Anyone who's put at least 1 rank in Acrobatics knows how well long their average jump is (and even someone who has 0 ranks can quickly figure it out by doing a few test jumps). If you know on average you can jump 10 feet, and you find a chasm that's 5-9 feet across, then you know you can jump across the cavern. And you don't have to make a roll to do it.Emphasis and confusion of chasm/cavern his.
Related to acrobatics and taking 10.
And how the Acrobatics DCs were set: Sean jumped 6 feet from standing on what was essentially taking 10, so clearing 5 feet with the DC doubled was what set DC 10 as what someone taking 10 could do.
What a sight that meeting must've been.
That one's up there, but Jason's experiments with computer mice for weapon cords are still the design meeting I most want to see footage from.
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I would like to think that the current pause in the previously fast-paced thread is due to everyone getting off their computers and measuring how far they can jump.
10+ε, for some arbitrarily small positive number ε.Cheapy convinced me.
But Cheapy do you need to do a DC 11 jump to clear a 10ft gap or a DC 10?
Rounded down...since you always round down in Pathfinder.
Which actually does bring me to a significant point. In Pathfinder tactical combat, the 'integer' is a 5' square. A square is either a pit, or it isn't. Similar for most other hazards and terrain. In most cases, a 10' pit probably isn't precisely 10' across, rather it is 2 squares across, the majority of which each is 'pit.'
I see this has been asked a few times before (searched for jump horizontal), and there are always several schools of thought on it. I personally prefer the ruling "DC is width of space", as long as you have enough run-up and enough room on the other side as the jump itself is not the whole of the Move (see below):
A better example is the standing jump. Why would you stand 2.5 feet away from the edge of a 5' pit (DC10) for a standing jump over it?!
I'd say, in your initiative, you would first:
a. walk up to the edge of the pit (2.5'),
b. take the squat-jump (5'=DC10), then
c. keep moving on the other side (2.5' + rest of Acr) as far as your Acrobatics took you...
d. plus as much extra walking/forward rolls/fancy stuff you want afterwards up to your full 1xMove (which is optional past the "reach middle of first safe square").
If you made the roll *exactly*, (and I were feeling harsh), I may say "PC is teetering on the edge of Pit, make a Reflex save to wobble forwards instead of backwards..." };>
My personal interpretation matches these two examples from the above thread (some of the others are the other school of thought...):
Sophismata:
A) DC10 (you are crossing a 5ft wide chasm)
B) DC20 (crossing a 10ft wide chasm)Like with many elements of the rules, the jump itself is an abstraction. You are not necessarily jumping from one square to another, you are jumping as _part of_ a normal move action. IE, jumping is effectively, but not explicitly, a part of movement.
This not only neatly bypasses the issues with large creatures, it is consistent with the acrobatics rules as written and explains why you need available movement to make a jump. Jumping is not so much a separate action as it is subsumed into a regular move.
RedDogMT:
While _movement_ is calculated in 5 foot increments, jumping is _not_ a type of movement. It is something that can be done _during_ movement that has its own guidelines. So, jumping a 10 foot gap is a DC10 (running) or DC20 (standing)."
So...
As long as PC has space for their total (current) feet a round:1. the total of squares on either side of the pit-jump PLUS the pit-width Must be less or equal to "Total 1xMove",
AND
2a. Acrobatics Roll >= width of pit, OR 2b. Acrobatics Rollx2 >= width for standing jump
...then the PC can land relatively safely and complete 1XMove...
oh, the other thread goes into it, but what if (due to spells, racials etc.) you can jump FURTHER than your 1xMove? Do you complete the rest of the Jump in the next round as you are still sailing through the air (as you wouldn't suddenly drop, you would complete an arc), or do you need to rethink your life and stop jumping over 30' pits with an Acrobatics of 60?
(did 3.5 have "it eats up double move", you can't do anything else?)
>'.'< :/
Ofc, it's funny when on the other side there is only 5' and a wall, and then you bounce backwards off it from the momentum... or a gelatinous cube... what's the rules on Braking...?
