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If a spell or ability requires an attack or ranged attack roll, even if it is not necessarily a ray, does it take the normal ranged attack penalties for firing into melee/cover, and also recieve any bonuses to damage that would apply (only applicable to hit point damage, not spells like enervation etc)?
Do feats and abilities that apply to "Ranged Weapons" also apply to spells?
This question is primarily because of Point-Blank Shot. Originally I wanted to ask "does PBS apply to spells" but thought was too limiting a question.
You are especially accurate when making ranged attacks against close targets.Benefit: You get a +1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged weapons at ranges of up to 30 feet.
This question will also address the same thing for Precise Shot. It specifically says "shoot or throw ranged weapons" yet I see it applied to spells all the time.
You are adept at firing ranged attacks into melee.
Prerequisite: Point-Blank Shot.
Benefit: You can shoot or throw ranged weapons at an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty on your attack roll.
related:
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
Prerequisites: Proficiency with selected weapon, base attack bonus +1.
Benefit: You gain a +1 bonus on all attack rolls you make using the selected weapon.
Special: You can gain this feat multiple times. Its effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a new type of weapon.
Thi specifically defines ray as a weapon category, but not all spells are defined as rays. This implies that PBS will work for rays--but doesn't say anything about the rest of them.
Proof that it's a commonly asked question. ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR, FIVE, SIX and there are dozens more..
This was previously answered by SKR HERE but was never made official. This is as close to official as it's ever been (since pathfinder) and anyone that does not spend their time on the forum or have had the chance to sit and read questions and answers as they have come in may not know what is accepted to be the case. If GM Joe only gets his information from the CRB he is well within his right (regardless of rule 0, just going off of the printed material) to say that PBS does not apply to spells because the CRB never says it does. The CRB makes it clear what weapons are (defined other the Weapons header in the Equipment chapter) and spells are not included.
I know it's commonly accepted that this is true, but no one can point to any rule in the book that says as much. If it is supposed to be true, then let's actually make it official. If it's not supposed to be true, then it needs to be shut down.
this is probably a yes
and probably due to nefreet. :P
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Understandably, when different authors write different abilities, and especially when they try to keep the text conversational and fun, there will be variation in wording from book to book, and even within the same book. "Ranged Weapons" and "Ranged Attacks" probably both meant "when rolling a d20 to determine whether you hit at range". Not that "Weapons" applied solely to physical blunt trauma devices.
My vote is "Yes". It would be nice to codify this in the FAQ so that the question doesn't keep coming up.
Things like Inspire Courage, Bless, firing into melee, cover, concealment, the +1 to-hit granted by Haste, Point Blank Shot, Bullseye Shot, and all those sorts of fiddly bits should all modify ranged attack rolls in general, regardless of whether you're using a spell, a supernatural ability, an extraordinary ability, or a plain old weapon.
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Understandably, when different authors write different abilities, and especially when they try to keep the text conversational and fun, there will be variation in wording from book to book, and even within the same book. "Ranged Weapons" and "Ranged Attacks" probably both meant "when rolling a d20 to determine whether you hit at range". Not that "Weapons" applied solely to physical blunt trauma devices.
My vote is "Yes". It would be nice to codify this in the FAQ so that the question doesn't keep coming up.
Things like Inspire Courage, Bless, firing into melee, cover, concealment, the +1 to-hit granted by Haste, Point Blank Shot, Bullseye Shot, and all those sorts of fiddly bits should all modify ranged attack rolls in general, regardless of whether you're using a spell, a supernatural ability, an extraordinary ability, or a plain old weapon.
I agree. As you said, it would be nice to have this set to rest.
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Well, there's this from the Magic section:
Ray: Some effects are rays. You aim a ray as if using a ranged weapon, though typically you make a ranged touch attack rather than a normal ranged attack. As with a ranged weapon, you can fire into the dark or at an invisible creature and hope you hit something. You don't have to see the creature you're trying to hit, as you do with a targeted spell. Intervening creatures and obstacles, however, can block your line of sight or provide cover for the creature at which you're aiming.This section would indicate that, at least for Rays, their use counts as if using a ranged weapon. This would indicate that you do suffer the "firing into melee" penalty since you would take such when using a ranged weapon and any feats or other rules elements that reference "when using a ranged weapon" (ie. PBS) would confer their benefit when using a Ray spell. The same goes for elements that would confer an effect using "weapons" since a ranged weapon would fall under that.
