Can you make a Crossbow Stealther?


Advice

The Exchange

Hey all,

So I've been pondering for a while on playing a Halfling character with the -10 penalty (instead of -20) alternate racial trait to snipe while stealthed. This has led me to want to play a high Dex, low Str stealth class in PFS and make it work decently.

So my question is, "How do you make a Crossbow user work the best in PFS?"

Originally I considered the Farstrike Monk as they reduce the sniping penalty an additional -10, to a 0 penalty...but the issue with thrown weapons is once you throw them you no longer have them to throw again. Also, the other two problems are that thrown weapons generally aren't far range (10-40ft generally) and if the weapon returns (Returning enchantment) then you get it back at the end of turn which means you can't flurry with it, leaving you with common mundane weapons to throw during a flurry or a very expensive wardrobe of weapons.

So, I decided Xbow would probably be the option that would fit best but I didn't know what class would work better. Some classes that come to mind that would work well - Xbow Fighter archetype, Sohei Monk, Inquisitor, and Ranger.

What class would work best? I would want to stealth and snipe during combat so that would be my primary focus. Class and build suggestions please?


At least 5 levels of Bolt Ace archetype for gunslinger (ACG). Also, once the ACG errata comes out, Slayer has a sniper variant that won't be absolutely terrible.

Sohei is pretty great tho. Multiclass Sohei/Bolt ace sounds good, has some nice stat synergy as well.

BTW, for the thrower you can use shuriken (which is ammo), or possibly dip into card caster/cartomancer to throw cards. The range increment is crappy on those tho, so you are better off with a crossbow, (or getting a blinkback belt).

Scarab Sages

I think I need to know a few things first, so that we can get the optimum fun for you whether or not its super optimized for DPR.

The first question I have for you is this, "Why do you want to snipe?"

That is are you expecting a mechanical benefit or do you just want to be stealthy for your character concept. I ask this, because most people use sniping to catch enemies flat-footed so they can sneak attack. As such there are only a few classes that really benefit a lot from the sniping.

The second question, "How married are you to the crossbow?"

Sadly crossbows aren't as awesome in Pathfinder as they are in real life. Archery with bows on the other hand tends to be one of the deadliest combat styles around.

The third and often most underlooked question, "What do you want to do when you're not shooting things?"

Does your character bring any out of combat skills to the party? are you a sneaky fellow who disable traps, pick locks? are you a master hunter who lies in wait for his prey, knowledgeable about many creatures? Do you protect the innocent, prowl the night?

The Exchange

B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

I think I need to know a few things first, so that we can get the optimum fun for you whether or not its super optimized for DPR.

The first question I have for you is this, "Why do you want to snipe?"

That is are you expecting a mechanical benefit or do you just want to be stealthy for your character concept. I ask this, because most people use sniping to catch enemies flat-footed so they can sneak attack. As such there are only a few classes that really benefit a lot from the sniping.

The second question, "How married are you to the crossbow?"

Sadly crossbows aren't as awesome in Pathfinder as they are in real life. Archery with bows on the other hand tends to be one of the deadliest combat styles around.

The third and often most underlooked question, "What do you want to do when you're not shooting things?"

Does your character bring any out of combat skills to the party? are you a sneaky fellow who disable traps, pick locks? are you a master hunter who lies in wait for his prey, knowledgeable about many creatures? Do you protect the innocent, prowl the night?

1) Why do you want to Snipe? I play in PFS, but I thought it would be interesting to be at a 30-160ft range and pepper enemies without them knowing where the damage is coming from. Allowing me to continue shooting while the enemy is clueless where I'm at. I understand this isn't the most optimal approach in PFS though.

2) How married are you to the crossbow? Well, I want high stealth and most classes end up spreading a 20pt stat buy a little thin. I figured going Xbow would allow me to dump Str and focus on Dex more. I absolutely do not want to be a Zen Archer.

3) What do you want to do when you're not shooting things? Initially I thought I'd go with a Trapsmith Rogue or a Trapper Ranger to find traps and disable mechanical/magical traps or unlock things even though there's not a ton of traps in PFS. Not always someone around that can do that so at least I'd have that covered as a side.

I would say the feeling I want out of the character is a Stalker. I was initially debating on an Elf with the alt racial trait to Stealth while Running at a -20 penalty (which is impossible normally) or a Halfling that has only a -10 penalty to staying hidden at range and Sniping.

I'm pretty open on ideas but I'm not so sure on the Gunslinger options.