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I shall relent in light of SKR's post (thank you, Cheapy), but this will likely cause future issues with tactical movement.
As I likened in the other thread, when the Olympics count how far a person jumps, it's their total distance that's counted, not their total distance minus 5ft.
Treating the rules this way isn't intuitive.
PS: Thanks Cheapy :D (and Indirectly Sean)
I may have equivalent of one rank in Jump IRL (did it at school a bit so I know the techniques) but my STR probably gives me a negative total given when I was 15 I could only running Jump 7 feet... :(
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I shall relent in light of SKR's post (thank you, Cheapy), but this will likely cause future issues with tactical movement.
As I likened in the other thread, when the Olympics count how far a person jumps, it's their total distance that's counted, not their total distance minus 5ft.
Treating the rules this way isn't intuitive.
And yet it is how I have intuitively understood them since 3.5.
To answer your Olympics point, they also do not measure the long jump as the distance jumped plus the movement they make after hitting the ground.
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Ironically, that take ten is how we started
Its the ciiircle of liiiife
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I would like everyone to consider this:
You take a run at the pit which is EXACTLY ten feet wide.
You launch EXACTLY at the edge of the pit. The front of your feet travel ten feet. Man you are good, you must have a laser rangefinder built into your head.
Having not propelled the back of your feet far enough to clear the obstacle, you fall in.
Your toes scrape the side of the pit, so close.
Gravity accelerates you downward, you flail your arms in an attempt to grab the edge of the pit.
No saving throw mentioned in rules... so none allowed.
You bash your face on the edge of the pit on the way down... you plummet to the bottom, impacting heavily.
Apply falling damage.
If you do not exceed the distance, you have not cleared the obstacle.
You have traveled ten feet from your starting point.
You need to travel slightly more than that.
I would argue that DC 10 is out.
In our games we don't worry about travelling in multiples of five feet outside of combat (I mean, how weird would it be IRL if you couldn't walk three feet to grab your phone-DAMN overshot it again!).
DC 11.
If you adhere to squares on maps, DC 15 you weird, minecrafty person.
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Your toes scrape the side of the pit, so close.
Gravity accelerates you downward, you flail your arms in an attempt to grab the edge of the pit.
No saving throw mentioned in rules... so none allowed.
INCORRECT!
If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump.
I would argue that DC 10 is out.
ALSO INCORRECT!
10 feet - 10
Yes, but a jumper can mess up by jumping too early in Olympics.
The _total_ jump they did may be 25', but the measured distance from the plank with the clay on it (or edge of pit) is what counts, so they only get measured 24'8" (World Record). and that gets measured by the Rear of the jumper grazing the sand; the rest of them is *forward* from the 25', and they also throw themselves forward to do this...
It would still be enough for a 25' pit (DC25, Just) PLUS, a PC's "wild jump across a chasm" would probably have grazed the theoretical sand a couple of feet back anyway.
Olympic jumpers are as clean as can be as they get docked feet for being messy; PC Jumpers probably have a leg back over the pit and are forward rolling with their Acrobatics to finish in the first safe square...
When you measure a jump it is typically the area traversed between the two closest points of where you land. So if I long jump 10', it means between my toes (when I took off) and my heel (of the foot I landed on) was 10'.
You don't measure toe to toe.
Your toes scrape the side of the pit, so close.
Gravity accelerates you downward, you flail your arms in an attempt to grab the edge of the pit.
No saving throw mentioned in rules... so none allowed.
INCORRECT!
If you fail this check by 4 or less, you can attempt a DC 20 Reflex save to grab hold of the other side after having missed the jump.
Well there you go!
I still say DC 11 or higher. For sure not 10.
I still say DC 11 or higher. For sure not 10.Then you are saying the distance to be jumped is 11, not 10.
Because you need to jump over the 10ft pit.
Yup.
Front of feet move ten feet.
Pit is ten feet wide.