So that's more evidence that rays function as weapons, but that still leaves all other spells in the dark.
so has anyone even thought it was no?
so has anyone even thought it was no?Well, seeing as how I linked 6 results from pages of the same question, I think that answer is an obvious yes--as I clearly stated in the first post.
Also anyone that has only gotten their rules from the book and not from random forum dev clarifications.
i read through most of them and didn't find any true dissenters. at best people said that it's not specifically called out.
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i read through most of them and didn't find any true dissenters. at best people said that it's not specifically called out.so has anyone even thought it was no?Well, seeing as how I linked 6 results from pages of the same question, I think that answer is an obvious yes--as I clearly stated in the first post.
Also anyone that has only gotten their rules from the book and not from random forum dev clarifications.
Is that not reason enough to get something official about it?
from Logan on Mystic Bolts where he seems to contradict himself. He says "Most other feats and abilities that work with weapons or give bonuses to weapon attacks (including Rapid Shot) can't affect mystic bolts." then says "Basically, only if something would apply to a ray does it apply to a mystic bolt (including Improved Critical, etc.)."
As Kazaan quoted, Rays are used "As with a ranged weapon", so the first part doesn't mesh with the second part. AT the very least, we're going to have to get mystic bolts' interaction with feats figured out before the vigilante comes on line.
EDIT: here is a thread I started on this when I got confused by Logan. It has the entire Logan quote on weapons.
thread
I have seen people say that Bardic Performance and other such effects do not apply to Acid Splash because it is an orb, not a ray. Of course those same people still apply the firing into melee, and other ranged attack, penalties.
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I have seen people say that Bardic Performance and other such effects do not apply to Acid Splash because it is an orb, not a ray. Of course those same people still apply the firing into melee, and other ranged attack, penalties.
Consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds.
We need to get this hobgoblin statted out for combat...
Owner - D20 Hobbies
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I have seen people say that Bardic Performance and other such effects do not apply to Acid Splash because it is an orb, not a ray. Of course those same people still apply the firing into melee, and other ranged attack, penalties.
My view. Did you make a ranged attack roll? Then add Bardic Performance, shooting into melee, cover, point blank shot, arcane strike, and anything else that applies.
SKR agreed. That was good enough for me to know I have been doing it correctly for a long time.
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I have seen people say that Bardic Performance and other such effects do not apply to Acid Splash because it is an orb, not a ray. Of course those same people still apply the firing into melee, and other ranged attack, penalties.My view. Did you make a ranged attack roll? Then add Bardic Performance, shooting into melee, cover, point blank shot, arcane strike, and anything else that applies.
SKR agreed. That was good enough for me to know I have been doing it correctly for a long time.
Ding!
As Kazaan quoted, Rays are used "As with a ranged weapon", so the first part doesn't mesh with the second part. AT the very least, we're going to have to get mystic bolts' interaction with feats figured out before the vigilante comes on line.Well, to be fair, the rules say that Rays are aimed as ranged weapons. So things like the "firing into melee penalty" penalty apply because that's a matter of "aiming" (making your attack roll) but it would still be reasonable to say that other abilities not associated with aiming don't apply. For instance, Rapid Shot has nothing to do with "aiming" your ranged weapon; it's all about getting an extra shot off. But you can't just "get an extra shot off" with Scorching Ray; you have a limited number of rays you can fire based on your caster level. You also don't fire the rays with a full-attack action so Rapid Shot is out on two levels. Hypothetically, distance penalties would apply to Rays, but since the magical effect truncates at the end of what would be the first range increment of the effect anyway, the point is moot. But when it comes to pointing and shooting, what attack bonuses and penalties you get (ie. point blank shot), and what AC bonuses and penalties the target gets (ie. lying prone), cover, concealment, and the like, you treat it no different than firing a bow and arrow.
