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I mean, really, enough is enough.
In any world where there are non-martial ways to engage in combat, "martials" never, ever, ever, get "nice things"
In the X-men universe, how many martial "I punch you in the face" characters can stand up to to characters like Professor X or Magneto?
In the Marvel universe, the "martials" who are by far the most effective are the ones who can fly and have ranged attacks that are either magical (Thor's hammer and Captain America's always-returning shield) or super-technical (Iron Man). Sure, Hulk is nearly unstoppable, but he's almost just there to kick in doors, for comic relief, and/or to do ground combat with some nearly-unstoppable ground juggernaut the enemy might bring (but really could have been handled by the rest of the team if they didn't just ignore it entirely).
In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).
In our own real world, you never see soldiers take the field of battle armed with swords and axes and trying to go all "martial" against enemy riflemen and machine guns. And you never see soldiers with just guns perform well against high-tech, long range artillery, air-support, and high-tech combat gear (see the true story of Blackhawk Down for what 100 modern soldiers with high tech equipment and air support can do to over a thousand gun-wielding Somali "martials").
In Boxing, or MMA, or other "martial" sports, they don't let one guy bring in a gun, or a crossbow, or any other ranged attack. They also don't let one guy bring in high-tech armor. They also don't let one guy bring in performance enhancing drugs. Why not? Any of those things would absolutely make the contest unfair for the non-ranged un-buffed "martial" guy.
In other words, that last example makes it pretty clear that even in the real world, we have to make artificial limitations just to make "martial" sports fair. Without those limitations, the "martial" contestants would always lose to the guys who bring "non-martial" advantages.
So, yeah, martials don't get nice things.
That's how it works.
Time to move on and quit complaining about it.
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well, in basically any game ever martials always get some way to be on par with non-martial combatants. and well, this is a game.
so how many punching characters can stand up to magneto? every single one in a super hero MMO.
Martials can be extraordinary, which means beyond our limited possibilities down here on this plane of ours.
P.S. Jedi are martials with supernatural bonus abilities, that apparently due to midoclorians(or whatever) are entirely just extraordinary.
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High level characters can literally air drop from orbit and land on their faces with zero chance of the fall killing them. Or drink gallons of poison with about zero percent chance of dying. Or take brief swims in a lava pool and come out alive. Yet those exceptional, clearly not average people still must be held to the same standards of what the common folk in the real world can do.
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Oh no, I guess my poor pouncing barbarian/Rogue really is just the worst thing ever...
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
I suppose all those casters I pounced and ripped apart in round 1 of combat really just mopped the floor with me.
This thread is shenanigans.
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everyone take a complimentary ring of fire immunity, if you want it, so you may more easily traverse the impending flame war.
Did you just say Luke is better than Han because Han is the martial?
Because your earlier example that you need a ranged weapon ... and your later example that you need a ranged weapon...
I mean.. what?
Well Luke is a sort of Gish though... i mean, with light sabers, preternatural reflexes, the ability to see a little into the future, and telekinesis i mean... its kinda unfair. This just proves ththat:
Martials<Ranged<<<<<<<<<Magic
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If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
edit: to top it off, he's flying, has mirror image cast, and had any other compliment of abilities to impede your progress.
oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
Too bad he's already dead.
Feel free to stand next to that Barbarian and cast a full round summon, though.
Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*
Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
then congrats on the ambush, i guess when the wizard ambushes you he'll just gate you to another plane, or drop a glob of lava on you from orbit, or summon 1+1d4 enemies around you, while he's still several feat in the air.
hell dominate person and make you murder your friends.
actually you know what he'll start with a geas in which you have to make 200 laps around a tree while he prepares/
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Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!then congrats on the ambush, i guess when the wizard ambushes you he'll just gate you to another plane, or drop a glob of lava on you from orbit, or summon 1+1d4 enemies around you, while he's still several feat in the air.
hell dominate person and make you murder your friends.
*laughs off the will save due to human favored class boosted Superstition*
*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.
Is it Martial versus Caster time already? I think the holiday messed up the schedule.
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1) The Juggernaut for starters.
My rejoinder is: Why can't Colossus learn to be immune to psionic attack sin his metal state (you're trying to read an I-beam!) or to make his metal form non-magnetic?