You don't land on other side of pit.
Toes... just brush edge of pit. Fall.
You DO get a save though. Thanks for pointing that out.
Imagine a ten foot box with doors. Stand with nose touching door on outside of box.
Open door.
Walk ten feet.
Are you out the other side of the box? Nope, standing inside with nose touching far wall.
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Because you need to jump over the 10ft pit.I still say DC 11 or higher. For sure not 10.Then you are saying the distance to be jumped is 11, not 10.
If you are treating the distance to be jumped equal to the pit, it's DC10. If you are requiring the PC to jump 11ft to ensure he is on solid ground, the DC is 11.
I personally assume that the PC can keep moving to that 11th foot. He doesn't have to be jumping 11 feet, just 10.
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Yup.
Front of feet move ten feet.
Pit is ten feet wide.
You don't land on other side of pit.
Toes... just brush edge of pit. Fall.You DO get a save though. Thanks for pointing that out.
Imagine a ten foot box with doors. Stand with nose touching door on outside of box.
Open door.
Walk ten feet.
Are you out the other side of the box? Nope, standing inside with nose touching far wall.
Jumping measured the distance cleared, not how far you move. It isn't toe-to-toe it is toe-to-heel.
Basically, DC 10 would move you ten feet, not arguing that. But to jump over a ten foot pit, you need to account for the thickness of your own body.
Assuming about a foot thickness for a person, you need to then travel eleven feet.
Paint a ten foot square on the ground. Run at it, launch right at the edge.
Travel ten feet. You land on the interior of the square. Toes right at the edge (assuming perfect launch and precisely ten feet travelled). If you want to jump OVER the square, you must jump more than it's length/width/distance, not equal to it.
DC 10 would have you land IN the pit (with a saving throw, as mentioned earlier).
Whether it's DC 11 or 15 is up to your GM. But not DC 10.
Or toe-to-bum, for Olympians :P. the whole of their body is in the square *after* the edge of their bum...
If an Olympian measured Long Jump was measured toe to toe (i.e. how you move star wars models in the war game) then the record would be 24'8" PLUS the thickness of their body?
Jumping measured the distance cleared, not how far you move. It isn't toe-to-toe it is toe-to-heel.Yup.
Front of feet move ten feet.
Pit is ten feet wide.
You don't land on other side of pit.
Toes... just brush edge of pit. Fall.You DO get a save though. Thanks for pointing that out.
Imagine a ten foot box with doors. Stand with nose touching door on outside of box.
Open door.
Walk ten feet.
Are you out the other side of the box? Nope, standing inside with nose touching far wall.
Think about it. I'm not wrong here. My example above perfectly shows that. You clear ten feet, sure. Does it actually SAY jumping distance assumes toe to heel? If so, where?
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Basically, DC 10 would move you ten feet, not arguing that. But to jump over a ten foot pit, you need to account for the thickness of your own body.
That is a granularity not included in the rules. You're welcome to rule how you like to suit your own view of realism, but it's not hardcoded into the rules. You make DC10, you jump 10 feet.
you can jump as part of movement and thus even though you have to move 15 feet, only 10 feet of that movement is spent jumping and thus DC 10. 2.5 before and then 2.5 after the jump.
Basically, DC 10 would move you ten feet, not arguing that. But to jump over a ten foot pit, you need to account for the thickness of your own body.That is a granularity not included in the rules. You're welcome to rule how you like to suit your own view of realism, but it's not hardcoded into the rules. You make DC10, you jump 10 feet.
Absolutely correct.
However, ten feet is not enough to get across a ten foot pit...
Draw it out, measure it, whatever you like.
Go get a G.I. Joe and make a mockup.
Do you want to jump to the far wall of the pit, or do you want to jump far enough to avoid falling IN the pit?
As you said, I'm welcome to rule as I see fit, that's why we say "there is a crevasse 20 feet wide, do you want to jump into it, or OVER it? If you wanna clear it, you have to travel a distance greater than 20 feet."