The only reason I can see for 'normal' rays not working with Rapid Shot is there inability to be used in a full attack. Not an issue with mystic bolts.
"When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon"
As to the rest, I'd say Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, sneak attack and inspire courage, all things allowed from FAQS, go beyond aiming. If there is a distinction of when a ray is or isn't counted as a weapon, I don't see it. The "ranged weapon" from rapid shot looks the same as the "ranged weapons" from point blank shot, "ranged weapons" from precise shot, the "selected weapon" of Weapon Specialization or the "selected weapon" of weapon focus.
The only reason I can see for 'normal' rays not working with Rapid Shot is there inability to be used in a full attack. Not an issue with mystic bolts.
"When making a full-attack action with a ranged weapon"
As to the rest, I'd say Weapon Specialization, Improved Critical, sneak attack and inspire courage, all things allowed from FAQS, go beyond aiming. If there is a distinction of when a ray is or isn't counted as a weapon, I don't see it. The "ranged weapon" from rapid shot looks the same as the "ranged weapons" from point blank shot, "ranged weapons" from precise shot, the "selected weapon" of Weapon Specialization or the "selected weapon" of weapon focus.
Don't look at it from too narrow a perspective. Sawtooth Sabers say they count as light weapons and, if you ignore the part that specifies, "for determining TWF penalties", you might also make the argument that they count as light weapons for other things like Piranha Strike. Considerations of aiming are explicitly called out and, for those purposes, attack rolls, damage rolls, and AC are most certainly included. That covers Weapon Focus/Spec, Inspire Courage, Shooing into Melee, Cover, and Concealment. Improved Critical would also be included because it affects how you aim your shot; you're not changing your Bow or Arrow to make it, somehow, better at getting a critical hit so you must, therefore, be changing how you aim it.
And Logan Bonner already brought up that Mystic Bolts fall under the same constraints that apply to Rays and, for this reason, you can't use Mystic Bolts with Rapid Shot. That means that you can't use Rapid Shot with Rays, not just because you don't fire rays as a full-attack but because, as I brought up, it's a matter of "aiming" rather than for any and all uses that Rays are treated as ranged weapons.
As for the first part, I'll have to disagree on 'aim' being a factor for it's weapon status when you include the FAQ's. Aim has as much to do with rapid shot as it does Inspire Courage, weapon specialization or sneak attack.
On Logan's statements, I think my point AND that of this thread is there is NO list of feats that work with ray or can't be used with them past the few listed in the FAQ's. "fall under the same constraints that apply to Rays" and "Most other feats and abilities that work with weapons or give bonuses to weapon attacks (including Rapid Shot) can't affect mystic bolts" don't fit together. The FAQ's say "Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons?" and answers yes. Not yes, but only for aiming. If Inspire Courage works, why not arcane strike? "rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source".
If there is a list of weapon feats that can't be used with rays, they have been kept secret and not let out. Even is the original intent of rays was for 'aiming', the currents FAQ's have gone beyond that and the game now treats them as weapons [full stop]. This is what confused me with Logan's statements. The only weapon feats I see not working are those that call out a specific weapon(ie, need a scimitar) or a physical one (weapon versatility and grip change). If there is a list the dev team has, they should let us see it.
A ranged-touch-attack is just too broad and powerful to let apply to an entire weapon specific feat, such as weapon focus. It's like saying you want to take weapon focus in arrow instead of longbow or shortbow. But a more generic feat, like Precise Shot, should apply but doesn't under the most strict interpretation of RAW. That's why we need the FAQ to let the ranged touch attacks apply under strict RAW.
I do not get why I can train to get Weapon Focus Ray to better at using ray of frost but it would not go to being used in Acid splash.
The spell Acid splash under the Effect says "One missile of acid"The meaning for missile in this case(best i could find is)
"any object or weapon that is thrown at a target or shot from an engine, gun, etc"so I can shoot a light crossbow and get Weapon Focus light crossbow.
I can throw a bottle of acid and get Weapon focus Thrown object.
but yet i can shoot acid with Acid splash and not get a Weapon focus.
Because Acid Splash is a spell that causes damage, but it is not a weapon. Rays get specifically called out as weapons, but spells with missiles don't.