Because martials don't get nice things.
2) Yesss, martials should be effective at all eight ranges of combat (Personal/grapple, fist range, melee weapon range, extended melee weapon range, throwing weapon range, projectile range, extreme projectile range, artillery range). Alas, they are not, because martials don't get nice things.
3) See above. The hulk, however, is nigh immune to psionics and magic, has impressive AoE attacks, can move VERY fast if need be (he can literally jump at multiple Machs)i.e. has movement options, doesn't need to breathe, heals himself, and there's literally nothing that can stop him face to face. He's not comedy relief - the whole fighting team is being carried along by him. He's actually the CENTERPOINT of the attack, if not the commander (and he's one of the top ten smart guys on the planet, so he can BE the commander!)
But jeez, look how long his career took before he actually got real martial training. Planet Hulk! Because, you know, martials can't get nice things.
(points at Spiderman). Took fifty years for shang-chi to actually give Peter some martial arts pointers. Because it might actually make him more effective in a fight. And the Scarlet Spider's web toys? when have we seen them again? Nah... web cluster bombs would make sense.
But hey, martials can't have nice things, even with a 225 IQ. They can't even hold down a decent job!
And you know, Cap America in core marvel is an officer in the US Military and doesn't even carry a sidearm. Because that would give him a long range attack. You have to get into Ultimates before he's immune to telepathy and willing to wear some form of powered armor and carry a firearm, like any proper soldier would love to do.
4) Ah, caster-martial disparity in Science fiction! WHo knew? Because, you know, martials can't wander around with cloned or techno-ysalmari, and for some reason cortosis armor/weapons isn't a thing when fighting jedi.
It also helps that jedi get to wave around a self-contained fusion explosion that is somehow stronger then a blaster despite lasting longer, using less energy, and employing the same power pack. It's the most technologically implausible thing in the setting, combining the power of a blaster and force field, and doesn't even set the atmosphere on fire!
Because martials don't get nice things. You know, like something as simple as a personal force field that shocks/shuts down light saber fields, or nulls the Force in a general area. Nope, nope.
5) Soldiers use what is effective. You show me spellcasters in the real world, and I can guarantee you they get better toys. Just be aware that every soldier is equipped by the lowest common bidder with the minimum cost of gear that is sufficient for him to do his job.
Then go ask how many billions get spent on planes, missiles, ships and stuff, vs the common soldier.
6) Equality between martials is a given. Equality between martials and others? Nope. We set up limits on martials to give skill and dedication to training a chance to shine, as opposed to who can burn out their body faster, or big man against small man match-ups.
==Aelryinth
Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!then congrats on the ambush, i guess when the wizard ambushes you he'll just gate you to another plane, or drop a glob of lava on you from orbit, or summon 1+1d4 enemies around you, while he's still several feat in the air.
hell dominate person and make you murder your friends.
actually you know what he'll start with a geas in which you have to make 200 laps around a tree while he prepares/
How bout them will saves, eh?
So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.
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You can go ahead and think that martials cannot match up to other classes, but the fact of the matter is, Tucker's Kobolds is always an option, against anyone.
It doesn't matter how badass you think you are, if you can be overwhelmed by superior tactics or numbers.
That goes for everyone.
|
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I mean, really, enough is enough.
In any world where there are non-martial ways to engage in combat, "martials" never, ever, ever, get "nice things"
In the X-men universe, how many martial "I punch you in the face" characters can stand up to to characters like Professor X or Magneto?
In the Marvel universe, the "martials" who are by far the most effective are the ones who can fly and have ranged attacks that are either magical (Thor's hammer and Captain America's always-returning shield) or super-technical (Iron Man). Sure, Hulk is nearly unstoppable, but he's almost just there to kick in doors, for comic relief, and/or to do ground combat with some nearly-unstoppable ground juggernaut the enemy might bring (but really could have been handled by the rest of the team if they didn't just ignore it entirely).
In Star Wars, Han Solo is a really good "martial", even with a ranged attack, but Luke could defeat him in the blink of an eye even after training with Ben Kenobi for only the length of a single trip from Tatooine to Alderaan (where Luke learned to deflect blasters with the Force).