Basically, DC 10 would move you ten feet, not arguing that. But to jump over a ten foot pit, you need to account for the thickness of your own body.That is a granularity not included in the rules. You're welcome to rule how you like to suit your own view of realism, but it's not hardcoded into the rules. You make DC10, you jump 10 feet.Absolutely correct.
However, ten feet is not enough to get across a ten foot pit...
Draw it out, measure it, whatever you like.Go get a G.I. Joe and make a mockup.
Do you want to jump to the far wall of the pit, or do you want to jump far enough to avoid falling IN the pit?
As you said, I'm welcome to rule as I see fit, that's why we say "there is a crevasse 20 feet wide, do you want to jump into it, or OVER it? If you wanna clear it, you have to travel a distance greater than 20 feet."
yes it is, heel to edge and then heel to edge. your entire foot doesn't need to be on the ground to jump, only about half of it.
yes it is, heel to edge and then heel to edge.Basically, DC 10 would move you ten feet, not arguing that. But to jump over a ten foot pit, you need to account for the thickness of your own body.That is a granularity not included in the rules. You're welcome to rule how you like to suit your own view of realism, but it's not hardcoded into the rules. You make DC10, you jump 10 feet.Absolutely correct.
However, ten feet is not enough to get across a ten foot pit...
Draw it out, measure it, whatever you like.Go get a G.I. Joe and make a mockup.
Do you want to jump to the far wall of the pit, or do you want to jump far enough to avoid falling IN the pit?
As you said, I'm welcome to rule as I see fit, that's why we say "there is a crevasse 20 feet wide, do you want to jump into it, or OVER it? If you wanna clear it, you have to travel a distance greater than 20 feet."
Um, what are you standing on when you launch if your heel isn't on solid land.
Literally draw it out, seriously.
Granted, I'm assuming that travelling ten feet means you alter your position in space by ten feet...
Front of body moves ten feet.
Back of body also moves ten feet.
Gotta account for your body.
I may be nitpicking, but I really don't think DC 10 will allow you to jump PAST a 10 foot wide obstacle. It allows you to jump into/onto it. 11 feet to clear it.
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Absolutely correct.
However, ten feet is not enough to get across a ten foot pit...
It absolutely is, as you stick your leg out and keep moving forward. You touch down at ten feet, the exact point where you can move into the next square.
We can argue all you want about where you measure the ten feet from, how much further back your foot is, how far you can extend your leg to reach past the jump, but none of that is considered in the rules.
If the PC makes DC9, then he has to make a save to catch himself. If he makes DC10, he can continue moving.
Also, -4 is a big penalty. :P
Alex, your *Move* speed IS the Travel part. The DC is just the bit for the hole-width... it's separate from travel...
So a Halfling in full plate might be in trouble over a 20' pit, but an unencumbred human can usually "travel a distance of 30 feet".
see above toe-to-bum bit...
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I would like everyone to consider this:
You take a run at the pit which is EXACTLY ten feet wide.
You launch EXACTLY at the edge of the pit. The front of your feet travel ten feet. Man you are good, you must have a laser rangefinder built into your head.
Having not propelled the back of your feet far enough to clear the obstacle, you fall in.
I'm a halfling. I really only need to land on the ball of my foot, because forward momentum will carry me forward as long as I have a pivot point for it to do so. The distance from the extreme tip of my toes to the fall of my foot is about 3/4 of an inch.
That's a lot less than 12 inches.
In fact, it's so much less that we'd pretty much always round it down.
"10 feet" is not a super-exact measurement even within the limitations of the system as we have it. We have no way to say that a 9 ft, 9 inch pit even exists.
You are overshooting the system's significant digits.
Does it actually SAY jumping distance assumes toe to heel? If so, where?
The rules don't say it. That is how a jump is measured in the real world. If someone comes up to you and says they achieved a 10' long jump, it means no part of their body touched the ground for that 10'. Absent anything to clarify or explain that a 10' jump in Pathfinder means something different than a 10' jump in the real world, it is logical to conclude that the common terminology is what is being used.