Light Crossbows obviously work because they are weapons.
I searched the PRD for the phrase "thrown object" and it never appears once. As far as I know, you can't take Weapon Focus (Thrown Object). Maybe you meant something else?
The OP does make a grave mistake in his assumption.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.
The bolded text mentions that rays can be chosen as a weapon as far as the feat is concerned. This implies that rays otherwise are not weapons.
There is also this FAQ here, which makes an important mention:
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
The bolded part is key; it further confirms that rays, although they are considered weapons for certain purposes, they are not actually weapons. So I could not choose them for my Fighter Weapon Group choice for my Weapon Training, for example.
That being said, the answer is cut and dry; if the effect is treated as a weapon for certain purposes (such as rays or weapon-like spells), and it has a range increment listed, then I'm sure it counts.
Well, by that logic, Unarmed Strikes aren't weapons either.The OP does make a grave mistake in his assumption.
Choose one type of weapon. You can also choose unarmed strike or grapple (or ray, if you are a spellcaster) as your weapon for the purposes of this feat.The bolded text mentions that rays can be chosen as a weapon as far as the feat is concerned. This implies that rays otherwise are not weapons.
There is also this FAQ here, which makes an important mention:
For example, a bard's inspire courage says it affects "weapon damage rolls," which is worded that way so don't try to add the bonus to a spell like fireball. However, rays are treated as weapons, whether they're from spells, a monster ability, a class ability, or some other source, so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
The same rule applies to weapon-like spells such as flame blade, mage's sword, and spiritual weapon--effects that affect weapons work on these spells.
The bolded part is key; it further confirms that rays, although they are considered weapons for certain purposes, they are not actually weapons. So I could not choose them for my Fighter Weapon Group choice for my Weapon Training, for example.
That being said, the answer is cut and dry; if the effect is treated as a weapon for certain purposes (such as rays or weapon-like spells), and it has a range increment listed, then I'm sure it counts.
An unarmed strike is always considered a light weapon.
It's also defined in the Weapon Table, as a weapon. It's also defined in the Fighter Weapon Groups, under multiple weapon groups.
Yup. Unarmed Strikes are totally not weapons.
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That being said, the answer is cut and dry; if the effect is treated as a weapon for certain purposes (such as rays or weapon-like spells), and it has a range increment listed, then I'm sure it counts.
That's only for rays. What about other ranged spells that are rays? The question isn't specifically rays, but for everything (including those that aren't rays).
Also, this exact thing came up at a table I was playing at this weekend and I wasn't even the one that initiated the conversation.
The bolded part is key; it further confirms that rays, although they are considered weapons for certain purposes, they are not actually weapons. So I could not choose them for my Fighter Weapon Group choice for my Weapon Training, for example.
Ermm.. if the bolded part were the key part then the design team would have come up with a different answer.
so the inspire courage bonus applies to ray attack rolls and ray damage rolls.
There is no functional difference between treated like a weapon and it is a weapon.
If you're rolling a d20 to hit its a weapon.
That being said, the answer is cut and dry; if the effect is treated as a weapon for certain purposes (such as rays or weapon-like spells), and it has a range increment listed, then I'm sure it counts.That's only for rays. What about other ranged spells that are rays? The question isn't specifically rays, but for everything (including those that aren't rays).
Also, this exact thing came up at a table I was playing at this weekend and I wasn't even the one that initiated the conversation.
Read the entire FAQ. It doesn't matter if the ray is a spell or not. It counts as a weapon for the purposes of effects that enhance weapons.
@ BigNorseWolf: Then by your logic, I can Vital Strike a Shocking Grasp for 10D6 damage, since you think anything that uses an attack roll is a weapon. So I suppose Grapple, Bull Rush, Overrun, etc. are all weapons too?
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Read the entire FAQ. It doesn't matter if the ray is a spell or not. It counts as a weapon for the purposes of effects that enhance weapons.That being said, the answer is cut and dry; if the effect is treated as a weapon for certain purposes (such as rays or weapon-like spells), and it has a range increment listed, then I'm sure it counts.That's only for rays. What about other ranged spells that are rays? The question isn't specifically rays, but for everything (including those that aren't rays).
