I think the problem is that what most people wanted out of the Druid VMC was wildshape. I would have gladly spent all of those feats for Wildshape with HD=Druid level.
Yeah... I was really looking forward to having a barbarian or fighter that wildshapes. Now... not so much.
Diviner Wizard? +2 Perception, +14 Initiative, always act in surprise rounds, auto nat 20 on initiative. And some other minor tricks to boot. Yeah, I'd trade five feats for that.
You missed something.
"If any of those powers grant an extra effect
at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect."
"At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."
Diviner Wizard? +2 Perception, +14 Initiative, always act in surprise rounds, auto nat 20 on initiative. And some other minor tricks to boot. Yeah, I'd trade five feats for that.You missed something.
"If any of those powers grant an extra effect
at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect.""At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."
Wizard is still a very strong VMC despite that, though. I could easily see a martial character VMC'ing for the Teleportation school.
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Sounds like we need a Variant Multiclassing guide.
Huh. So I did. Go figure.
*Shrug* As a Fighter I'd still trade those feats for always acting in the surprise round and that +14 initiative. Plus whatever you can get out of an Arcane Discovery (if nothing else, I guess you can pick up Time Stop as a pseudo-pounce via the free move action-- though I'm sure there are better options I haven't taken a close look at the Discoveries). I'd honestly consider making it six feats; the Divination school's other ability is a SLA, and while it's normally not great for more than a setup when you're not in reach to attack or an out-of-combat trick to buff up a skill check, Quickened SLA makes it pretty decent in battle for the classes who can't leverage swift actions efficiently.
Yep, that ONE wizard school may be worth the feats. It goes down hill QUICKLY for most others. Shapechange is ok and wood could work on a investigator. I struggle to see the others usefulness on characters that don't have high int/cha's.
As far as Discoveries, Beyond Morality, Feral Speech, Knowledge Is Power, Staff-Like Wand, Time Stutter and True Name work for non-casters. Knowledge Is Power works quite well for an Investigators.(add your Intelligence modifier on combat maneuver checks, CMD and Strength checks to break or lift objects)
Arachnofiend: Teleporting is interesting but it's reliance on int for uses per day limits it a LOT less cool for a classes that don't otherwise use that stat (or dump it). Super-sweet for investigators but not so great for others that may only get 3 (or less with int dump) uses.
EDIT: Blackwaltzomega, missed air. Three abilities at will isn't bad and make up for Lightning Flash being int based for uses.
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Overall I've found a use in my characters for every VMC other than Gunslinger as it sucks. Cleric is not good unless you choose a domain that gives you a familiar or a good side bonus along with the normal powers of the domain I.E. Travel or Trickery or something(If you don't get those abilities then meh it's not very good)
I don't have an issue with the VMC system in general. It's a neat idea.
I do have a very serious issue with how inconsistently created they are. Most are fine and interesting, but some such as the VMC gunslinger and monk are so bad it's actually insulting to read. I trade feats for... delayed feats? The gunslinger especially is an absolute waste of space. As the saying goes, I don't have to be a film director to understand poor film direction.
I also have problems with 'suck now to be better later' class abilities and options, which a lot of the back-loaded VMCs appear to be. The reverse, 'this ability is awful but it's ok because you got better abilities elsewhere which balance', is also pretty lacklustre. Ideally every ability I gain should at the very least be interesting or impactful at the barest minimum. Sure wizard VMC is actually quite decent but that doesn't forgive how utterly mind-numbly uninteresting and meaningless 11th level cantrips are from a pure design perspective.
Wizard is still a very strong VMC despite that, though. I could easily see a martial character VMC'ing for the Teleportation school.Diviner Wizard? +2 Perception, +14 Initiative, always act in surprise rounds, auto nat 20 on initiative. And some other minor tricks to boot. Yeah, I'd trade five feats for that.You missed something.
"If any of those powers grant an extra effect
at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect.""At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."
Yeah, the natural 20 on initiative is gravy. The meat of the school is the ability to act in the surprise round, with a nice side dish of getting to probably go first too.
Teleportation school's Shift power is certainly nice too. It does have the issue of not enabling full attacking very well unless Dimensional Agility is picked up, which requires being able to cast dimension door (or getting a fairly reasonable houserule made that dimension door like abilities count for it's prereqs).
Admixture also lets sorcerers be blasters without suffering greatly from resistance/immunity to fire, although it does have the issue of being int based (but eh, between face skills, UMD and spellcraft many sorcerers need a decent int anyway).
Really though, the reason the wizard VMC is good is that a)a familiar for a feat is a really good trade and b)some school powers are obnoxiously strong. If the Foresight school and similar high-powered options were on the same level as the Universalist school there would be a lot more complaining about how weak the wizard VMC is.
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Wizard is still a very strong VMC despite that, though. I could easily see a martial character VMC'ing for the Teleportation school.Diviner Wizard? +2 Perception, +14 Initiative, always act in surprise rounds, auto nat 20 on initiative. And some other minor tricks to boot. Yeah, I'd trade five feats for that.You missed something.
