I was reading this thread about generating loot based on CR. The point was raised about if the PCs say jumped a 20th level fighter in the middle of a bath in the river they might find some extraordinary way of pulling off a win.
Regardless of that interesting image, his does raises a thought. Would a 20th level fighter with no gear still be a CR20 fight? I'm just wondering how much the gear contributes to the CR. Would the effective CR level be lower in the absence of gear? It would still be a powerful fighter because of abilities and such.
Now that I'm thinking about it might vary depending on what you are fighting, because a something like a Tarrasque doesn't benefit much from any gear it might have.
You could try pitting a 20th level fighting with 200gp in gear against a 10th level wizard with 200hp in gear and see what happens. :)
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I was reading this thread about generating loot based on CR. The point was raised about if the PCs say jumped a 20th level fighter in the middle of a bath in the river they might find some extraordinary way of pulling off a win.
Regardless of that interesting image, his does raises a thought. Would a 20th level fighter with no gear still be a CR20 fight? I'm just wondering how much the gear contributes to the CR. Would the effective CR level be lower in the absence of gear? It would still be a powerful fighter because of abilities and such.
Now that I'm thinking about it might vary depending on what you are fighting, because a something like a Tarrasque doesn't benefit much from any gear it might have.
Firstly, NPCs get NPC wealth/treasure based on their CR according to the Bestiary. This keeps their treasure values and strength appropriate for a creature of their CRs. However, giving an NPC PC-wealth for its CR results in a net +1 CR afterwords.
As to a 20th level Fighter, it's an XP/loot pinata that can frequently be cracked open by a party half its level, before they strip themselves naked and roll around in the experience points and treasure in an orgy of murderhobo bliss.
No it wouldn't still be a CR 20 fight. An opponent with class level has a CR equal to their level if they have PC wealth, level -1 with NPC wealth. This shows here that wealth is for sure a determinant to CR.
Lets see that lv20 fighter with no gear.
His str is 25 or less instead of 31 so a -3 to hit and -3/5 to damage.
his con is like 16 or less instead of 22 so a -60 hp.
His AC is 10+unboosted dex so lets be nice as say 12.
Even if we're nice and say he has IUS and his main weapon training is close. that's a + 4 to hit and damage.
Armor training is useless.
His feats are mostly useless as he's not using his chosen weapon.
So his attack is +31 for 1d3+11.
opposed to full gear for +50 or higher and 1d6+20 or higher.
His AC is ~12 opposed to 40 or higher.
His will save is low with no gear to help that. So it'll be about an 8.
Yeah, that is not a hard fight.
But there are some classes that better with no gear than others.
Monk or monkish class, spellcasters, spellcasters, and spellcasters.
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Gearless druids are hilarious.
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1. There's no chance they'd sneak up on him. His perception is too high.
2. High level characters are all paranoid mo-fos. (that's how they survived to get to high level) He'd at least have on rings/amulet etc. Heck - by level 4 all my heavy armor character have back-up light armor for sleeping in. And a weapon or fifteen would all be within easy reach, if not somehow magically summonable.
3. They example in the linked thread wasn't meant to be taken seriously - it was instead an extreme example to make his point about CR treasure.
Hey, you're dead wrong. I benefit immensely from my gear!!!
There is no hard-and-fast rule or forumla for adjusting CR based on increases or decreases in gear. It's really up to the individual GM to make a judgment call.
An ogre is a decent encounter a group of 2nd level characters, but give that ogre a Necklace of Fireballs and he can wipe out the party - but if they surprise him and take him out before he uses it, now the party has a Necklace of Fireballs...
A 20th level fighter is assumed to have a decent amount of gear. 123,000 gp according to the SRD. That's about 1/7 of what a PC should have (seems a little weak to me, but then again, when the PCs kill him they shouldn't get a million GP worth of loot or it will break their own WBL values). That amount of wealth could be a +5 weapon and a few additional +3 or +4 items like armor, cloak of resistance, natural armor, etc. Or a few nice tricks to make him more dangerous like boots of speed or a quickrunner's shirt or an item to give him flying or displacement or other fun tricks.
