standard casting time and the arcane archer can fire the arrow as part of the casting." Even with a swift action to cast Quickened true strike (on top of a +17 BAB, this is more to nearly guarantee a hit from maximum range even against a high AC opponent, not a "I need it to have a reasonable change of hitting"), the arcane archer still has a move action left.
120 damage to all in a 30 ft radius, not just the target hit by the arrow. That adds up to a lot of total damage against large groups (i.e., not just one or two high CR foes that the party can usually overwhelm anyway because of more total actions): 5 opponents take 300-600 total, 6 opponents take 360-720 total, etc. An arcane archer, unlike a normal archer, does more damage as the number of foes increase.
Anyway the big benefit (IMO) is to mix damage with area battlefield control in the same (i.e., shoot a spiked pit imbued arrow at the BBEG in round 1, then a hydraulic torrent imbued arrow to knock some of the minions into the pit in round 2, etc.). Area damage is useful for thinning out mobs so the party martials can concentrate massive damage on one target (their strength).
There are definately unique opportunities the AA allows. I just don't think they are worth it.
Dragonchess is raising some good points with Imbue Arrow, but I need more help on the 'getting there' part and staying viable on my way to becoming an Arcane Archer
Alright, so the time to choose has come, so after reading over everything I think I'll be sticking to the Grenadier archer idea
Would still appreciate any ideas or feedback for it!