"If any of those powers grant an extra effect
at 20th level, the character does not gain that extra effect.""At 20th level, anytime you roll initiative, assume the roll resulted in a natural 20."
I built a summoner with the Teleportation VMC - really looking forward to using her. ^_^
It offers feat level abilities for the cost of feats. I don't really see how it could do more.You get way less than a feat for most of the abilities
Examples?
Examples?It offers feat level abilities for the cost of feats. I don't really see how it could do more.You get way less than a feat for most of the abilities
"the 1st benefit, you gain a patron" for the witch. Confirmed to give no bonus at all, not even the spells listed.
So, you spend a feat to gain nothing, in this case.
Examples?It offers feat level abilities for the cost of feats. I don't really see how it could do more.You get way less than a feat for most of the abilities"the 1st benefit, you gain a patron" for the witch. Confirmed to give no bonus at all, not even the spells listed.
So, you spend a feat to gain nothing, in this case.
You don't trade out a feat at first level.
Level 1 VMC levels little things that add flavor, you don't trade a feat for them. The Paladin, Cleric, and Cavalier also get a level 1 power, and they are all basically "You must follow the Paladins code"
so really, your gaing a patorn for free, in addition to all of the other VMC the other classes get.
And while some of the VMC gains in the VMC chain are smaller than others, can you really say any of them are worse than Combat Expertise, which is a part of many a feat chain?
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Examples?It offers feat level abilities for the cost of feats. I don't really see how it could do more.You get way less than a feat for most of the abilities"the 1st benefit, you gain a patron" for the witch. Confirmed to give no bonus at all, not even the spells listed.
So, you spend a feat to gain nothing, in this case.
You don't lose the first feat until 3rd level, when you get a familiar. A feat for a familiar is a great trade.
There are some pervious options that VMCing actually makes better.
For example the Internal Alchemist archetype. Just looking at what it gains as abilities it's pretty much designed to multiclass with Monk (or possibly Ninja). After all what good is the ability to take Extra Ki as a Discovery when you don't even have a Ki Pool, let alone the various Unarmed Combat feats he has access to when all you are doing is d3 Improved unarmed combat..
The Archetype is pretty much there to be tacked on to someone Playing a Monk or Ninja.
But with VMC-Monk you could go full Alchemist with it. The lost feats aren't even a big deal since you get to use Discoveries to take the Feats you would most likely want to have. You get Real Unarmed damage, the Ki Pool and No need to worry about the Armor limits because I'm using Extracts for AC anyway
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Features granted are too unfocused and come online too late, resulting in characters feeling like they are just wasting feats for the half of the game they are likely to play, to get the effect they actually want in the half of the game they are unlikely to see. And even when they do get it, in many cases it is diluted or limited in some way to make it less useful.
I'd say this is mostly true, but actual multi-classing has the same problem.
Personally, I would have preferred if the VMC was just an actual feat chain that you could take at your own pace. So, my VMC could just as easily be my 1st,3rd,5th,7th and 9th level feats. And indivivdual VMC feats could have had a character level requirement to keep the VMC character from getting an ability before the true class can get it.
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Features granted are too unfocused and come online too late, resulting in characters feeling like they are just wasting feats for the half of the game they are likely to play, to get the effect they actually want in the half of the game they are unlikely to see. And even when they do get it, in many cases it is diluted or limited in some way to make it less useful.I'd say this is mostly true, but actual multi-classing has the same problem.
Personally, I would have preferred if the VMC was just an actual feat chain that you could take at your own pace. So, my VMC could just as easily be my 1st,3rd,5th,7th and 9th level feats. And indivivdual VMC feats could have had a character level requirement to keep the VMC character from getting an ability before the true class can get it.
The problem with that is that some of them are front-loaded. You could grab the first one and ignore the rest. As others have said - a feat for Bardic Knowledge is freakishly sweet, but past their second one they're weak. That was the balance factor.
This post sums up the problems perfectly IMO. Features granted are too unfocused and come online too late, resulting in characters feeling like they are just wasting feats for the half of the game they are likely to play, to get the effect they actually want in the half of the game they are unlikely to see. And even when they do get it, in many cases it is diluted or limited in some way to make it less useful.
You both are missing the crucial point. Arcane pool is a bab compensator? So, wanna try out how it work on someone who has already full BAB? Arcana may not be the defining class ability for a magus, but they are still stronger than feats, and for classes like fighter or bloodrager being able to pick them it's a big bonus.
Basically, the point is VMC x doesn't play like x, but that's doesn't mean that is not a mechanically strong option. To me personally, this is a double fail of the system. Ideally, thing like VMC shoul be plenty flavorfull but not straight up mechanically better than the alternative. Right now, VMC work just as a power amplifier.
The problem with that is that some of them are front-loaded. You could grab the first one and ignore the rest. As others have said - a feat for Bardic Knowledge is freakishly sweet, but past their second one they're weak. That was the balance factor.Features granted are too unfocused and come online too late, resulting in characters feeling like they are just wasting feats for the half of the game they are likely to play, to get the effect they actually want in the half of the game they are unlikely to see. And even when they do get it, in many cases it is diluted or limited in some way to make it less useful.I'd say this is mostly true, but actual multi-classing has the same problem.
