I was a little skeptical of Mystic Bolt beating out the Kineticist, but yeah- at level 8, getting a full attack with Rapid Shot really starts catching up with the Kineticist's blasts. On top of that, that's the level that Warlock can self-buff with Haste, leaving Kineticist in the dust. Kineticist does get 4x the range, better kiting, constant flight, super-blur against physical ranged attacks, better ability to deal with low-grade energy resistance. (To which Warlock replies, "Wizard spell list".) Warlock definitely seems set once it hits 8th level. If we're just looking at Warlock, not allowing an Extra Vigilante Talent feat makes a lot of sense.
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I feel avenger and stalker could be combined, and a lot of the half-talents could be nixed completely and we could get a class that functions more like a hybrid class of the fighter and rogue.
I'm going to agree with this point, because it was one of my first thoughts reading through the class. The Avenger seemed like a very interesting path to me, especially with the full-BAB ability, but I also felt like a number of its abilities revolved around some level of stealth that I wasn't quite seeing. The Stalker was the opposite--a stealthy "class" that really needed some more combat benefits to shine. So combining the two would be a lot of fun, would make them both better and probably more on par with the Warlock, would give the class a better niche in my opinion (probably similar to the Slayer but also different in its ways), and have the added benefit of feeling more Batman-esque.
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I feel avenger and stalker could be combined, and a lot of the half-talents could be nixed completely and we could get a class that functions more like a hybrid class of the fighter and rogue.I'm going to agree with this point, because it was one of my first thoughts reading through the class. The Avenger seemed like a very interesting path to me, especially with the full-BAB ability, but I also felt like a number of its abilities revolved around some level of stealth that I wasn't quite seeing. The Stalker was the opposite--a stealthy "class" that really needed some more combat benefits to shine. So combining the two would be a lot of fun, would make them both better and probably more on par with the Warlock, would give the class a better niche in my opinion (probably similar to the Slayer but also different in its ways), and have the added benefit of feeling more Batman-esque.
My suggestion would be that they both have an Avenger Cross Training talent for Stalker and a Stalker Cross Training talent for Avenger or something like that. It can only be taken once, but it lets you get a talent from the other one so long as you meet the pre-reqs. That way you can get the one thing you need, but it's not cherry-picking the best at each level.
yeah...My feeling is that avenger and stalker would actually function better as one path. Mostly because I think they just overlap too much in theme.
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My suggestion would be that they both have an Avenger Cross Training talent
I'm really not sure adding another Talent which would essentially be a tax is the way to go when so many Talents are so poor and the pool is so small.
It would probably be better to just remove all Talents from Specializations and allow anyone to take any of them as they want.
So a Stalker could take Armor Silence and Armor Skin freely, a Zealot could take Concealed Casting. All of which seems more appropriate to them than the Specialization that currently grants them, or at least equally so.
I'm really not sure adding another Talent which would essentially be a tax is the way to go when so many Talents are so poor and the pool is so small.
How is it a tax? You're taking a talent that gets you a talent. It is no more or less a tax than any other talent is, and combining them doesn't make it more or less of a tax.
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I'm really not sure adding another Talent which would essentially be a tax is the way to go when so many Talents are so poor and the pool is so small.How is it a tax? You're taking a talent that gets you a talent. It is no more or less a tax than any other talent is, and combining them doesn't make it more or less of a tax.
It's a tax in the sense that (I think) just about every single Vigilante would feel they need to take it to make the character they want.
Too many Talents have no reason being restricted to one Specialization. Actually, I'd even go so far as to say ALL Talents. Is there any reason a Stalker shouldn't be able to take Arcane/Divine Training? They will not be as good of a caster, as they don't get the additional skills and probably will not have as high of a casting stat. Needing a Feat or to use a Talent to do that probably isn't worth it.
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I'm really not sure adding another Talent which would essentially be a tax is the way to go when so many Talents are so poor and the pool is so small.How is it a tax? You're taking a talent that gets you a talent. It is no more or less a tax than any other talent is, and combining them doesn't make it more or less of a tax.It's a tax in the sense that (I think) just about every single Vigilante would feel they need to take it to make the character they want.
Too many Talents have no reason being restricted to one Specialization. Actually, I'd even go so far as to say ALL Talents. Is there any reason a Stalker shouldn't be able to take Arcane/Divine Training? They will not be as good of a caster, as they don't get the additional skills and probably will not have as high of a casting stat. Needing a Feat or to use a Talent to do that probably isn't worth it.
It would really be no different than the "Ninja Trick" Rogue Talent -- yeah, most characters might take it, but the actual Trick that they take would vary all over the place.
I think creating one giant pool of talents and letting players pick and choose would ultimately be great for the class, but it would also take away from much of what the design is aimed at, being that there are different kinds of vigilantes out there.