The Bolt Ace is a gunslinger using crossbows. Their deeds are nice, but the main deal is Crossbow training, which lets you add your DEX to the damage you do with a crossbow, as well as improve the critical multiplier. This stacks with bracers of falcon aim for a 19-20/x4 critical profile (or 17-20/x3 with improved critical, take your pick).

Once you got the 5 levels, you are free to leave the class. Slayer/Ranger/Inquisitor or anything with nice boosts works, really.


The Sniper Slayer is the best you'll get for this... I don't remember how, though. There was an errata for the archetype that replaced Deadly Range with something more useful for 1-shot-1-kill sniping but my search-fu is too weak to find it.

Don't get your hopes up, I don't think it was something that made the build actually viable.

The Exchange

Arachnofiend wrote:

The Sniper Slayer is the best you'll get for this... I don't remember how, though. There was an errata for the archetype that replaced Deadly Range with something more useful for 1-shot-1-kill sniping but my search-fu is too weak to find it.

Don't get your hopes up, I don't think it was something that made the build actually viable.

You mean this? Slayer errata for ACG

The Ranged Tactics Toolbox has the Sniping (normal +5 competence bonus to Stealth 1,875gp, improved +10 7,500gp, greater +15 16,875gp) enchantment for Sniping while Stealthed.

It also contains "Assassin's Sight" which for 5k allows you to set your Xbow from 0-30ft SA range to 30-60ft SA range. Allowing you to Sneak Attack anything within that range increment that you set your Assassin's Sight to. There's also a Greater Assassin's Sight which has 3 ranges (0-30, 30-60, 60-90) and gives a +4 competence bonus on attack rolls to confirm crit hits within the set range. Both of these Sights can only be mounted to the stock of a light or heavy Xbow.

All the above is legal for PFS.

EDIT: So the Sniper Slayer gets a bonus equal to their level in damage on the first attack that the enemy is unaware of them. He also gets the ability to SA within his 1st range increment, which is a tad better than the Assassin's Sight that takes a full-round action to adjust the range increment it's set to, or a standard action for the Greater Assassin's Sight. Not sure I'm sold on the Slayer, maybe someone can persuade me further?

Scarab Sages

I believe it's this one Three ACG Errata You Didn't FAQ

Scarab Sages

I think it's unwise to dump strength, you'll want to be able to wear your armor and carry your ammo. Even if you keep your strength at 10, The longbow is the superior weapon, because reloading the bow is a free action. It requires a feat (rapid reload) to do that with a light crossbow.

I think slayer is the way to go:
If you want to do trapfinding early on the base class is probably best, but if you want to be a better sniper. But based on the unpublished errata I linked above the Sniper archetype would be better. Though from the reading of it, once you've shot one creature during an encounter it will be useless.

At level 6, the improved precise shot feat from your ranger combat style (archery or crossbow) is probably non-negotiable. The ability to take this at a low level makes rangers, slayers, and zen archers the best archers. Basically, if you can see it you can shoot it without penalty.

I think you're wanting go with this no matter what you do. No need for concealment or cover to make your stealth check.Hellcat Stealth

Scarab Sages

Oh and don't forget to check out the Shadow, Improved Shadow, and Greater Shadow Armor Enchantments.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateMagic/spells/shadowWeapon.html


Crossbow has longer range (and range increments), which could be important for sniping. It also has a superior crit profile (again, important for sniping if you want to 360noscope).

The Exchange

Well, I could take the Half-Elf race and take the Alt racial trait "Arcane Training" to use Wizard wands without a UMD check. And also take Elven Spirit at 1st level as a feat to pickup "Silent Hunter" alt racial trait (reduce Stealth penalty by 5 when moving full speed and able to run while stealthed at -20 penalty). It would grant me access to use Gravity Bow and Reduce Person without having to multiclass. I'd be able to pickup Skill Focus: Stealth with Half-Elf also. I'd be a bit behind on the stealth check compared to a Halfling though.

Not sure if Gravity Bow and some of the other Wizard Spells would be worth it to go Half-Elf over Halfling.

EDIT: I did forget that Slayer can pickup Ranger Combat Styles so that would be perfect to take the Xbow Combat Style via Slayer Talents.

The Exchange

I don't really see Stealthing while Running as useful in PFS but it sounds fun. Would it be worth it to go Half-Elf to gain access to using wands and scrolls on a Wizard spell list without a UMD check? Taking the Elven Spirit feat at 1st level doesn't really put me behind because I'd be picking up Skill Focus: Stealth anyways to gain Hellcat Stealth later.

Halfling - able to snipe and stealth much better.
Half-Elf - able to use Wizard scrolls & spells, able to stealth while running.