I would like everyone to consider this:
You take a run at the pit which is EXACTLY ten feet wide.
You launch EXACTLY at the edge of the pit. The front of your feet travel ten feet. Man you are good, you must have a laser rangefinder built into your head.
Having not propelled the back of your feet far enough to clear the obstacle, you fall in.
I'm a halfling. I really only need to land on the ball of my foot, because forward momentum will carry me forward as long as I have a pivot point for it to do so. The distance from the extreme tip of my toes is about an inch and a half.
That's a lot less than 12 inches.
In fact, it's so much less that we'd pretty much always round it down.
"10 feet" is not a super-exact measurement even within the limitations of the system as we have it. We have no way to say that a 9 ft, 9 inch pit even exists.
You are overshooting the system's significant digits.
Where do they mention that? Mostly we just do storytelling, it's easy to describe a 9 foot, 9 inch pit, look, I just did!
You don't jump nine feet to clear that. Ten feet will work though.
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stuff about feet
back half of foot is on ledge at start, 10 feet later your front half of foot is on the ledge. pretty easy.
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And yet it is how I have intuitively understood them since 3.5.I shall relent in light of SKR's post (thank you, Cheapy), but this will likely cause future issues with tactical movement.
As I likened in the other thread, when the Olympics count how far a person jumps, it's their total distance that's counted, not their total distance minus 5ft.
Treating the rules this way isn't intuitive.
I think we've already established that we each believe the other's view to be silly, but I'll try one more time to illustrate it:
Olympian PCs A and B are finalists in the Pathfinder Horizontal Acrobatics competition. A is fit (Dex +3), and has practiced (4 ranks, class skill), giving them a total bonus of +10 to Acrobatics. B only has one rank, still a class skill, but only a Dexterity of 12, giving them a total bonus of +5 to Acrobatics.
A goes first, gets their running start, and takes 10 for a total of 20 feet traveled. A lands 4 squares away. Olympian B doesn't look troubled by this.
A: "Beat that, B. You can't win by taking 10 this time!"
B: "Hey, Krusk, initiate plan 'Acid Pit'."
B: "Watch this."
B gets their running start, aiming to jump over the pit, and takes 10 to clear the 15ft obstacle, landing 20ft (4 squares) away.
The match is declared a tie. Both contestants having cleared a total distance of 20ft despite utilizing different rules arguments.
This is how silly I see it.
Also, -4 is a big penalty. :P
DON'T CROSS THE STREAMS!
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I would like everyone to consider this:
You take a run at the pit which is EXACTLY ten feet wide.
You launch EXACTLY at the edge of the pit. The front of your feet travel ten feet. Man you are good, you must have a laser rangefinder built into your head.
Having not propelled the back of your feet far enough to clear the obstacle, you fall in.
I'm a halfling. I really only need to land on the ball of my foot, because forward momentum will carry me forward as long as I have a pivot point for it to do so. The distance from the extreme tip of my toes is about an inch and a half.
That's a lot less than 12 inches.
In fact, it's so much less that we'd pretty much always round it down.
"10 feet" is not a super-exact measurement even within the limitations of the system as we have it. We have no way to say that a 9 ft, 9 inch pit even exists.
You are overshooting the system's significant digits.
Where do they mention that? Mostly we just do storytelling, it's easy to describe a 9 foot, 9 inch pit, look, I just did!
You don't jump nine feet to clear that. Ten feet will work though.
And, since you ignored the important part of my post, I'll ask it outright: how far do you actually need to jump to clear 10 feet? 10 feet and, what, like two inches? What's the DC for 10 1/6 feet, exactly?
Let me throw another hypothetical at you. Let's say there is a ten foot pit with a 11 inch ledge on the far side. A flat wall is precisely 10 feet 11 inches from the near edge of the pit. In your view, how exactly can one stand at the very edge of the pit and jump across it?
