I would like to see one or two archtypes that lose the eidolon but buff the summoned monster aspect; Maybe one giving them evolutions and one giving teamwork feats
The summoner would be a step closer to balanced if you took away the eidolon without buffing anything. But if you buff the summoning... well, you see how ridiculous the master summoner gets.
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The current summoner is basically a hybrid class. They have all the mechanics for summoning. And then have all the mechanics for monster master like Pokemon or Digimon.
The arcanist occultist handles the summoning class well enough, without having an eidolon. But we could use a good monster master class without all of the summoning baggage. I really think this is what the hunter should have been.
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There are DMs who - yes, they do exist - claim that the MONK is overpowered and ban those.
I can't help but feel this line alone invalidates claims that GMs banning stuff in home games is any indicator towards balance as an argument.
Amusement aside;
The vast bulk of [threads about summoners] never use the word audit, but that's what it comes out to when you look at people who brought up eidolon questions, we'd find out that they added their points wrong, or they used abilities without paying for pre-reqs. There were tons of building threads and many of them had audinting problems even if the word wasn't used.
Maybe I'm being over-cautious, but having seen no seconding of this claim after the first couple of pages makes me skeptical as to the truth of that statement.
Sure, those threads undeniably exist on the forums, but are they really the majority?Not attacking here, just making an open request for more verification.
Actual arguing;
It IS a complex class, perhaps the most complex class in the game.
Not really sure that could be stipulated when the wizard exists. Anecdotes aren't data but I've found it took a lot more legwork to explain the wizard to new players in the past few years than the summoner.
Really, I can't help but consider that a barrier to entry of complexity is a generally persistent part of some d20 systems. I just don't see how summoners are an especial case comparatively..
In general, however - a point does persist that whilst we are stipulating somewhat in the dark until we have the book, the reality exists that the posting of an updated concept (particularly if adopted in PFS) will be seen as a more legitimate baseline for running the rules at tables, home games or otherwise. Changing the design formula, or offering a revised one, does have an impact in the general perception of what is balanced.
An absurdist example, but were power attack to be reworded as 3.5 had it, it would be guaranteed that within a couple of months or so, people would insist pathfinder's current iteration was overpowered and broken and mad, that one should run nothing but the new one because the designers know what they're doing. Anyone complaining about the nerf is a filthy power gamer, so forth.
In the same sense, the summoner has options which can be called broken. So do plenty of other classes. This doesn't by necessity mean that they are entirely always bad.
Hence, one can't help but see a view, that the OP's expectation, is that is needs reigning in with some streamlined (see: Less options) design as taking the feedback of some bad examples to create a nerf.
What you see in the books is not approved as a PFS pre-gen. There isn't a Magus one either.
To be fair, the Magus is also the single token evil character that Paizo has as an iconic. As PFS disallows evil chars, it is likely that the rest of the stat block after "LE" is only icing on the cake of "no".
... 'twould be less cruel than a cake labeled "death"...
... but would it be a lie?
Though with the upcoming Aspis scenario for PaizoCon, it would be pretty freakin' cool if one of the pre-gens for that scenario was Seltyiel. Bonus points if there's an RP option in the scenario with one of the other standard PFS iconics ("Merisiel, Kyra is unconscious but alive. I have no interest in killing either of you today - it wouldn't be efficient, and I have high hopes that we can work together again the future. If you don't agree, I'll be disappointed, but understand. At least we'll always have that unintentional trip to the Shackles to remember each other by...)
-TimD
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I think the thing I would like to see the most would be the Summoner getting the opportunity to maybe apply some evolutions to his summons. This way, people will use the Summon Monster mechanic more, and it won't drop off in power that badly at higher levels. Plus it makes things more interesting if you have to decide every level how many points to give to your Eidolon and how many points you can leave open for your summoned monsters.
That way, we can still have a hyper-focused Eidolon if we wanted, but also choose to be a true "Master" Summoner that focuses on summoning. What do you guys think?
This way, people will use the Summon Monster mechanic more, and it won't drop off in power that badly at higher levels.
At what level are you seeing this? Are you comparing the single summons to eidolons of that level, because the real power of SM is in summoning multiples of one level lower.
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Ooh, trade away Summon Monster completely for bard music {inspire courage}maybe as an achetype?