An important thing to note is that sniping requires a standard action on its own. Which means you cannot take a full attack action or full-round action.

So no flurry sniping or full attack sniping.

This generally means a very low damage output because you're only making one attack a round. For this to work you need a way to add lots of damage onto one attack. Except everyone else will still consistently and easily out damage you.


B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:
Sadly crossbows aren't as awesome in Pathfinder as they are in real life.

In all fairness, crossbows are not very awesome in real life either. They pretty much remain the unskilled man's version of the longbow.

Which is why they rose in the first place. It takes years to properly train a longbowman, but you can teach somebody to point and click a crossbow in a couple of weeks at most.

Even historically, you only got a crossbowman when you couldn't afford a real archer.


Well, I didn't want to say, since instead of being stealthy they are more explode-y, but alchemist snipers can get pretty crazy. You can forego levels in any other class then, it's based around making the most out of a single shot by stacking up alchemical items and bombs with the grenadier archetype, conductive weapon, etc.

You also save a lot on feats, since Explosive missile loads the weapon for you. You can also have discoveries like Chameleon boost your stealth, as well as potions of greater invisibility. It's incredibly well suited for sniping.


Since this isn't a rules question, flagged for move to the Advice board.


If your not really worried about sneak attack and choose to go gunslinger, I would recommend looking at the vital strike tree depending on deed choices. It's not as many dice as sneak attack but it allows you to use a higher damage and rehide round by round at any distance your comfortably hitting at.

The Exchange

How about 8 levels of Bolt Ace Gunslinger & 3 levels of vanilla Slayer? Or would it be better if I just went 5 Gunslinger and 6 Slayer? The Sniper archetype doesnt seem to really bring anything that I couldn't do with the Assassin Scope.

Full BAB between Gunslinger and Slayer.

Thinking that may work well. I could use Gravity bow to deal 2d6, 19-20 x3 crit. Take Improved Critical at 9th level, get Holy enchantment on the xbow and do something like.

2d6+9 + 2d6holy + 1d6 or 3d6 sneak attack on surprise round, 17-20 x3

A full round attack would be something like 2d6+9 + 2d6holy / 2d6+9 + 2d6holy / 2d6+9 + 2d6holy / 2d6+9 + 2d6holy at 11th level. That's based on having a +1 Holy Xbow with a 24dex and including Point-Blank Shot. Which would come out to 16d6+36dmg (with 17-20, x3 crit) on a full attack, not including any Sneak Attack damage.

Would 5 or 8 levels of Bolt Ace and rest Inquisitor be a better choice? They both would rely on Dex and Wis so that may work well?


There are only two ways I've seen crossbows feel effective
Vital strike with a double crossbow and a large or larger weapon

or Martial versatility with the corsair fighter's pirate weapons group (Crossbow, Dagger, Hook hand, Longsword, Rapier, cutlass)

even with bolt ace the xbow leaves much to be desired


Oh there's the third way too with a splash weapon launching crossbow rogue... but that's really expensive

Sovereign Court

Bolt Ace isn't top tier - but it's certainly viable. More than good enough for PFS. (so long as you avoid Bonekeep :P)

Keeping your teammates from rushing forward and ruining half the point of the sniping portion of the build? Much less viable. :P

Oh - and strength dumping won't hurt that much. With that high of a dex - your armor will be light. Eventually you might consider Celestial Chain. (Though not till you're nearing the end of the PFS career - so it might not be worth trading up from a mithril breastplate.) And your touch AC will be decent for dealing with shadows etc. If you think that carry capacity might be an issue - take the Muscle of the Society trait. (+2 strength for carry capacity)

As a halfling 6-7 should be plenty high. (I'm not sure I'd dump it down to 5. Though I have a gnome sorceror with a 5 - so I'm not sure if I can talk.)


The question is, why crossbow? Every single build that you can do with a crossbow, barring bolt ace, can be done with a longbow. The only place the crossbow outshines the longbow is vital strike or sneak attack with a scope....

But even there you might as well use a firearm, it takes less effort to use a firearm for the same purpose.

it's not about being optimal, its about not overly nerfing yourself. Again I've seen some good fringe builds, but they require a lot of feats to get started and generally aren't PFS legal.

On a side note, a dwarf can take the cleave feat line and snapshot line to make all of his secondary attacks against targets within 15 feat of his crossbow.

It's only good with a launching crossbow though.... And a dwarf with the orc bloodline can use surprise followthrough to make them all flatfooted.