In our own real world, you never see soldiers take the field of battle armed with swords and axes and trying to go all "martial" against enemy riflemen and machine guns. And you never see soldiers with just guns perform well against high-tech, long range artillery, air-support, and high-tech combat gear (see the true story of Blackhawk Down for what 100 modern soldiers with high tech equipment and air support can do to over a thousand gun-wielding Somali "martials").
In Boxing, or MMA, or other "martial" sports, they don't let one guy bring in a gun, or a crossbow, or any other ranged attack. They also don't let one guy bring in high-tech armor. They also don't let one guy bring in performance enhancing drugs. Why not? Any of those things would absolutely make the contest unfair for the non-ranged un-buffed "martial" guy.
In other words, that last example makes it pretty clear that even in the real world, we...
In DC, Batman >>>>>>>> Everyone. Batman has 0 magic, 0 super powers, and 0 super high tech. All he has are some rather mundane gadgets, and a nice car. Yet, he wins against everyone, even when he gets stranded in time.
In Hyperborea, Conan >>>>>>>> Everyone. Demons, Sorcerers, and Mad Gods all fall to Conan's blade or axe.
Martial characters should not be second class citizens, just because magic exists. This is a fantasy game, and people should be able to play Conan or the g+# d**n batman without being outclassed by everyone with access to spells.
Anything above 6th level is past the peak limits of normal humans in the real world anyway.
20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!
Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how would a bull rush effect this scenario?
You can go ahead and think that martials cannot match up to other classes, but the fact of the matter is, Tucker's Kobolds is always an option, against anyone.
It doesn't matter how badass you think you are, if you can be overwhelmed by superior tactics or numbers.
That goes for everyone.
It most certainly doesn't go for everyone. Eventually AC can be unbeatable versus little dudes. Saves can be trivial. DR can be a thing. Or even just a little bit of healing could be there as an option. Superior numbers don't mean much when each unit only has a 5% chance to hit and that damage can be fully negated or healed away easily should it begin to accumulate.
20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how would a bull rush effect this scenario?
I don't think it would have any effect as you are essentially trying to ram a Wall of Force. It ain't going anywhere :P
How bout them will saves, eh?Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!then congrats on the ambush, i guess when the wizard ambushes you he'll just gate you to another plane, or drop a glob of lava on you from orbit, or summon 1+1d4 enemies around you, while he's still several feat in the air.
hell dominate person and make you murder your friends.
actually you know what he'll start with a geas in which you have to make 200 laps around a tree while he prepares/
Geas while a 10 minute caster time, has no saving throw, and with scry can monitor your progress and put himself exactly 10 minutes ahead of your journey. if you're sleeping, then he just casts a silent one.
if you NEED a standard action i'll cast maze, and then prepare with the time i have (hope you don't have a negative int mod cause then you give me 10 minutes), also no save. wonder how long he can last against a fully buffed caster.
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20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how would a bull rush effect this scenario?
A ring of blinking gets around it nicely, and then you're in a dome stuck with a raging barbarian.
==Aelryinth
20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how would a bull rush effect this scenario?
A ring of blinking gets around it nicely, and then you're in a dome stuck with a raging barbarian.
==Aelryinth
I like the thought, but Blinking creatures are still affected by force effects so it seems you wouldn't be able to try to get through. On top of that, the dome encloses a single 5ft square (i.e. the caster's square) and you cannot share spaces with enemies as far as I know. It is clearly a hemisphere though, so if you had burrow you could go underneath and attack up with the 50% miss chance for total concealment.
In DC, Batman >>>>>>>> Everyone. Batman has 0 magic, 0 super powers, and 0 super high tech. All he has are some rather mundane gadgets, and a nice car. Yet, he wins against everyone, even when he gets stranded in time.Hero points.
Lots and lots and f@##ing lots of hero points.
Actually Batman has some of the highest human level tech on the planet, and access to any/all of it. HE can also make preparations on immense scale...Waynecorp provided most of the comps for the JLA satellite, for instance. And you don't think those bat-vehicles are cheap, do you?
Virtually unlimited wealth IS a super-power. Just ask Tony Stark, or Mr. Fantastic, or Dr. Doom, or Lex Luthor. You need money to make dem toys. Even SIvana got in on the act, pulling mass murders against Lexcorp just to lower their stock price so he could cash in on billions of dollars of options to buy his own island.