Also, this exact thing came up at a table I was playing at this weekend and I wasn't even the one that initiated the conversation.
I'm not sure what you're reading in that FAQ that says what you're saying it says. Specifically, which part of that FAQ applies to a spell like Acid Splash?
There are multiple sources that state and show that an Unarmed Strike is, in fact, a weapon. The weapon table lists an Unarmed Strike as a weapon, and there is rules text, stating that Unarmed Strikes are always considered Light Weapons. It's also listed under multiple weapon categories for Fighter Weapon Groups.
There are ZERO sources that state or show that a Ray is an actual weapon, and a few sources merely state that it counts or is treated as a weapon in regards to certain things (Bardic Performance, Weapon Focus/Specialization/Improved Critical, etc).
If I can select Rays for my Fighter Weapon Training (i.e., Rays are defined in a Weapon Group), then I'll concede the argument that a ray is, in fact a weapon. Sadly, that can't ever happen, and until that happens, Rays aren't defined as weapons, both in a table, or in the Fighter Weapon Groups, meaning they aren't actually weapons.
If you want other examples, we can look at the Bastard Sword, Spells V.S. Spell-Like Abilities, or my currently unsolved favorite, Hands V.S. "Hands".
I'm not sure what you're reading in that FAQ that says what you're saying it says. Specifically, which part of that FAQ applies to a spell like Acid Splash?Read the entire FAQ. It doesn't matter if the ray is a spell or not. It counts as a weapon for the purposes of effects that enhance weapons.That being said, the answer is cut and dry; if the effect is treated as a weapon for certain purposes (such as rays or weapon-like spells), and it has a range increment listed, then I'm sure it counts.That's only for rays. What about other ranged spells that are rays? The question isn't specifically rays, but for everything (including those that aren't rays).
Also, this exact thing came up at a table I was playing at this weekend and I wasn't even the one that initiated the conversation.
My mistake, I think I misread your statement. Feel free to disregard it, as I thought you said "What about rays that aren't from spells" or something.
At any rate, it's still cut and dry. If you can prove that the effect generated either is a weapon (via weapon-like spell), or counts or is treated as a weapon for the specific purposes needed (via rays), then the cited FAQ applies. If not, then I don't see why it should apply.
If I can select Rays for my Fighter Weapon Training (i.e., Rays are defined in a Weapon Group), then I'll concede the argument that a ray is, in fact a weapon. Sadly, that can't ever happen, and until that happens, Rays aren't defined as weapons, both in a table, or in the Fighter Weapon Groups, meaning they aren't actually weapons.
Not all weapons are in weapon groups. Barbazu Beard and sea knives don't appear in any group but are clearly weapons. So I don't see groups having anything to do with something being a weapon.
eh, why not.
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Rather than bicker about wording that many people already feel is ambiguous, let's help the Design Team figure out what ramifications (if any) might occur if all instances of "ranged weapons" were instead replaced with "ranged attack rolls".
FEATS:
- Point Blank Shot ("+1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged
weaponsat ranges of up to 30 feet") - Precise Shot ("shoot or throw ranged
weaponsat an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty") - Deadly Aim (remains unchanged, as the word "weapon" is never used)
- Bullseye Shot (remains unchanged, as the word "weapon" is never used)
CLASS FEATURES:
- Inspire Courage ("+1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls")
SPELLS:
- Bless (remains unchanged, as the word "weapon" is never used)
OTHER:
- Cover (remains unchanged, as the word "weapon" is never used)
If I can select Rays for my Fighter Weapon Training (i.e., Rays are defined in a Weapon Group), then I'll concede the argument that a ray is, in fact a weapon. Sadly, that can't ever happen, and until that happens, Rays aren't defined as weapons, both in a table, or in the Fighter Weapon Groups, meaning they aren't actually weapons.Not all weapons are in weapon groups. Barbazu Beard and sea knives don't appear in any group but are clearly weapons. So I don't see groups having anything to do with something being a weapon.
Sea Knives and Barbazu Beards aren't Core items; as such, they won't be properly listed in a weapon group, because when it comes to Core materials (i.e. hardcover publications), only Core weapons are listed.