Steven Universe Garnet is a Synthegist and she sings in one episode.
https://soundcloud.com/katerinu/stronger-than-you-feat-peridot
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This way, people will use the Summon Monster mechanic more, and it won't drop off in power that badly at higher levels.At what level are you seeing this? Are you comparing the single summons to eidolons of that level, because the real power of SM is in summoning multiples of one level lower.
Well, looking at their stat blocks, we have monsters with roughly +23 to attack at the highest level, with ACs less than 30. At this level,even medium BAB classes can assure hits on these creatures, and with the ludicrous amount of damage some classes can do, means that your summoned monsters are no longer capable tanks and beatsticks when it comes to combat roles.
That said, higher level monsters often make up for it with casting abilities and SLAs, but that is replacing power with versatility.
Note that I'm not suggesting that the Eidolon Evolution pool should be outright interchangeable from the SMX evolution pool (in fact something like the Magus and his Black Blade archetype might work). Perhaps something can be done where your pool takes on a penalty of twice the level of SMX spell you cast, but after that, you can buff the creature as you summon them (maybe extending the summon action to a full round!) with the evolutions you have access to.
Level 1: SM1 // 1 pt
Level 5: SM3 // 2 pt
Level 15: SM8 // 4 pt
Maybe at level 19 you can do the same for Gate, counting Gate as SM10, giving you 5 evolution points to add to whatever you Gate in.
That's a fairly conservative number, but would fit the Summoner's mythos as being the best at Summoning while not being ludicrously overpowered (because it would take a LOT of power from your Eidolon). It also helps keep the lower powered Summon Monster creatures more competitive with the higher powered ones, as they get more evolution points added to them (assuming the Summoner still gets to summon them).
Another possibility would be to use the evolution points to increase the amount of creatures summoned by the Summon Monster spell, or perhaps to add metamagic onto it, like Quicken or Maximize using the above system's evolution points to count towards the increased spell levels.
If summons went down in one hit, they'd still make good beat sticks because they are temporary. And you should be summoning 1d3+1 of them per standard action. If they start getting wiped out then they are also doing thier job and you can just summon more in the next round with another standard action.
While the eidolon is a little tougher, it is more prone to being permanently removed from the battlefield and costs more resources to get back into fighting shape. The eidolon usually seems to be needing some restoration spell. And always needs some healing at the end of the day.
I would like to see one or two archtypes that lose the eidolon but buff the summoned monster aspect; Maybe one giving them evolutions and one giving teamwork feats
Such as: Fusionist Idea that I had
I like the eidolon as is though and will be sad if they take away the customization that it offers.
Synthesist would be an easy enough fix with slowed evolution acquisition and stat bonuses instead of replacement.
That seems like something more easily achieved with a Druid, though, or a Wizard or Arcanist.
Eidolons are the main focus of the Summoner class.
Taking away the thing the class was built around would be such a radical change that, at that point, it might as well be an Alternate Class.
Which, now that I think about it, would probably be the best answer - make an Alternate Class of the Summoner that puts all the emphasis on the monster summoning effects, and take out the Eidolon entirely.
It has been done though. Deep Magic has a Summoner Archetype that ditches the Eidolon and replaces it with an ever growing stable of demons. You start with a handful of Dretch and then gain new more powerful demons as you gain levels. Up side - If one gets killed you simply spend a minute to call up a new one. Down side - if you get KOed or worse the demon becomes free and runs wild (and presumably makes certain you are well and truely dead)
I think the thing I would like to see the most would be the Summoner getting the opportunity to maybe apply some evolutions to his summons. This way, people will use the Summon Monster mechanic more, and it won't drop off in power that badly at higher levels. Plus it makes things more interesting if you have to decide every level how many points to give to your Eidolon and how many points you can leave open for your summoned monsters.
That way, we can still have a hyper-focused Eidolon if we wanted, but also choose to be a true "Master" Summoner that focuses on summoning. What do you guys think?
I think the summoning SLA is already too strong. Making it stronger is the wrong direction.
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There seem to be indications that Seltyiel might be losing his evil status due to successful reclamation by either Seelah or Kyra. At that point he may become a LN iconic.What you see in the books is not approved as a PFS pre-gen. There isn't a Magus one either.To be fair, the Magus is also the single token evil character that Paizo has as an iconic. As PFS disallows evil chars, it is likely that the rest of the stat block after "LE" is only icing on the cake of "no".