==Aelryinth
I like the thought, but Blinking creatures are still affected by force effects so it seems you wouldn't be able to try to get through. On top of that, the dome encloses a single 5ft square (i.e. the caster's square) and you cannot share spaces with enemies as far as I know. It is clearly a hemisphere though, so if you had burrow you could go underneath and attack up with the 50% miss chance for total concealment.20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how would a bull rush effect this scenario?
A ring of blinking gets around it nicely, and then you're in a dome stuck with a raging barbarian.
==Aelryinth
Blinking is stopped by a wall of force no more then teleport/dim door is. You're thinking Incorporeal creatures.
And it's a 5' Radius. There's room for two...hey, you get to share your space with a GRAPPLING raging barbarian!
==Aelryinth
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Its too bad this game wasn't designed with someone running it who's goal was to make sure everyone had fun. That person could make sure that both casters and martials both faced challenges that the other couldn't easily handle. Someone with the freedom to create situations on the fly for the enjoyment of the other players.
Too bad...
get's stuck in wall....
hue hue hue
anyway, we're not even getting into contingencies, usually of the revive me kind, or clones, or magic jars, magic jaring into some huge monster that incredibly hard to kill while casting spells at you.
1) The Juggernaut for starters.
My rejoinder is: Why can't Colossus learn to be immune to psionic attack sin his metal state (you're trying to read an I-beam!) or to make his metal form non-magnetic?
Because martials don't get nice things.2) Yesss, martials should be effective at all eight ranges of combat (Personal/grapple, fist range, melee weapon range, extended melee weapon range, throwing weapon range, projectile range, extreme projectile range, artillery range). Alas, they are not, because martials don't get nice things.
3) See above. The hulk, however, is nigh immune to psionics and magic, has impressive AoE attacks, can move VERY fast if need be (he can literally jump at multiple Machs)i.e. has movement options, doesn't need to breathe, heals himself, and there's literally nothing that can stop him face to face. He's not comedy relief - the whole fighting team is being carried along by him. He's actually the CENTERPOINT of the attack, if not the commander (and he's one of the top ten smart guys on the planet, so he can BE the commander!)
But jeez, look how long his career took before he actually got real martial training. Planet Hulk! Because, you know, martials can't get nice things.
(points at Spiderman). Took fifty years for shang-chi to actually give Peter some martial arts pointers. Because it might actually make him more effective in a fight. And the Scarlet Spider's web toys? when have we seen them again? Nah... web cluster bombs would make sense.
But hey, martials can't have nice things, even with a 225 IQ. They can't even hold down a decent job!And you know, Cap America in core marvel is an officer in the US Military and doesn't even carry a sidearm. Because that would give him a long range attack. You have to get into Ultimates before he's immune to telepathy and willing to wear some form of powered armor and carry a firearm, like any proper soldier would love to do.
4) Ah, caster-martial disparity in Science fiction! WHo knew? Because, you know, martials can't wander around with cloned or techno-ysalmari, and for some reason cortosis armor/weapons isn't a thing when fighting jedi.
It also helps that jedi get to wave around a self-contained fusion explosion that is somehow stronger then a blaster despite lasting longer, using less energy, and employing the same power pack. It's the most technologically implausible thing in the setting, combining the power of a blaster and force field, and doesn't even set the atmosphere on fire!
Because martials don't get nice things. You know, like something as simple as a personal force field that shocks/shuts down light saber fields, or nulls the Force in a general area. Nope, nope.
5) Soldiers use what is effective. You show me spellcasters in the real world, and I can guarantee you they get better toys. Just be aware that every soldier is equipped by the lowest common bidder with the minimum cost of gear that is sufficient for him to do his job.
Then go ask how many billions get spent on planes, missiles, ships and stuff, vs the common soldier.
6) Equality between martials is a given. Equality between martials and others? Nope. We set up limits on martials to give skill and dedication to training a chance to shine, as opposed to who can burn out their body faster, or big man against small man match-ups.
==Aelryinth
That's exactly my point. Thanks for helping me make it.
Martials just don't get nice things, not in any RL or Sci-Fi or Fantasy setting where there are other ways to win a fight beside martial combat.