Take that away from him, and he's obviously much less dangerous, but how much?
I would say that any NPC below half his expected wealth should get a -1 or even -2 to his CR. Totally naked might be worth a -5 or -6. Then again, this is a much bigger problem for martial characters than it is for spellcasters (unless the missing gear includes all their spell components which might leave them VERY underpowered) or for martial characters who don't need as much gear (such as a monk).
But ultimately it's all circumstantial.
Yeah just an interesting thought experiment.
It does showcase the benefit of having access to magic. Because a CR20 fighter with no gear is completely different than a CR20 dragon with no gear.
@Charon this thread (like most that I post) isnt meant to be taken seriously.
Also this works in reverse for APL. If the party is under the gold values then they aren't at full APL. I've seen GM's who don't understand this and then didn't understand why the fights were super brutal.
The answer to this question depends on who has the gear.
For martials? It's easily 1/3 to 1/2 of their CR. The loss of AC, stats, weapons, saves and everything else is lethal.
For spellcasters who have buffed ahead of time? Not so much. 'No gear' doesn't stop a Contingency from whisking the wizard away, or prevent the Druid from WIldshaping into a water elemental and losing himself in the water, and suchlike.
So, highly variable. But yeah, a F/20 with no gear? Even with some inherent stat raises, he's going to die fast. All he's got is a bunch of hit points, and a level 10 party can chew through those very quickly. His Will save is probably no better then a wizard/10, so he's likely to lose any Will SOD's, too.
His best chance is going to be disarming someone, taking their weapon, and hopefully using his high BAB and multiple attacks to rapidly thin out the opposition. But since he'll likely be dead in 1-2 rounds, that's probably not going to happen, and he likely can't avoid the AoO on the disarm unless he's got Improved Disarm.
A better question might be: A f/20 is bathing. How does he survive an attack by a 10th level party?
==Aelryinth
I think this is why I like sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell so much; they aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers and can be an amazing threat to their enemies even when captured, bound, gagged and stripped naked.
@Aelryinth take might be an amusing question to spin from this thread, especially since this thread is a spin off from another thread.
Yes the loss of his weapon really debilitates him, more so I think than anything else. Even with armor he just takes longer to hit and then die.
I think this is why I like sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell so much; they aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers and can be an amazing threat to their enemies even when captured, bound, gagged and stripped naked.
Some of their spells would still require foci. Can't read magic without the foci normally found in the Spell Component Pouch.
I think this is why I like sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell so much; they aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers and can be an amazing threat to their enemies even when captured, bound, gagged and stripped naked.
That just means that a sensible enemy will kill them rather than trying to take them alive.
I think this is why I like sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell so much; they aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers and can be an amazing threat to their enemies even when captured, bound, gagged and stripped naked.That just means that a sensible enemy will kill them rather than trying to take them alive.
Assuming they are even recognized as a sorcerer. Can't speak for others, but my characters were generally very charismatic and deceptive. Even something as simple as carrying a captured spellbook and a spell component pouch could easily lead the unaware into thinking your are something you are not.
That just means that a sensible enemy will kill them rather than trying to take them alive.
Sensible enemies will kill the spell caster anyway unless they are VERY confident in their knowledge of the caster's inability to escape. There are just too many things that could go wrong with holding a caster prisoner.
Or, alternatively, they could incapacitate the spellcaster with fun things like feeblemind or ability draining a mental stat to zero. That would solve everything nicely.
I think this is why I like sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell so much; they aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers and can be an amazing threat to their enemies even when captured, bound, gagged and stripped naked.
Except that they too will be at reduced capacity without their stat boosting items. Even a monk is going to be reduced without their monk robes, bracers of armor, amulet of mighty fists, etc.
All PCS will lose a substantial amount of power without WBL appropriate gear.
