I am going to be running a game in my group of friends pretty soon, and everyone is pretty well decided on their class save for one person. They're interested in playing someone who is devoted to a singular deity and carries out their will with strength and conviction in the thick of melee.
Paladin is obvious.
Inquisitor is an option.
A reach/control cleric is a possibility, though they've played one before and while they enjoyed themselves, want to play something a bit more hard hitting and powerful.
A bloodrager has been considered, going with the celestial bloodline with absolute faith in their forebears' so called 'blessing'.
And then there is warpriest.
They like warpriest, the feel and style of it, and depending on their god, is much more flexible than a paladin. But it is their and my understanding that warpriests are generally worse off than some of the other options, and now I'm looking into ways to amp the class up some.
My immediate thoughts are to allow them to treat their BAB as equal to their warpriest level when using sacred weapon.
In addition, I've disliked the warpriest's spell progression since their inception. It just feels weak. Taking some inspiration from the hunter class, I thought it could be interesting to change their spellcasting to... "A warpriest casts divine spells drawn from the cleric, antipaladin and paladin spell lists. If a spell appears on both the cleric and the antipaladin/paladin spell lists, the warpriest uses the lower of the two spell levels listed for the spell."
This would grant them some new spells, and I feel pack some more power faster, though obviously with something as significant as changing up an entire spell list, it's hard to tell if this is too over the top.
So what do you think? Too over the top, not enough, or just right? I'd love to hear from you.
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The base warpriest is kind of bland on paper but surprisingly powerful in play. I'd recommend you try an unaltered one first.
I've just heard a lot of people on these forums complain "why play a warpriest when you can play X,Y, and Z?". I've seen it played a few times and it's never seemed particularly great, which is why I proposed some of these changes.
I've just heard a lot of people on these forums complain "why play a warpriest when you can play X,Y, and Z?". I've seen it played a few times and it's never seemed particularly great, which is why I proposed some of these changes.
The main thing people compare it to is the Inquisitor. The Inquisitor is more useful outside of battle, while the SF ends up edging out the Inquisitor in Combat by a little.
Throw both into a Party and the DM is considering upping the CRs of encounters both in and out of Combat.
Also, most of the Warpriest-based GRAR as died down in the last few months now that people have actually had a change to play it; before, when it treated it's level as its BAB, it was considered by a lot of players outside of the Paizo boards to be borderline broken - Feat-per-level combat competency, full BAB, an ability which plays out like a more-adjustable Divine Bond for a Weapon, 2 good & relevant Saves, AND 6th level spells was absolutely heinous, and in serious danger of completely obsoleting the Paladin.
Warpriests were running amok in the playtests, for pretty much exactly the reasons I just stated.
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The Warpriest is sort of a Fighter+
While you can mess around with the theme through your choice of spells and if you focus on the effects of your Blessings, for the most part you're charging into the frontlines, Fervor-casting buff spells every round and activating Sacred Weapon to pump up your weapon of choice.
It gets as many Feats as the Fighter does in total, if you're a Human, Scion of Humanity Aasimar, Throwback Gillman, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc.
It's basically the "Shounen Fighting Anime/Manga Class" - it just keeps growing and growing in power every turn that it's still drawing breath.
So, yeah - in many ways, it's bland, but it's also very effective.
The Sacred Fist outpaces the base Warpriest but for a choice few builds - Archery arguably keeps up damage with the SF, and a Natural Weapon-based Warpriest can keep up or even out-damage a SF (a 2-level Barbarian dip enables hilarious nonsense, especially as a Toothy Half-Orc); once the Errata for Slashing Grace comes out and includes Light slashing weapons, a Dual Kukri Warpriest will also probably start steamrolling things, since a single-level dip into Swashbuckler will get you Slashing Grace at lv1, and then at lv2 you enter Warpriest, retrain your Weapon Focus from lv1 to Two-Weapon Fighting, and commence the harvesting...
If you're looking for more flavor, there are several archetypes which trade degrees of effectiveness for neat abilities.