I think three specializations would be fine, although I can also reasonably see a fourth being added with the Hunter's spellcasting and more of a nature theme and WIS synergy, meaning that this class has no primary stats because it all depends on your choice. I also like the trichotomy of having an arcane based on INT, divine based on CHA, and nature based on WIS class.
I also think we need to get more utility out of the Bruce Wayne form. 1/2 level on social skills like bluff, diplomacy, knowledges and the like in Bruce Wayne form would make the class feature actually useful.
Maybe give it some other sort of out of combat use, something that can actually be used in a game.
So is the basic version of the class literally worse than rogue, either design-wise or power-wise? Because it sure seems like both.
So is the basic version of the class literally worse than rogue, either design-wise or power-wise? Because it sure seems like both.
Both the Avenger and the Stalker are weaker than the fighter and the rogue mechanically.
The fighter has much stronger combat options but less skills, and the rogue has both stronger combat options and more skills.
The stalker is the weakest class we have seen yet.
Sadly I was very impressed with Paizo's work for a while (unchained was cool and I love the implementation of skill unlocks and Occult Adventures is looking to be awesome), but this just seems so... incomplete...
I don't know, I'd say the Zealot's right there, too, but worse as it lacks kind of lacks much in the cool one-trick pony area. Might depend on your views of the spelllist casting and the Cha based, though.
The thing with the Zealot I feel like is that it just has no home. The problem with Divine classes as a whole is that it is hard to find a niche between The Paladin, the Inquisitor, and the Cleric/Oracle. The warpriest suffered from it a bit because the Cleric was just TOO good... this class is suffering from competition from the Inquisitor in the same spot (skill guy with divine spell casting)
I agree that the zealot feels too much like a poor man's inquisitor.
Is there any reason to play a zealot over an inquisitor? Especially when the inquisitor has so many archetypes?
The new class seems mechanically weaker but it also seems just to copy inquisitor features. In my opinion, there need to be more unique features to justify a new (sub-)class.
I like avenger and warlock and agree with most of Rynjin's assessments.
But even these two need some finishing to make them feel more unique.
The stalker definitly needs some serious upgrades. The mythic trickster path would be a nice place to start (supreme stealth, wall run, feather step,...)
I think creating one giant pool of talents and letting players pick and choose would ultimately be great for the class, but it would also take away from much of what the design is aimed at, being that there are different kinds of vigilantes out there.
Would it, though? I mean, if you want to be a "magical" vigilante you still need to take the Talent Chain if you want the higher magical abilities. Even if every Vigilante takes the plain Level 0/Level 1 casting, a lot of those spells are simple enough that they'd be something you could expect a superhuman to do anyway.
One giant pool of Talents and then adjusting the talents a bit so that they have different prerequisites (while also buffing a few abiities) would probably work fine and still allow you to make specific concepts.
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1. Weapon and Armor Proficiency: "Baker by day; Vigilante by night," this guy has no business knowing how to wield martial weapons or shields, or even medium armor. I say remove all those, and instead grant them "Any one Exotic Weapon Proficiency of choice, or Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything or Improved Unarmed Strike feat." Perhaps then add "medium armor + shields" as an Avenger talent. I don't really see a Warlock or anything else really slinging shield and medium armor... If you think about most super heroes / vigilante genre characters, like Daredevil, they'll have weird weapon that's unusual or fight really good with their hands or whatever street sign or bar stool they get their hands on... I'd go even further and say that I wouldn't have a problem if they get all of the above listed feats instead of martial weapons and shields, or perhaps one bonus feat at level 1, 2, 3 and 4 (to choose from any one Exotic Weapon Proficiency of choice, or Catch Off-Guard or Throw Anything or Improved Unarmed Strike feat) as this would make the most sense with a cape type with a secret identity.
2. Two alignments in one brain??!?!? I can't truly grasp the two alignment concept... really they should have a real alignment and perhaps their mundane/social alias should "pretend" to be a different alignment for the sake of blending into the society they live in, but to have two separate alignment in one brain just borders too much on multiple identity disorder to me... or maybe that's the point? I mean oracles have "curses" and this vigilante, well, he's just bat s@#% crazy and you have to accept it? if not, make it "Vigilante have one true alignment, but they can pretend to be any one other alignment within one step of their true alignment for the purpose of spell effects, alignment detection, and so on."
So is the basic version of the class literally worse than rogue, either design-wise or power-wise? Because it sure seems like both.
I wouldn't say worse than the Core Rogue, exactly. It has a few things going for it:
-Medium Armor
-Good Will save
-All Martial weapons
And some of the Talents are very cool, if mechanically weak (which is a leg up over Rogue Talents that are generally both boring AND weak).
But "better than the Core Rogue" is faint praise.
The Unchained Rogue's Debilitating Injury shoves it over the Stalker, and that class is even still pretty weak.