D&D, GURPS, Hero System, Palladium, Traveller, Gamma World, Mythic Journeys, Twilight 2000, Runequest, etc. The list goes on and on. Throw in Sci-Fi and Fantasy books and movies, and the list is even longer.
Martials just lose. Period.
Except when they are part of a team. Especially if the opposition has challenges that are best solved by a martial. In those cases, it's good to have a martial on the team.
For another analogy, it's kind of like NFL Football. The quarterback gets all the glory for his air attack, but it's those "martials" on the front line who make it possible - without them, without his team, the quarterback won't get much done on his own.
That's the role of "martials" in the real world, in literature, in games, everywhere. With very few exceptions.
I don't think it's the job of the Pathfinder devs to make Martials equal to mages, but it should be their job to make sure there are adequate challenges to justify (and be grateful for) having a martial on the adventuring team.
I like the thought, but Blinking creatures are still affected by force effects so it seems you wouldn't be able to try to get through. On top of that, the dome encloses a single 5ft square (i.e. the caster's square) and you cannot share spaces with enemies as far as I know. It is clearly a hemisphere though, so if you had burrow you could go underneath and attack up with the 50% miss chance for total concealment.20 Hardness and 10 HP per level and your Barbarian Rogue isn't getting sneak attack on it and it cannot be critted. You mentioned 3 attacks, so there's a flat 60 from your attack routine off right there. Also note that if you do destroy it in one round by using all your attacks you actually did the caster a favor as they were trapped in there unless they wanted to standard action dismiss it or use another method to get out.So that will protect a caster for one round, tops. Potentially less.*casts Emergency Force Sphere as an immediate action*Too bad he's already dead.oh no if only the wizard didn't have the ability to summon like 5 of those and throw them back at you.
If only he had something better than a full attack bonus, 3 attacks at full BAB, Improved Initiative, Weapon Finesse, Dex to Damage, Evasion, and a huge pile of skills?!Fair enough.
Out of curiosity, how would a bull rush effect this scenario?
A ring of blinking gets around it nicely, and then you're in a dome stuck with a raging barbarian.
==Aelryinth
Blinking is stopped by a wall of force no more then teleport/dim door is. You're thinking Incorporeal creatures.
And it's a 5' Radius. There's room for two...hey, you get to share your space with a raging barbarian!
==Aelryinth
"Force effects and abjurations affect you normally. Their effects extend onto the Ethereal Plane from the Material Plane, but not vice versa. An ethereal creature can't attack material creatures, and spells you cast while ethereal affect only other ethereal things. Certain material creatures or objects have attacks or effects that work on the Ethereal Plane. Treat other ethereal creatures and objects as material."
That's the section I was looking at for the spell Blink.
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Its too bad this game wasn't designed with someone running it who's goal was to make sure everyone had fun. That person could make sure that both casters and martials both faced challenges that the other couldn't easily handle. Someone with the freedom to create situations on the fly for the enjoyment of the other players.
Too bad...
Exactly.
Its too bad this game wasn't designed with someone running it who's goal was to make sure everyone had fun. That person could make sure that both casters and martials both faced challenges that the other couldn't easily handle. Someone with the freedom to create situations on the fly for the enjoyment of the other players.
Too bad...
yeah like that guy who makes PvP never happen yet we constantly get into battles of who can kill whom the fastest. sure a martial maybe can 1HKO a caster. but when an army comes the caster can just bombard the army, cast illusions to disrupt the army (like false orders and the such), charm or dominate the enemy leaders. barbar just kill things.
As an aside, a place where martials DO get nice things is Warhammer 40k. The SPace Marines kinda get ALL the nice things, along with the Inquisitors. Because science can do almost anything magic can do there, and they DO it.
If you're just a grunt...hah, hold onto that lazgun and useless flak armor, baby.
==Aelryinth
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ITT "Everybody else sucks at it, so we're allowed to suck at it too!"
That's the most blatant cop-out I've heard in a while.
"Other people did it/didn't do it" is not an excuse for you to make your s$+# poorly designed.
Ehhh, since it's not 360 protection, I'm not inclined to give the Hemisphere immunity to blink. It would simply vent around the floor and pop you into place.
But, YMMV.