Thank you for your response chb, it's really great to gain some more insight into the classes' strengths and weaknesses. I still have to mull over the warpriest in my head and find out how my player would feel about playing without any changes.
horfrost's got the right idea; the key to the Warpriest is his crazy good action economy. Casting buffs as a swift action solves basically the only problem the combat cleric has to deal with; granted, he gives up 9th level spells for it, but still.
The Warpriest is also uniquely effective with a Vital Strike build, since the VS feats line up with his bonus feats and come online faster than his iteratives would. The Weapon of the Chosen feat chain helps support this quite well.
Not saying this is any better than the previously given options, but I would like to give a shoutout to the Order of the Star Daring Champion Cavalier. The standard dexterity build is of course good, but he can also go strength based with an estoc. The OotS DC is a better spell-less Paladin than any of the Paladin archetypes that swap out spells IMO.
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As a simple, small, buff I make Sacred Weapon last minutes per level, not rounds. I also make both it and Sacred Armor Free Actions to activate.
This helps Warpriest action economy quite a bit (ie: allows Sacred Weapon and Armor to get used) and delivers a small buff without changing things too much.
I add a few other abilities as well, but that's more based on my buffing of Fighters than anything else.
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I feel that most of the WP issues could be patched with feats. For instance a feat that made Sacred Weapon/Armor a free action when using Fervor or Blessings would really help the action economy issue.
Sacred Weapon is really weird because it's actually a powerful ability. It's just not as good as the other things you can do with your swift so you rarely get to use it.
If you really want to make a warpriest better create a extra fervor feat that gives 2 or 3 extra fervor points. If you want to make it great let it be taken more than once.
I followed and participated heavily in the warpriest playtests because I loved the idea of the class - it tied directly into one of the earliest characters I played. Unfortunately I was pretty unhappy with the end result. I've run more than a few test builds and seen two warpriests in play, one from levels 1-5 and one from levels 10-18. If you've been following the warpriest discussion threads you've probably read at least one of my 'grag' posts. All of that said, I actually agree with JB in that the Warpriest doesn't need full BAB progression. Provided you make good use of your class features, your accuracy can be expected to be on par with other melee classes.
I'd argue the main problem for the Warpriest was that the revised playtest was balanced around the idea that the Warpriest had a unique and powerful class feature in "pesudo-BAB", so the various shortcomings of the class were considered fair. Taking away pseudo-bab cut out the legs of the class and now he's struggling to keep up with the inquisitor and the martial cleric.
Keeping that in mind, here are some of the suggestions I've seen on how to improve the Warpriest:
1. The spell list is arguably the single most important thing for the class, and a big part of the reason why the cleric and to a lesser degree the inquisitor stomps all over it. The warpriest don't get access to highly appropriate spells like Bed of Iron or Litany of X, but do gain access to odd spells like Read Weather or Bestow Insight.
Giving it access to the Paladin/Antipaladin list is a solution, but those lists have a lot of uniquely good/evil-aligned options, which make neutral warpriests sad. The Inquisitor list is an option, but that has a lot of sneaky and "CONFESS HEATHEN!!"-spells that don't mesh well with the Warpriest's rather more straightforward approach to combat. The single best solution would be to sit down and write a custom spell list for the warpriest, drawing appropriate spells from the ranger, paladin, antipaladin, cleric, magus, druid, wizard and inquisitor lists. Ideally with spell level discounts where appropriate. For example I think the Warpriest and the Cleric should be able to cast Divine Power at the same level. The obvious downside for the last suggestion is that this is a big undertaking for homebrewers. A better and/or more unique spell list was suggested ad nauseam in the Warpriest playtests, but unfortunately it was never followed up on. One of the design goals of the ACG was supposedly to not add any more unique spell lists to the game, which ran counter to this suggestion.