That would be incredibly disappointing (in that there would no longer be an evil iconic, not that char development = bad).
If you want to get your evil jollies in, I understand that next Gencon is going to have an event where you get to play Aspis characters.That would be incredibly disappointing (in that there would no longer be an evil iconic, not that char development = bad).There seem to be indications that Seltyiel might be losing his evil status due to successful reclamation by either Seelah or Kyra. At that point he may become a LN iconic.What you see in the books is not approved as a PFS pre-gen. There isn't a Magus one either.To be fair, the Magus is also the single token evil character that Paizo has as an iconic. As PFS disallows evil chars, it is likely that the rest of the stat block after "LE" is only icing on the cake of "no".
Aware of Aspis scenario (actually mentioned it in my original post), but that was not the point - on the other hand, I've already derailed this thread too much...
Anyhoos, yeah, Summoners... when the CEO says "fix this" guess it gets done (or maybe that was the Barbarian... can't recall, too much blood in my caffeine stream this morning)
-TimD
Why does the Barbarian need to be fixed? I'd say it's probably the best designed martial. Other classes should be buffed to his level, not the other way around.
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I've heard the barbarian is being changed because of math. You basically need two separate character sheets for rage. I'm not sure how the unchained may fix this. Maybe rage will do something other than change stats.
That said, if you have 7 things and one of those things is outperforming the other 6 then it would be much easier and less error prone to lower the one than to raise the other 6.
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Why does the Barbarian need to be fixed? I'd say it's probably the best designed martial. Other classes should be buffed to his level, not the other way around.
There's a panel at gencon last year where the rules team talked about how their goal with the Barbarian is decreasing the amount of math you have to do whenever you go into rage.
Two examples they gave of potential changes
- Instead of getting a +4 to swim, you'll get a swim speed.
- Instead of getting hit points based on your constitution, you'll just get actual temporary hit points (that go away first, not last).
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I'm actually a bit concerned now. I would like to see an official rebalancing (i.e. nerf) of the summoner and a more easy to understand eidolon building system would be fine too, but if it is at the expense of the creative freedom that you had with the eidolon so far. For me that would make it an entirely different class. At least it would remove the very reason why the summoner is my favourite class.
I hope for two things from the new Summoner:
1) That it will have more player options, not less, when compared to the previous summoner class.
2) That it will remain compatible with previously published summoner feats and archetypes.
Static monster choices sound like it will severely reduce the available options to me. If that is the case, I will be sticking to the original. Never seemed overpowered to me anyways.
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Huh, I just realized that 2 years ago at PaizoCon, when asked what was the #1 thing they'd like to do if they got to re-do something in PF, Jason Bulmahn answered "Oh god, re-doing the monk would be my top thing." to which Stephen agreed enthusiastically, and Sean just grinned.
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Why does the Barbarian need to be fixed? I'd say it's probably the best designed martial. Other classes should be buffed to his level, not the other way around.There's a panel at gencon last year where the rules team talked about how their goal with the Barbarian is decreasing the amount of math you have to do whenever you go into rage.
Two examples they gave of potential changes
- Instead of getting a +4 to swim, you'll get a swim speed.
- Instead of getting hit points based on your constitution, you'll just get actual temporary hit points (that go away first, not last).
But...But... I like math... :(
Also, giving a swim speed should be something open to anybody over a certain amount of swim skill, rather than just a rage buff, IMO. Same thing with a Climb speed. And Acrobatics should be able to sub out for fly at high enough amounts (Monks should eventually be able to jump on air, IMHO).
I just feel skills should actually be able to compete with mid level spells. That'll fix a lot of weaker classes, I think.
If there going to change the summoner then...
-I am fine with them nerfing the Eidolon... somewhat.
-I am fine with them changing the spell list.
-I want the summoning ability to go unchanged.
-I hope the new Eidolon gets the immunities/resistances of whatever creature subtype it is based.
-I hope they include Aeon, Protean, Inevitable, etc. as well as celestials and fiends with the new Eidolon.
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I would play a Summoner that went without the summon SLA completely.
I'd rather have one that could build multiple eidolons, say one per every four levels, but only have one out at a time.
...I think my Final Fantasy is showing. :P
I love the summon ability.
I'd love a singular bound creature.
I love the current summoner.