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okay so there's a ledge 4 feet higher than the highest you can reach what is the DC to grab the ledge, 16? or 17 because you need your fingers to get above the ledge to get a grip.
When you land, you only need to barely land, not land 2-3 feet beyond the far edge.
That's not actually true. You want to land as far past the far edge as you can, not land with your heels on the edge, causing you to stumble and fall in. And, realistically, most people other than track athletes, when they make a long jump that's past an easy hop, end up falling backwards when they land.
Granted, the game doesn't model all that, and I'm inclined to believe the rule as intended is DC 10. but I'd have no particular issue with a DM who ruled DC 11 or 15, rather than 10.
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When you land, you only need to barely land, not land 2-3 feet beyond the far edge.That's not actually true. You want to land as far past the far edge as you can, not land with your heels on the edge, causing you to stumble and fall in. And, realistically, most people other than track athletes, when they make a long jump that's past an easy hop, end up falling backwards when they land.
Granted, the game doesn't model all that, but I'd have no particular issue with a DM who ruled DC 11 or 15, rather than 10.
what if you have to land on a rope...
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Jumping measured the distance cleared, not how far you move. It isn't toe-to-toe it is toe-to-heel.Think about it. I'm not wrong here. My example above perfectly shows that. You clear ten feet, sure. Does it actually SAY jumping distance assumes toe to heel? If so, where?*facepalm*
Have you never ever seen a long jump event in person or on TV? Since the rules don't explain how long jump distances are measured, they follow the societal default:
The competitor can initiate the jump from any point behind the foul line; however, the distance measured will always be perpendicular to the foul line to the nearest break in the sand caused by any part of the body or uniform.The "nearest break in the sand" is going to be caused by your heel if you land on your feet. A "long jump" distance is the distance cleared by your entire body. I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated, but it's not a toe-to-toe measurement.
Perhaps now we can put all this DC11 stuff to bed.
Sorry, does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump ten feet, or does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump over ten feet?
If I'm reading it wrong, I will admit to it.
Seriously, if you wanna jump over a ten foot pit, you gotta jump OVER ten feet, it's right there in the advertising.
If we go by the square model, there are four squares involved in a straight line.
1)launching square
2)first square of pit
3)second square of pit
4)landing zone
Take your miniature, move it two squares from the launch zone.
Where is it? Square number 3. You have successfully jumped ten feet.
Or is that wrong too? Have I really been doing it wrong this whole time? My friends are gonna tease me...
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stuffSorry, does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump ten feet, or does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump over ten feet?
If I'm reading it wrong, I will admit to it.
Seriously, if you wanna jump over a ten foot pit, you gotta jump OVER ten feet, it's right there in the advertising.
If we go by the square model, there are four squares involved in a straight line.
1)launching square
2)first square of pit
3)second square of pit
4)landing zoneOr is that wrong too? Have I really been doing it wrong this whole time? My friends are gonna tease me...
what if your feet were 5 feet long, how much would you have to jump across a 10 foot pit?
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Jumping measured the distance cleared, not how far you move. It isn't toe-to-toe it is toe-to-heel.Think about it. I'm not wrong here. My example above perfectly shows that. You clear ten feet, sure. Does it actually SAY jumping distance assumes toe to heel? If so, where?*facepalm*
Have you never ever seen a long jump event in person or on TV? Since the rules don't explain how long jump distances are measured, they follow the societal default:
The competitor can initiate the jump from any point behind the foul line; however, the distance measured will always be perpendicular to the foul line to the nearest break in the sand caused by any part of the body or uniform.The "nearest break in the sand" is going to be caused by your heel if you land on your feet. A "long jump" distance is the distance cleared by your entire body. I don't know how many times it needs to be repeated, but it's not a toe-to-toe measurement.
Perhaps now we can put all this DC11 stuff to bed.
Sorry, does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump ten feet, or does it say that DC 10 allows you to jump over ten feet?
If I'm reading it wrong, I will admit to it.
As quoted in the first post, it says "distance to be crossed".