2. Give the warpriest the option to take Domains and Inquisitions as well as Blessings. The playtests were pretty much unanimously unhappy with blessings. Many of them are still underwhelming, they are extremely unlikely to get as much post-support as domains have, and take up a ton of page space. Adding insult to injury, domains and domain spell lists are a big part of what makes clerics of different deities feel distinct. Blessings are nowhere near as flavorful.
3. Give them full Channel progression. Channel Energy is already struggling to keep up, slow progression Channel Energy is extremely niche.
4. Sacred Weapon and Sacred Armor should both have a duration of 1 minute/level and be used from the same pool. The warpriest already has a ton of buff durations to juggle and resources to keep track of (Fervor, spell slots, blessings, SA, SW), this streamlines that and makes sacred weapon more attractive.
5. Give them 4 skill points per level. This one is controversial since both the hybrid classes start off with 2/level, but the warpriest could really use the help. The inquisitor obviously blows him out of the water in the skill department. The cleric does not, but the cleric has a lot more spell slots available and less incentive to fill them all at once, so he can prepare utility spells on the fly when the situation calls for it.
6. Tweak the swift action glut. I quite like Melkiador's suggestion to add an option that lets you use Sacred Weapon/Armor as a free action when you fervor a spell.
If you do choose to add some of these suggestions, think hard on whether or not they should also come into play for the Sacred Fist. The Sacred Fist is a very good option, and probably doesn't need the buffs as much as the base Warpriest does.
I've played a few warpriests since the book came out. Hasn't seemed weak to me. Too many pools to track but it gets spells and self healing while having almost as many bonus feats as a fighter, especially with the human favored class bonus. I made a reach warpriest that was dealing a ton of damage not too long ago.
The Warpriest is fine. Swift Action casting is ridiculously strong.
Here's the current round up of divine casters:
1. Cleric - No in-built battle capabilities, but lots of spells. Reliant on Wisdom and somewhat on Charisma. Best used with high STR. Meh at skills.
2. Oracle - More in-built battle capabilities, but restricted spellcasting. Worse saves than a Cleric (base). Less versatile overall. Good skill tools.
3. Druid - In-built battle capabilities and lots of spells and good saves - but worse spell list and restricted casting while in "battle mode". Very few innate accuracy boosts.
4. Inquisitor - Lots of skills, a lot of in-built battle capabilities, good saves... but restricted casting and no extra feats to be able to excel at specialized combat styles like TWF, archery, tanking or maneuvers.
5. Paladin - Lord and master of smashing things with divine power. Least spells but good spell list. No feats to develop specialized combat styles, but defenses are so high that you can ignore the staples of other builds. Terrible at skills.
6. Hunter - Restricted spells, but good with skills and has a good toolbox spell-list. Full animal companion for flanking and battlefield control, versatile buffs to adapt.
7. Ranger - Great for developing specialized combat styles, lots of offensive abilities, a bit on the way of defense, delayed spellcasting but good utility. Lots of skills.
Finally:
8. Warpriest - Excellent at developing specialized combat styles (on par with Ranger), good spell list and versatile preparation, good defense and offense.
The proliferation of classes makes it so that the Warpriest is probably not favored because everyone wants a more specialized build and Warpriests are the kings of middle of the road. Not Paladins in frontlining, not Rangers in damaging, not Hunters in utility, not Druids in versatility, not Inquisitors in terms of skills, not Oracles or Clerics in raw power.
But the Warpriest can do their own impression of all them simultaneously.
Paladins cannot quickly build a switch-hitting build or archery build like they can - Warpriests can even make specialized reach or combat maneuver builds with great efficiency.
Inquisitors are restricted by spontaneous casting and a low number of feats in their builds. If an Inquisitor builds to shoot a bow and arrow... that's basically all it can do. If the Inquisitor gets disabling spells -- it can forget about buffing. The Warpriest can customize his spell list and expand his combat utility through a larger amount of feats.
Rangers don't have the utility of Warpriests and cannot frontline as well as them (because what the Ranger can do, the Warpriest can do with heavy armor.)
And so on...