... huh, I find it hard to guess anything that would make me unhappy here.
(Though I do like me some Final Fantasy...)
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This is just a rambling wish list.
I've mentioned it in other posts, yet I would like to see a scalable Eidolon. If the party is made with a 15 point stat array, it should be weaker than one in a campaign where PCs are made with a 25 point buy.
I would also like to see Eidolon options added for non-combat oriented Eidolons. NPC Summoners might actually prefer a skill monkey or diplomatic Eidolon rather than a combat machine.
Some GMs might actually wish their players made non-combat Eidolons as well.
In here they talk about the unchained summoner.
I'd be shocked if old summoners didn't get grandfathered in. But the PFS leadership has such a low view of summoners, I expect them to only allow the new one for new characters.
And I imagine a lot of DMs feel the same way. If any class is banned from a home game, it's usually either the summoner or the gunslinger.
In here they talk about the unchained summoner.
It sounds like they're taking the Base Form idea and it's limits on what Evolutions it can take(only Quadrapeds can take Pounce for example) and replacing it with Outsider Types. Might still be customizable while making each Summoner quite different.
If this will be how they wanted the Summoner to be, why didn't they do it that way in the first place?
Also, what category of outsider does the Balthazar's super chicken fall into?
This is just a rambling wish list.
I've mentioned it in other posts, yet I would like to see a scalable Eidolon. If the party is made with a 15 point stat array, it should be weaker than one in a campaign where PCs are made with a 25 point buy.
Why? Animal companions don't nerf themselves based upon their master's stat arrays.
If this will be how they wanted the Summoner to be, why didn't they do it that way in the first place?
Also, what category of outsider does the Balthazar's super chicken fall into?
It's one particular Paizo employee's vision of what they wanted it to be.
Balazar isn't changing.
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If this will be how they wanted the Summoner to be, why didn't they do it that way in the first place?
Also, what category of outsider does the Balthazar's super chicken fall into?
Because sometimes the original developers' intentions don't pan out to the final product.
Case in point - the Alchemist, which was initially a bit different than what it came out to be (whether this is for good or bad is up to the person using it; personally, I think the Alchemist is pretty spiffy).
It sounds like Jason Burhman's original image of the Summoner was more along the lines of King Solomon or Johann Faust: Able to summon Outsiders like Devils, Demons, Angels, Elementals, Great Old Ones, etc.
The final result, however, for whatever reasons (I didn't follow the playtest, and it may have changed before then), had the Summoner end up being less focused on one particular TYPE of Outsider (since more and more types of Outsiders come out all the time - Asuras, Rakshasas, Angels, Aeons, Archons, Divs, Devils, Demons, Daemons, Demodands, Inevitables, Proteans... maybe this was the reasoning behind it), and instead focused on choosing one of several recognizable forms in the animal kingdom, since Outsiders generally follow one of those forms anyway; ostensibly, anyway, since it seems like 99% of all Eidolons instead end up looking like some Lovecraftian Horror that you'd only encounter by downing a gallon of Peote after a watching a marathon of Studio Gainax productions and some seriously disturbing hentai.
I think that simply getting rid of the size-changing evolutions is gonna solve half the problem. The other half is the spell list.
I think that simply getting rid of the size-changing evolutions is gonna solve half the problem. The other half is the spell list.
Pounce at level 1.
I don't mind large being an option but huge size was a bad idea. I also didn't like that you couldn't make a creature who focused on spell like abilities and/or energy blast. Also there should have been better options for small size eidolons as well.
I think that simply getting rid of the size-changing evolutions is gonna solve half the problem. The other half is the spell list.Pounce at level 1.
Except Hunters and Druids can get Big Cats at level 1, too, and they have Pounce, also.
I don't think Pounce at level 1 is the big problem here.
I think that simply getting rid of the size-changing evolutions is gonna solve half the problem. The other half is the spell list.Pounce at level 1.Except Hunters and Druids can get Big Cats at level 1, too, and they have Pounce, also.
I don't think Pounce at level 1 is the big problem here.
Big cats have a fixed set of abilities. And animal companions, even a hunter's are not nearly as powerful as an eidolon build for it.
And there is no synthesist hunter.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think that simply getting rid of the size-changing evolutions is gonna solve half the problem. The other half is the spell list.Pounce at level 1.Except Hunters and Druids can get Big Cats at level 1, too, and they have Pounce, also.