Heh. True.
L20 wizard from the NPC Codex.
He's not a chump, but a L20 wizard with actual PC gear (such as Karzoug the Claimer) is possibly rocking multiple items (and an inherent bonus!) worth that guy's entire gold budget, and could pretty brutally crush the L20 wizard once even one of them (like a greater quicken rod) gets factored in.
If I cared enough, I'd probably evaluate NPCs at CR = level-2 (or lower!) if actually at NPC gear, maybe CR = level-1 if about halfway towards PC gear, and finally actually at CR = level if actually at PC wealth.
(In practice, I don't care enough to reduce XP values for "lesser" opponents.)
Which actually puts them at CR = level, yes. I could have phrased what I said better, I suppose.
What is the CR difference between Mythics and non-Mythics?
The answer is about the same. There is no good CR adjustment. Without gear, a characters stats and abilities are an unbalanced mess. Some fullcasters can get away without gear but that is only when they themselves are unbalanced via spells.
Gear is not special in this game. You need it just to function.
Except that they too will be at reduced capacity without their stat boosting items.
...
All PCS will lose a substantial amount of power without WBL appropriate gear.
Which in no way conflicts with what I said.
What is the CR difference between Mythics and non-Mythics?
The answer is about the same. There is no good CR adjustment. Without gear, a characters stats and abilities are an unbalanced mess. Some fullcasters can get away without gear but that is only when they themselves are unbalanced via spells.
Gear is not special in this game. You need it just to function.
Mythic Tiers raise the CR by 1/2 the number of mythic tiers I believe. A 20th Level Barbarian with 10 Mythic Tiers is CR25 I believe.
Sadly not able to take on CR39 Lucifer
Sadly not able to take on CR39 Lucifer
What can't? Mythic Tier 10/20th level character 4 man party can definitely take him on.
Just requires some specific builds.
Specifically a well-built Horizon Walker dishin out the damage with a good team to get him into position.
Mythic Tiers raise the CR by 1/2 the number of mythic tiers I believe. A 20th Level Barbarian with 10 Mythic Tiers is CR25 I believe.What is the CR difference between Mythics and non-Mythics?
The answer is about the same. There is no good CR adjustment. Without gear, a characters stats and abilities are an unbalanced mess. Some fullcasters can get away without gear but that is only when they themselves are unbalanced via spells.
Gear is not special in this game. You need it just to function.
Who wins: A CR 40 fighter/Barbarian or a tier 10 level 20 Barbarian?
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Who wins: A CR 40 fighter/Barbarian or a tier 10 level 20 Barbarian?Mythic Tiers raise the CR by 1/2 the number of mythic tiers I believe. A 20th Level Barbarian with 10 Mythic Tiers is CR25 I believe.What is the CR difference between Mythics and non-Mythics?
The answer is about the same. There is no good CR adjustment. Without gear, a characters stats and abilities are an unbalanced mess. Some fullcasters can get away without gear but that is only when they themselves are unbalanced via spells.
Gear is not special in this game. You need it just to function.
Does the CR40 have proportionally more wealth? If so - then probably him - as he owns 1/2 the world.
Who wins: A CR 40 fighter/Barbarian or a tier 10 level 20 Barbarian?Mythic Tiers raise the CR by 1/2 the number of mythic tiers I believe. A 20th Level Barbarian with 10 Mythic Tiers is CR25 I believe.What is the CR difference between Mythics and non-Mythics?
The answer is about the same. There is no good CR adjustment. Without gear, a characters stats and abilities are an unbalanced mess. Some fullcasters can get away without gear but that is only when they themselves are unbalanced via spells.
Gear is not special in this game. You need it just to function.
I think that's a new thread :)
Well, what you said was:Which in no way conflicts with what I said.Except that they too will be at reduced capacity without their stat boosting items.
...
All PCS will lose a substantial amount of power without WBL appropriate gear.