Try the class out.
2. Oracle - Less versatile overall.3. Druid - restricted casting while in "battle mode".
2. I take it you haven't looked into the Spirit Guide archetype. Instant versatility.
3. Uh... what? Assuming by 'battle mode' you mean Wildshape, There's feat(s) for that. Natural Spell for starters followed by Wild Speech takes care of pretty much every casting restriction imposed by Wildshape, save for access to metamagic rods. But then, you're a spell casting dinosaur, so who cares?
Don't really disagree with your other stuff.
Of course, I meant "baseline". Natural Spell is a resource you need to allocate to remove that issue. A Spirit Guide Oracle is giving out revelations (raw power) for versatility.
A Warpriest, for example, can go Cult Leader to become very good at skills, and, with a Finesse playstyle, they can make a scary powerful TWF battler with much better stealth tools than a Ranger or Inquisitor.
This forces them to give up some of their ability for build specialization due to feat loss and removes part of their frontline skills early on, but can be worth the trade if you intent to specialize.
Keep in mind that while the warpriest spell list isn't very exciting, it is prepared. This means that the warpriest's use of spells can be a lot more flexible than the inquisitor. Because the warpriest can leave slots empty and grab utility as it is needed from any spell on his list.
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The big issue with that list can be summed up in one word: Skills. They're mentioned, but not in reference to the Warpriest's problems.
The Inquisitor is one of the best skill classes in the game, the Hunter and Ranger aren't far behind, and even the Druid and Oracle have more skills than the Warpriest. Only Clerics and Paladins do as badly on that front, and their advantages over the Warpriest are pretty obvious (full BAB and being a 9th level caster, respectively).
Which means that, while in-combat the Warpriest is solid, outside combat they need to burn precious spell slots to even be relevant (and are worse at it than Clerics), and while as prepared casters they can do that better than a Hunter or Inquisitor...the fact remains that they need to while the Hunter and Inquisitor don't. So...they're theoretically slightly better outside combat than Paladins but nobody else. That's...not a good place to be for a 3/4 BAB Class.
That, combined with those Classes tending to be on-par or only slightly behind in-combat makes for little reason to play a Warpriest in any game with significant non-combat elements.
The big issue with that list can be summed up in one word: Skills. They're mentioned, but not in reference to the Warpriest's problems.
The Inquisitor is one of the best skill classes in the game, the Hunter and Ranger aren't far behind, and even the Druid and Oracle have more skills than the Warpriest. Only Clerics and Paladins do as badly on that front, and their advantages over the Warpriest are pretty obvious (full BAB and being a 9th level caster, respectively).
Which means that, while in-combat the Warpriest is solid, outside combat they need to burn precious spell slots to even be relevant (and are worse at it than Clerics), and while as prepared casters they can do that better than a Hunter or Inquisitor...the fact remains that they need to while the Hunter and Inquisitor don't. So...they're theoretically slightly better outside combat than Paladins but nobody else. That's...not a good place to be for a 3/4 BAB Class.
Agreed but it's not like it makes or breaks the class. It's just one of their trade offs. If it's really a problem, Cult Leader can outclass ANY and ALL divine classes in terms of stealth thanks to 12th level Hide in Plain Sight and Trickery Blessings.
Some other builds can provide a ton of OOC support -- War Blessings feat + Luck Blessing can make most skill challenges a cakewalk for your whole party.Warpriests have a ton of options and I think OP should really play one, I'm sure he'll have fun.
Thank you for all of the responses, though I'm not the one planning on playing a warpriest, as I mentioned. As to everyone who has said "try it", I've seen several in action and never been impressed, but I'm willing to run through some mock builds with my player to see how he feels it will fare.
It gets as many Feats as the Fighter does in total, if you're a Human, Scion of Humanity Aasimar, Throwback Gillman, Half-Elf, or Half-Orc.