Rays are a subject from the Core, as is the Fighter Weapon Groups, which are updated whenever new hardcovers containing weapons are released; see Ultimate Combat, APG, and Ultimate Equipment. There are multiple publications that never cite Rays as being a part of a weapon group, and Rays have been around since the CRB was released. There are also no FAQ or Errata that state Rays are weapons. In fact, there is at least one FAQ that suggests quite the contrary, as well as current book content that hasn't been Errata'd yet.
@ Nefreet: The ramifications are that I could use Deadly Aim/Bullseye Shot on spells like Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, etc. And that's not even making any adjustments.
Quite frankly, I highly doubt it's intended for Scorching Ray to get +6 static damage (+2 from each ray) at the level you can cast it, and that only goes up as you level.
Hell, I could do the same thing with a spell like Enervation, and I'd get bonuses on the level drain ability as well. And that's obviously not intended either.
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If I can select Rays for my Fighter Weapon Training (i.e., Rays are defined in a Weapon Group), then I'll concede the argument that a ray is, in fact a weapon. Sadly, that can't ever happen, and until that happens, Rays aren't defined as weapons, both in a table, or in the Fighter Weapon Groups, meaning they aren't actually weapons.Not all weapons are in weapon groups. Barbazu Beard and sea knives don't appear in any group but are clearly weapons. So I don't see groups having anything to do with something being a weapon.Sea Knives and Barbazu Beards aren't Core items; as such, they won't be properly listed in a weapon group, because when it comes to Core materials (i.e. hardcover publications), only Core weapons are listed.
Rays are a subject from the Core, as is the Fighter Weapon Groups, which are updated whenever new hardcovers containing weapons are released; see Ultimate Combat, APG, and Ultimate Equipment. There are multiple publications that never cite Rays as being a part of a weapon group, and Rays have been around since the CRB was released. There are also no FAQ or Errata that state Rays are weapons. In fact, there is at least one FAQ that suggests quite the contrary, as well as current book content that hasn't been Errata'd yet.
@ Nefreet: The ramifications are that I could use Deadly Aim/Bullseye Shot on spells like Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, etc. And that's not even making any adjustments.
Quite frankly, I highly doubt it's intended for Scorching Ray to get +6 static damage (+2 from each ray) at the level you can cast it, and that only goes up as you level.
Hell, I could do the same thing with a spell like Enervation, and I'd get bonuses on the level drain ability as well. And that's obviously not intended either.
deadly aim can't be used with touch attacks. so that's already not an issue.
Darksol the Painbringer: I'll just say I'll have to disagree that what book/supplement an item comes out in has a bearing on how valid it is in a rule.
As to "There are also no FAQ or Errata that state Rays are weapons.": Well there IS this FAQ - "Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons? Yes." If we treat effect the same way as "Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race." then the result of the 1/2 elf/orc FAQ should carry over. "half-elf rays can select elf and human weapon rules elements"
That's how I see it at least. I'd rather have a direct answer on how rays count as weapons from the dev's but until that happens, I see rays as weapons for most things.
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- Point Blank Shot ("+1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged
weaponsat ranges of up to 30 feet")- Precise Shot ("shoot or throw ranged
weaponsat an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty")
- Inspire Courage ("+1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls")
I don't see an issue with PBS and PS after the change.
IC is worded that way to prevent adding to fireballs.
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- Point Blank Shot ("+1 bonus on attack and damage rolls with ranged
weaponsat ranges of up to 30 feet")- Precise Shot ("shoot or throw ranged
weaponsat an opponent engaged in melee without taking the standard –4 penalty")
- Inspire Courage ("+1 competence bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls")
I don't see an issue with PBS and PS after the change.
IC is worded that way to prevent adding to fireballs.
Totally understood.
But how can it be reworded to be clear that it adds to things like Scorching Ray or Acid Splash and not Fireball?
You and I know how it works, but writing it on a page is what I'm finding difficult, and it's likely why the Design Team didn't tackle this long ago.