==Aelryinth
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That's the role of "martials" in the real world, in literature, in games, everywhere. With very few exceptions.
I think the issue is that eventually in many ways the martials start resembling demi-gods as opposed to Han Solo, yet we are still supposed to think of them as the second. It does not compute. As I said earlier in this topic, eventually "mundane" dangers just flat out will never kill such a person. Such people are NOT normal. They are not anywhere near the same power scale as people in the real world. So why are we insisting that they are? That dude just swam in lava. Who knows what else he can do!?
Except in Pathfinder we do know. He can hit things hard. Most attempts to give him things beyond that are met with "What, dual wield greatswords? Those are too heavy, it's impossible!" or "You want to jump straight up 30 feet as a level 20 guy? What are you mad?!" or "Nah man, tripping just doesn't work that way, it's too big, even though you technically have a higher strength score than the thing..."
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when you need to be 10 miles away right now, do you want the barbarian? or the wizard that prepared teleport? that's the real disparity, not who get's to kill whom.
I've been lucky in my experiences, we always build balanced groups that basically treat the martial as the primary character, everyone else plays support.
Sure fighters can't fly, but if a wizard teams up with a fighter, the fighter is a way better choice to go attack the dragon than the caster...
So I would argue in a well-made, balanced party the martials DO get nice things... an entire class of their own, their own gear, AND buffs from casters to make them even scarier!
Currently playing in a game with:
Hunter (secondary healer, primary function is melee)
Witch (elf slumber hex build, primary healer)
Paladin (Two handed melee build)
Fighter (Archer build)
Rogue/Fighter (non lethal melee build)
Ranger (two weapon/shield bash build)
The Witch is probably going to dominate a bit more at later levels, but at level 2, is the delicate little flower that casters tend to be...
I do believe the game is balanced, if played correctly. So although I do complain sometimes about martials not getting enough, most of my gameplay experience seems to indicate that everything is working just fine, as long as you work with your friends. :D
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In Pathfinder, unlimited wealth + crafting skills is the most powerful thing in the game. Doesn't really matter what class you are if you have time, but wizards and witches do it fastest.
A friend and I tried it once, just to have some fun.
We played a pair of mid level wizards who ran into an immense vein of mithril. Both had Valet familiars for Cooperative Crafting and Aid Another on crafting checks.
First order of business, craft a few magic tools that gives a +10 enhancement bonus to crafting checks. They're also masterwork tools, which give +2 Circumstance bonus. So, that gives us a +12 bonus.
Whip out a few scrolls of Crafter's Fortune and make some Intelligence boosting items.
Now our pair of wizards and their industrious familiars have somewhere around +20 to their crafting checks. This all takes about a week to crank out.
Now the fun starts.
First order of business is to make an At Will item of Greater Teleport. We can't actually cast Greater teleport? No problem. Add +5 to the DC and we can still take 10 and get it done.
From there we can go anywhere, buy whatever we need, and come back instantly.
Permanent Magic Circle? A scroll and a day.
Enchant it with the ability to cast Planar Binding once a day? No problem.
Now we make a couple items that grant +10 to Diplomacy and Intimidate. A little negotiation later and we have Wishes at our disposal.
But really, all we need is one.
Do you know how much an At Will ring of wishes costs? about 275,000 gold.
From there, the entire crafting system is cracked open and you can make whatever you want.
So we used Ring Gates.
And a cannon.
And very special bullets.
The bullets were essentially adamantine legos enchanted with Shrink Item. They all snapped together to form one big cannon shell.
The ring gate was mounted to the front of the cannon. When the cannon fired the Shrink was dismissed as it passed through the ring gate.
The already massive cannon shell then grew to 16 times it's normal size.
Then, upon impact, it teleported back to the firing bunker to be reassembled and put back on the ammo stack.
The damage on this thing was staggering. We had to call a friend who is a physics teacher to work it all out. The kinetic force was equivalent to about 1,500 kilotons. (about 100 Hiroshimas)
We lowballed it at [i]over 3 million d6 damage.[/b]
Save for half. The DC is dontbotherrolling
Moral of the story: Batman, Ironman, Mr. Fantastic are all cheaters. They can't be included in a caster/martial debate because even though they aren't actually casters, they're using money to pretend they are.