The fighter starts off ahead and finishes at 11 bonus feats to the Warpriest's 9 + Weapon Focus. That's assuming you're including the FCB for humans, otherwise it would be the Fighter's 11 to the Human's 6 + Weapon Focus. Interestingly I'd argue the best feat class option for levels 1-10 is actually the slayer. At level 10 the slayer can gain 5 bonus feats to the fighter's 6, and the slayer doesn't have to meet the prerequisites for three of them. He's not as free to pick and choose as the fighter is though.
(...)A Warpriest, for example, can go (...)with much better stealth tools than a Ranger or Inquisitor. (...)
You can't be serio...
If it's really a problem, Cult Leader can outclass ANY and ALL divine classes in terms of stealth thanks to 12th level Hide in Plain Sight and Trickery Blessings.
Alrighty, let's do the comparison. Apart from having stealth as a class skill, the cult leader gains nothing at level 1-9 that helps him stealth. At level 10 he gets 1-round Greater Invisibility as a swift action via the trickery blessing, and at level 12 he gets HiPS.
Let's start with an inquisitor. At level 1 they're neck and neck. At level 3 we'll pick Stealth Synergy with our bonus feat to get rid of those pesky 1s. At level 4 we pick up Invisibility, giving us a +20 bonus to stealth checks and allowing us to completely ignore the section in the stealth rules for when you can and can't use stealth. At level 7 we pick up Nondetection, making Detect Invisibility and the like struggle that much harder to find us. At level 12 we pick up Greater Invisibility, because why not.
The cleric can take the Trickery Domain, which gives her Stealth as a class skill and access to kickass spells like Invisibility, Mislead and Mass Invisibility. If she plans ahead, she can also pick up Mind Blank with the Liberation, Protection or Thought domains to foil any detection spell around.
Oracles with the Wind mystery have the Invisibility revelation. They get Stealth as a class skill, and Invisibility at level 3 which automatically upgrades to Greater Invisibility at level 9. Bonus points since they don't have to use spell slots or spells known, they only pay a single revelation.
If you can't think of a way to make a good druid scout then you're honestly not trying hard enough. Wild Shape is the perfect tool for sneaking around.
Trust me, the Cult Leader is nowhere near the top of the divine stealth classes.
Inquisitors are restricted by spontaneous casting and a low number of feats in their builds. If an Inquisitor builds to shoot a bow and arrow...
This I have to agree with. The warpriest is the best option if you need to be a divine caster and want to get a feat-intensive combat style (dex-based TWF, low level archery, thrown weapons etc.) online ASAP. One significant advantage the Warpriest has over the paladin, cleric and inquisitor is that he can put together the feats needed for tricky combat styles faster. The Vital Strike build Arachnofiend mentions is another example of this.
Keep in mind that while the warpriest spell list isn't very exciting, it is prepared. This means that the warpriest's use of spells can be a lot more flexible than the inquisitor. Because the warpriest can leave slots empty and grab utility as it is needed from any spell on his list.
This is true, but the warpriest needs to burn both spell slots and Fervor to put out the numbers to keep up with other classes that are just using their class features. I ran the numbers with Undone when he wrote the Warpriest Guide. While the inquisitor spends a swift action and no spell slots to activate Bane, a warpriest uses both a level 1 spell slot and a Fervor charge to cast Divine Favor, for example. They go through spells almost as fast as a Spellstrike-happy Magus, but have no recovery option to regain spell slots. In my experience they rarely have enough resources to prepare the buff spells they rely on in combat as well as utility spells. Certainly not in the way a smart combat cleric can.
(...)Warpriests are the kings of middle of the road.(...)
Respectfully, I disagree. Compared to the other divine classes the warpriest scores as an average to good combatant (about on par with an inquisitor if they both start off unbuffed and go all out, significantly behind the inquisitor if they both prebuff and go all out) and is consistently below average in everything else. The only divine class I'd rank lower at utility than the warpriest is the Paladin.
While the warpriest does need to burn spells with fervor to keep up, those spells are in a fairly constrained spell level range. It's mostly just divine favor and divine power.