I think this is why I like sorcerers with Eschew Materials, Silent Spell and Still Spell so much; they aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers
"They aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers", except that they are. Just being able to cast the spell is only part of their power. Casting stat boosters to increase the power of the spell, defensive items to keep them from falling to the first well placed arrow, lack of things like metamagic rods and wands to cover for when you run out of spells, etc.
Those are all part of the character's overall power that are diminished by the lack of gear.
A naked lvl 20 sorcerer is still a serious threat, but they are still less of a threat than a fully geared one. So yes, you are "the least bit dependent" on your gear, you just aren't totally dependent on it like a Fighter.
@arthurus Don't tempt me I'll do it.
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A naked lvl 20 sorcerer is still a serious threat, but they are still less of a threat than a fully geared one. So yes, you are "the least bit dependent" on your gear, you just aren't totally dependent on it like a Fighter.
A level 20 sorcerer with no gear. Start with CHA of 20. Cast time stop. Summon in big things. Teleport out/go invisible/wind wall/turn into a dragon/go to your personal dimension/you get the idea. Quicken spells as you see fit.
A lot of big bad spells don't care about save DC, which means a lower charisma doesn't hurt. I've seen arcane casters not care about AC at all, relying on their magic to stay safe. Very little gear helps with SR. So really a lv20 caster could have nothing and still be at full threat level. sure they might be a little easier to hit (if their AC was a problem at all in the first place) with a few less hit points. and A lv 20 sorcerer has 6 lv9 spells, lv8 spells, ... So they have lots of spells available for a day, let alone 1 encounter with no gear.
"They aren't the least bit dependent on gear for their powers", except that they are. Just being able to cast the spell is only part of their power. Casting stat boosters to increase the power of the spell, defensive items to keep them from falling to the first well placed arrow, lack of things like metamagic rods and wands to cover for when you run out of spells, etc.
Those are all part of the character's overall power that are diminished by the lack of gear.
A naked lvl 20 sorcerer is still a serious threat, but they are still less of a threat than a fully geared one. So yes, you are "the least bit dependent" on your gear, you just aren't totally dependent on it like a Fighter.
I was referring to their spells and class abilities, which they don't lose while without their gear.
A level 20 sorcerer with no gear. Start with CHA of 20. Cast time stop.
A naked lvl 20 sorcerer is still a serious threat, but they are still less of a threat than a fully geared one. So yes, you are "the least bit dependent" on your gear, you just aren't totally dependent on it like a Fighter.
Thats quite an assumption thinking that a naked sorcerer is not only not going to be on the wrong end of a surprise round, but that he would be assured of winning initiative.
Way I see it, that Sorcerer isn't going to be able to get a Time Stop cast in the first place. Way I see it, a naked sorcerer is likely to only have an average of 70 hp, maybe an AC 12 from some never-bumped dexterity, and next to zero chance of living long enough to cast anything when being attacked by an entire party of geared lvl 10's.
Heck, with no gear on and lack of Perception as a class skill, I'd wager good money that a single geared 10th level dual wielding Rogue or Ninja could take him out via sneak attack damage alone.
A level 20 sorcerer with no gear. Start with CHA of 20. Cast time stop.
A naked lvl 20 sorcerer is still a serious threat, but they are still less of a threat than a fully geared one. So yes, you are "the least bit dependent" on your gear, you just aren't totally dependent on it like a Fighter.Thats quite an assumption thinking that a naked sorcerer is not only not going to be on the wrong end of a surprise round, but that he would be assured of winning initiative.
Way I see it, that Sorcerer isn't going to be able to get a Time Stop cast in the first place. Way I see it, a naked sorcerer is likely to only have an average of 70 hp, maybe an AC 12 from some never-bumped dexterity, and next to zero chance of living long enough to cast anything when being attacked by an entire party of geared lvl 10's.
Heck, with no gear on and lack of Perception as a class skill, I'd wager good money that a single geared 10th level dual wielding Rogue or Ninja could take him out via sneak attack damage alone.