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deadly aim can't be used with touch attacks. so that's already not an issue.@ Nefreet: The ramifications are that I could use Deadly Aim/Bullseye Shot on spells like Acid Arrow, Scorching Ray, etc. And that's not even making any adjustments.
Quite frankly, I highly doubt it's intended for Scorching Ray to get +6 static damage (+2 from each ray) at the level you can cast it, and that only goes up as you level.
Hell, I could do the same thing with a spell like Enervation, and I'd get bonuses on the level drain ability as well. And that's obviously not intended either.
In addition, Bullseye Shot does work with spells like Scorching Ray and Enervation.
Darksol the Painbringer: I'll just say I'll have to disagree that what book/supplement an item comes out in has a bearing on how valid it is in a rule.
As to "There are also no FAQ or Errata that state Rays are weapons.": Well there IS this FAQ - "Ray: Do rays count as weapons for the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons? Yes." If we treat effect the same way as "Elf Blood: Half-elves count as both elves and humans for any effect related to race." then the result of the 1/2 elf/orc FAQ should carry over. "
half-elfrays can selectelf and humanweapon rules elements"That's how I see it at least. I'd rather have a direct answer on how rays count as weapons from the dev's but until that happens, I see rays as weapons for most things.
Agree to disagree, but then I should be able to bring any 3rd party product to your table, and not have any quarrels with your approval of it being an authentic subject. Even some weird random crap that I just made up to ruin the gaming table. (Which I'm not saying I would, but it is merely an example, after all...)
I can ignore specific rules text to get my point across too. Look:
Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifierinstead of your Intelligence modifieron all Knowledge checks.
Now I can use both Intelligence and Charisma on Knowledge checks. Look ma, no hands! Isn't that great?
That's exactly what you did:
Well there IS this FAQ - "Ray: Do rays count as weaponsfor the purpose of spells and effects that affect weapons? Yes."
Ignoring or changing words alters the meaning of the FAQ, just like how ignoring some text of the ability above changes it entirely.
Since, by your interpretation, a Ray is now a weapon, I'm sure it has Hardness, Hit Points, can be enhanced up to +10 with specific modifiers, can be crafted for constant use, it's subject to rust and similar effects, and I can ready actions to Sunder it when it's fired at me, destroying it, and the effect no longer taking place. There's a bunch of other crap I could throw at too, but that's just off the top of my head.
All of that's obviously not intended when it comes to Rays. So it's much easier to assume they only function as weapons for certain subjects (i.e. weapon attack and damage roll bonuses), and not all subjects.
Additionally, there had to be a FAQ released for players to be able to take archetypes and such if they counted as multiple (sub)types, because it was unclear if, outside of their listed examples, those counted as such. Kind of exactly what's going on now, isn't it?
Darksol the Painbringer: I'm fine with agreeing to disagree, though I'm not sure why you'd bring in 3rd party items. I was referring to your statement that non-core books are somehow not as relevant. I was still talking about paizo products.
On the other, I ignored nothing. I used effect the same way they've use it, it the 1/2 elf/orc FAQ and the Feral Combat FAQ's. And note I NEVER said it was an actual physical weapon just that they could use weapon rules elements. An the playtest put it, it'd be "impermanent" so some things obviously don't apply. You treat a flame-blade as a scimitar but it's not being able to be sundered doesn't stop it from acting like one.
Hardness, hp, crafting, rust, sunder are all things that affect a physical object which a ray clearly isn't. But then I can point to an item on the weapon list that doesn't have Hardness, hp, crafting, rust, or able to be sundered. An unarmed attack. Does that invalidate it's being a weapon? Having exceptions doesn't invalidate something from a classification.
A platypus is a mammal even though it lays eggs and is poisonous. A ray and a fist or claw can be a weapon even though you can't sunder, rust or enchant them.
A platypus is a mammal even though it lays eggs and is;-)poisonousvenomous.
poi·son·ous
/ˈpoiz(ə)nəs/adjective
•(of an animal) producing poison as a means of attacking enemies or prey; venomous.
adjective: poisonous: "a poisonous snake"
synonyms: venomous, deadly: "a poisonous snake"
Both are correct and synonymous in the sentence. ;-)
creatures make venom, however they can still be poisonous... fun fact