Personally, I would have preferred if the VMC was just an actual feat chain that you could take at your own pace. So, my VMC could just as easily be my 1st,3rd,5th,7th and 9th level feats. And indivivdual VMC feats could have had a character level requirement to keep the VMC character from getting an ability before the true class can get it.
I'm not saying that the entire system could just be converted as is to free form feats. It's not as if you couldn't have designed VMCs around this though. The most obvious solution to your issue is limiting how high your VMC class level counts by how many of the feats you have taken.
kestral287, you missed something. VMC Magus' arcane pool is almost useless until you get a Wyroot weapon. That's because it NEVER refreshes naturally.
Magus[arcane pool]: "The pool refreshes once per day when the magus prepares his spells." Since the Unchained Rogue VMC Magus never has any spells to prepare, his pool never refreshes. He better hoard those pool points until his Wyroot weapon comes in. A class that prepares it's own spells might be able to refresh the pool but that's it.
Any answer on the variant multiclassing qualifying for feats that require class levels?
kestral287, that's the house-rule I'd most likely use too but there is no denying that, as written, it IS "broken and worthless". Prone shooter was designed to do something too but until it was fixed it didn't do anything either.
My reason for pointing it out is that is you use it, it technically doesn't work as/is. As such it's best to bring up that fact to you can put a house rule in place to MAKE it work.
Kalindlara, as I pointed out to kestral287, since it doesn't work out of the box, it requires a house-rule fix. it shouldn't be too hard to do but it still needs done.
As a side note, since I don't play PFS I had NO idea of it's legality there. I'll admit it was one of the reasons I thought there might be an issue.
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I feel reasonably certain that that's not how the VMC Magus's arcane pool is supposed to work. ^_^I'm pretty sure you're right, but as it stands that's what it says. The VMC Magus' arcane pool isn't called out as being any different from a normal Magus' arcane pool.
Honest question: do you think anyone would actually run it that way?
Since the VMC aren't PFS-legal, RAW isn't as much of a concern as usual. ^_^
Examples?It offers feat level abilities for the cost of feats. I don't really see how it could do more.You get way less than a feat for most of the abilities
alchemist, bombs aren't that great if you're not using int and you don't have that many, why do i get poison stuff as my high level abilities, i can only use my level bonus to identify the potion items...
fighter, no one cares about armor training so you spent 3 feats for +2 to damage and to-hit and later at level 19 5 feats for +4 to damage and to-hit.
druid is miles behind on the feats for animal companion curve and restricts you from wearing metal armor.
ranger, everything but favored enemy is not worth a feat and you don't even have instant enemy...
It looks to me like Wizard VMC Rogue could go Arcane Trickster without any loss of caster levels.
I'm not certain of the sequencing, would they be able to go Arcane Trickster at 11th since that is when they would pick up the 2d6 sneak attack, or would they have to wait until 12th level?
To be fair to the Fighter: three feats for Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization also grants +2 to hit and damage. Except that taking those three feats doesn't get you Armor Training too and doesn't allow you to use Gloves of Dueling.
Druid/Ranger/Alch do suck though.
which you could all have taken prior to 11th level. :/
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which you could all have taken prior to 11th level. :/To be fair to the Fighter: three feats for Weapon Focus, Greater Weapon Focus, and Weapon Specialization also grants +2 to hit and damage. Except that taking those three feats doesn't get you Armor Training too and doesn't allow you to use Gloves of Dueling.
Druid/Ranger/Alch do suck though.
Possibly. Probably not.
If you're a Swashbuckler, Warpriest, or Brawler, then yes. Otherwise no, you don't get access to two of those three feats at all (or you're a Kensai Magus, and can have those three at level 11).
Don't forget the Samurai. They don't get access to most fighter feats - but they do get the Weapon focus/specialization tree.
No one cares about Armor Training? More like - every dex combatant in the game (of which there are now quite a few varieties) sans most monks wishes that they had Armor Training. Primary dex combatants max out their armor's dex bonus pretty quickly.
Agree. While Armor training may not be that exciting, it's better than many feats. It's basically +1/+2 to AC and Dex skill checks, as long as your dexterity is high enough.
And if you rule that it also gives you this: "In addition, a fighter can also move at his normal speed while wearing medium armor. At 7th level, a fighter can move at his normal speed while wearing heavy armor." Then the armor training opens up equipment freedom. You can trade out that medium mithral armor for some other material. Or if you have the proficiency, you can wear mithral heavy armor without taking a movement penalty.
I would mostly like to know why are we getting CANTRIPS at level 11. I put that close to combat expertise. Someone explain this to me.
Otherwise VMC is a great..start. Some of the options are good, dynamic and make sense. Others fail miserably. I am a fan of Unchained but this needed a much larger section of the book (many things did though..) to make it work smoothly. However, more options, hey!
But why cantrips? Whyyyyyyyy?