I don't think Pounce at level 1 is the big problem here.
Big cats have a fixed set of abilities. And animal companions, even a hunter's are not nearly as powerful as an eidolon build for it.
And there is no synthesist hunter.
Of course they're not as powerful as the eidolon. The eidolon is supposed to be stronger than animal companions. That's the entire point of the class. It's supposed to be a good caster with an awesome pet, compared to the Druid's awesome caster with a good pet.
The problem with the summoner is that with all the discounted spells it gets the summoner is pretty much a 9th level caster. A 9th level arcane spellcaster that has a built-in specialization conjuration; the best spellcasting school in the game, giving it a very high optimization floor.
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I think that simply getting rid of the size-changing evolutions is gonna solve half the problem. The other half is the spell list.Pounce at level 1.Except Hunters and Druids can get Big Cats at level 1, too, and they have Pounce, also.
I don't think Pounce at level 1 is the big problem here.
Cat, Big (Lion, Tiger)
Starting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 40 ft.; AC +1 natural armor; Attack bite (1d6), 2 claws (1d4); Ability Scores Str 13, Dex 17, Con 13, Int 2, Wis 15, Cha 10; Special Attacks rake (1d4); Special Qualities low-light vision, scent.7th-Level Advancement: Size Large; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8), 2 claws (1d6); Ability Scores Str +8, Dex –2, Con +4; Special Attacks grab, pounce, rake (1d6) .
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My eidolon wants to know how you became a rogue. She has been looking in vain for a way to gain class levels instead of or in addition to racial hit dice.No one from Paizo has stated that. In fact, as a rogue eidolon myself, if evolutions no longer existed and you were unable to customize your eidolon at all beyond selecting from a menu of a few choices, I would be pretty shocked at this point. I know this is just one post, though, and the common wisdom on the internet holds the opposite view, but I would urge you to consider that I am pretty likely to be correct, as a rogue eidolon.Has Paizo actually revealed any details about the new Summoner, or is the idea that they're limiting the eidolon to a menu of a few choices purely conjecture?
By the way, I know it's totally off the subject now, but, despite my earlier quip, the term "Rogue Eidolon" actually comes from the Monster Manual II in the old 3rd Edition era (I've never heard of it existing prior). It's a really interesting monster idea, that I always felt was under-CR'd (not that the CR assignment was wrong, but that it was created as a CR that was too low for what it was supposed to be).
That's right: Mark Seifter is, secretly, a purple statue of an ancient dark god invested with a spark of divinity by said god come to independent life and driven insane who slaughtered all of his worshipers! With a rune on his forehead! Who is chaotic neutral!
... huh. I wonder if that's where summoner eidolons come from... /conspiracy theory
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My eidolon wants to know how you became a rogue. She has been looking in vain for a way to gain class levels instead of or in addition to racial hit dice.No one from Paizo has stated that. In fact, as a rogue eidolon myself, if evolutions no longer existed and you were unable to customize your eidolon at all beyond selecting from a menu of a few choices, I would be pretty shocked at this point. I know this is just one post, though, and the common wisdom on the internet holds the opposite view, but I would urge you to consider that I am pretty likely to be correct, as a rogue eidolon.Has Paizo actually revealed any details about the new Summoner, or is the idea that they're limiting the eidolon to a menu of a few choices purely conjecture?
By the way, I know it's totally off the subject now, but, despite my earlier quip, the term "Rogue Eidolon" actually comes from the Monster Manual II in the old 3rd Edition era (I've never heard of it existing prior). It's a really interesting monster idea, that I always felt was under-CR'd (not that the CR assignment was wrong, but that it was created as a CR that was too low for what it was supposed to be).
That's right: Mark Seifter is, secretly, a purple statue of an ancient dark god invested with a spark of divinity by said god come to independent life and driven insane who slaughtered all of his worshipers! With a rune on his forehead! Who is chaotic neutral!
... huh. I wonder if that's where summoner eidolons come from... /conspiracy theory
New fun fact, that creature was created by James Jacobs. Also, the name rogue eidolon is a pun between that monster and the Ghostwalk setting, which actually had an eidolon class for ghosts, so you could actually multiclass rogue and eidolon.
ghost... being incorporeal spirits... longing for flesh... CONSPIRACY CONFIRMED?!?