I would scrap Sneak Attack Hidden Strike entirely and replace it with something both slightly more interesting and with more oomph. It doesn't fit for a class that's meant to emulate Batman and the like, this whole relying on flanking to properly use it thing.
Something akin to Studied Combat or Studied Target but different would be best, a Move/Swift action to gain certain bonuses against the enemy.
I think something like a Dodge bonus to AC, plus a bonus to-hit would fit best here. And then just have stuff like Foe Collision simply deal a number of extra d6's of damage to someone adjacent to your Prey.
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Leave an Opening is amazing, giving you a bonus attack every round you deal Hidden Strike damage (the number of instances an enemy can leave your threatened area on another person's turn are few and far between). Combined with Up Close and Personal you can get up to 3 attacks at your highest bab against an enemy by level 4, dealing Hidden Strike damage on one. It also rewards you for positioning well, since using your Swift on one enemy and hitting a flanked enemy with your standard nets you two more attacks instead of one. I'm strongly considering a Halfling Opportunist build, partly for the synergy of bonus damage on AoOs and partly for an excuse to use it :P
Also, not surprising that so many people overlook ranged Hidden Strike builds, but the combination of Hide in Plain Sight and Sudden Appearance guarantees a full-round ranged sneak attack almost every combat. Even reduced to d4s after the first attack it's still ridiculously powerful. If only I could find a way to do archery and take the Snap Shot line. Greater Invisibility or Obscuring Mist and fogcutter's lenses means nobody sees you, so they all take Hidden Strike damage, and anyone you hit within 15' gets hit again on their turn for more Hidden Strike damage. Did someone say "Arrow"?
I think stalker does struggle somewhat to be more than "dual identity rogue." Conceptually, it seems like a little Sherlock Holmes, a little Shadow, a little Scarlet Pimpernel. But I'm not feeling the oomph.
The Unchained Rogue's Debilitating Injury shoves it over the Stalker, and that class is even still pretty weak.
I would scrap
Sneak AttackHidden Strike entirely and replace it with something both slightly more interesting and with more oomph. It doesn't fit for a class that's meant to emulate Batman and the like, this whole relying on flanking to properly use it thing.
How about we don't scrap it, but we improve it?
Currently, we get sneak attack that is nerfed. d6 when enemy unaware, and d4 when aware.Instead, let it do d8 when enemy not caught unaware, but d6 when aware. Rewarding you for fighting in the thematic way instead punishing you for not.
I feel your dodge AC/hit would be a better remade version of what Surprise Strike is supposed to emulate.
They were too conservative with some of these talents.
Sneak Attack slightly buffed is still Sneak Attack, which sucks and still isn't thematic for a guy supposed to be somewhat of a lone wolf.
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Nah the best idea I could see coming to fruition is scrapping Avenger and Stalker and somewhat combining them.
Make this "Batman"
In current media Batman is a strong and quick guy wearing heavy armor like a second skin and still capable of retreating silently into the shadows at a moments notice. You know what that sounds like to me? Avenger and Stalker combined. The Avenger can't even hide in plain sight. The Stalker can't even perform close quarter martial arts (Grappling, dragging, tripping, ect) properly. Both of these are Batman tricks. The Avenger and Stalker are incomplete when separated.
But I dont wanna be Batman!
Well you don't have to. The Zealot and Warlock are not Batman. If the dev team makes more specializations those wont be Batman either. So just let this one be Batman. Also there are plenty of other classes that fulfill whatever role you're thinking of as a counterargument.
I'm sadly not going to get to do proper playtesting, and from what I can see on the forums for the playtest, there isn't really a better thread to add these comments so here they shall go...
The class is interesting, and ambitious in a sense, but I'm unsure if its a great fit for most of Pathfinder and I really wonder how it would work in a group that isn't a bunch of vigilantes, etc.
It opens up interesting opportunities but it does, for the reasons people are talking about here and in the the playtests, seem like it's many classes shoved into one.
I'd almost sooner see each of the "types" of vigilante as a new Class-type... adding to the Core - Base - Alternate - Hybrid set up, with at least all four of the options as new, full classes in the "Vigilante" class types. Maybe call them Social or something alternately.
Some would likely argue that the class, in that way, could be converted to new archetypes or something, but I'm fine with a new type of classes being added, though I'd also be fine with these being rebranded as Alternate Classes for what they're clearly mimicing... though many people would likely love to see a Warlock-stand-alone class.
My 2 cp, and it's not based on playtest. Then again, if Ultimate Intrigue is going to be like Ultimate Combat and Ultimate Magic, the real value of this class wont be understood until we get all the new options that will be coming from Ult. Intrigue, like social combat, etc.
I like to assume Paizo knows what they're doing with the design, and I like everything they've added in the past once it's been fully out, but the Vigilante seems to be a new angle I haven't been able to wrap my head around.