That's a lot of feats though...
Power attack
cleave
great cleave
Goblin Cleaver
Orc Hewer
Surprise followthrough
improved surprise follow through

Rapid shot
Point blank shot
rapid reload
EWP Launching xbow

Even with the following build
Gendarm cavalier 1 (Power attack)
Corsair fighter 2 (EWP xbow, Cleave)
far shot monk 2 (Rapid shot, quick draw, Point blank shot)
then your three feats from CL 5 would be Rapid reload, Goblin Cleaver, Orc Hewer.

You still need Snapshot, weapon focus, Great Cleave, Improved Snapshot, Surprise followthrough, and Improved surprise followthrough.

You can get both surprise followthrough as a rogue (Skulking slayer), which stacks with the underground chemist... you can grab at leas one of these feats through combat trick, maybe weapon focus is a rogue talent too?

It'd still be a lot, but if you crank up alchemy and use splash weapons you'll deal a lot of damage


Dustyboy wrote:
But even there you might as well use a firearm, it takes less effort to use a firearm for the same purpose.

Some people just don't want to use guns.


River Shadowhand wrote:


So I've been pondering for a while on playing a Halfling character with the -10 penalty (instead of -20) alternate racial trait to snipe while stealthed. This has led me to want to play a high Dex, low Str stealth class in PFS and make it work decently.

Look at the Far Strike Monk. At 3rd level, you get Invisible Blade that makes sniping stealth checks a -10 instead of -20. Combined with the Halfling ability Swift as Shadows that reduces sniping penalties by 10, and you get 0 minuses to sniping. ;)

The Exchange

graystone wrote:
River Shadowhand wrote:


So I've been pondering for a while on playing a Halfling character with the -10 penalty (instead of -20) alternate racial trait to snipe while stealthed. This has led me to want to play a high Dex, low Str stealth class in PFS and make it work decently.
Look at the Far Strike Monk. At 3rd level, you get Invisible Blade that makes sniping stealth checks a -10 instead of -20. Combined with the Halfling ability Swift as Shadows that reduces sniping penalties by 10, and you get 0 minuses to sniping. ;)

Yeah, I know. Except I'm stuck with thrown weapons which means I throw a bunch of mundane cheap weapons or I throw 2 weapons total with the returning property since any after that would drop at my feet when they return. Throwing weapons are pretty subpar in general and I already have a rope dart Far Strike Monk.


River Shadowhand wrote:
graystone wrote:
River Shadowhand wrote:


So I've been pondering for a while on playing a Halfling character with the -10 penalty (instead of -20) alternate racial trait to snipe while stealthed. This has led me to want to play a high Dex, low Str stealth class in PFS and make it work decently.
Look at the Far Strike Monk. At 3rd level, you get Invisible Blade that makes sniping stealth checks a -10 instead of -20. Combined with the Halfling ability Swift as Shadows that reduces sniping penalties by 10, and you get 0 minuses to sniping. ;)
Yeah, I know. Except I'm stuck with thrown weapons which means I throw a bunch of mundane cheap weapons or I throw 2 weapons total with the returning property since any after that would drop at my feet when they return. Throwing weapons are pretty subpar in general and I already have a rope dart Far Strike Monk.

Why are you stuck with thrown weapons? You can take a crossbow oriented class + 3 levels of monk. You gain 2 ranged feats, the sniping buff, an unarmed attack and good saves and only lose 1 BAB. No flurry? No big deal IMO.

The Exchange

graystone wrote:
River Shadowhand wrote:
graystone wrote:
River Shadowhand wrote:


So I've been pondering for a while on playing a Halfling character with the -10 penalty (instead of -20) alternate racial trait to snipe while stealthed. This has led me to want to play a high Dex, low Str stealth class in PFS and make it work decently.
Look at the Far Strike Monk. At 3rd level, you get Invisible Blade that makes sniping stealth checks a -10 instead of -20. Combined with the Halfling ability Swift as Shadows that reduces sniping penalties by 10, and you get 0 minuses to sniping. ;)
Yeah, I know. Except I'm stuck with thrown weapons which means I throw a bunch of mundane cheap weapons or I throw 2 weapons total with the returning property since any after that would drop at my feet when they return. Throwing weapons are pretty subpar in general and I already have a rope dart Far Strike Monk.
Why are you stuck with thrown weapons? You can take a crossbow oriented class + 3 levels of monk. You gain 2 ranged feats, the sniping buff, an unarmed attack and good saves and only lose 1 BAB. No flurry? No big deal IMO.

True, good thinking. I'll have to see what I can come up with on that.

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