A 20th level sorcerer should have at least 132 HP naked (average HP, +3 Con modifier). If she has less than a 17 Dex, she's pretty bizarre (a 19 Dex is likely). If she took Toughness, that's about 152 HP to carve through in the opening round.
What kind of point buy are you running where they can afford those kinds of unbuffed stats?
A bit off topic but, are you the Edyminion from 3rdEdition.org?
A bit off topic but, are you the Edyminion from 3rdEdition.org?
Probably, I don't remember it off the top of my head, and it doesn't look like it exists anymore, but I've never seen anyone else using this name before.
Was that the site a bunch of the WotC board members started up after the whole Gleemax fiasco?
A bit off topic but, are you the Edyminion from 3rdEdition.org?Probably, I don't remember it off the top of my head, and it doesn't look like it exists anymore, but I've never seen anyone else using this name before.
Was that the site a bunch of the WotC board members started up after the whole Gleemax fiasco?
Don't think so. It was pre-3.5, and there was a person who wrote articles on the site who went by the same name (or one veeeery close to it) as he had a column called "Ask Edymnion" or something to that degree. It was mostly humor-driven, IIRC.
The site used to host some pretty funny D&D related comics as well (pre-OotS). It is now defunct, however. :(
I was just curious. :)
Nope, might have been the correct Endymion spelling though.
Endymion was a greek mythological character that fell in love with Selena, goddess of the moon. Managed to get the gods to grant him eternal life, but forgot to wish for eternal youth, so he shriveled up into a grasshopper.
Mine is an intentional misspelling of the greek name.
Closest thing I have to an RPG claim to fame was being a big name back on the old WotC boards during the 3e/3.5e era. Last time I checked, they were still using several of the animated class smilies I made for them.
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What kind of point buy are you running where they can afford those kinds of unbuffed stats?
15 point buy. This is a 20th level sorcerer we're talking about. She's obviously going to have her +5 inherent modifiers across the board as cajoling them out of some random planar entity with wish SLAs is cake to her (high Charisma, access to binding, charm, dominate, and similar options, even if only temporarily).
If she started with a generic "arcane nerd" point buy, flip Charisma, and she'd be looking at something like 7, 14, 12, 12, 10, 16. You might flip Dex/Con and Int/Wis depending on how tough you wanna be. Add racial stats (if human you've got a floating +2 which probably gets dumped into Cha). Then add your +5 inherent modifiers 'cause you're a 20th level sorcerer.
End result looks something like 12, 19, 17, 17, 15, 21, with 5 floating points from leveling.
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Nope, might have been the correct Endymion spelling though.
Endymion was a greek mythological character that fell in love with Selena, goddess of the moon. Managed to get the gods to grant him eternal life, but forgot to wish for eternal youth, so he shriveled up into a grasshopper.
Mine is an intentional misspelling of the greek name.
Closest thing I have to an RPG claim to fame was being a big name back on the old WotC boards during the 3e/3.5e era. Last time I checked, they were still using several of the animated class smilies I made for them.
Nice. :D
Yeah, the WotC message boards were really cool...a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. :P
Ah, see I don't assume that every caster will be allowed to abuse the rules that way, so I generally don't factor it in, and few players I've seen would waste the money on tomes just to buff a non-caster stat.What kind of point buy are you running where they can afford those kinds of unbuffed stats?15 point buy. This is a 20th level sorcerer we're talking about. She's obviously going to have her +5 inherent modifiers across the board as cajoling them out of some random planar entity with wish SLAs is cake to her (high Charisma, access to binding, charm, dominate, and similar options, even if only temporarily).
Yeah, the WotC message boards were really cool...a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. :P
Oh get off my lawn! :P
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Ah, see I don't assume that every caster will be allowed to abuse the rules that way, so I generally don't factor it in, and few players I've seen would waste the money on tomes just to buff a non-caster stat.What kind of point buy are you running where they can afford those kinds of unbuffed stats?15 point buy. This is a 20th level sorcerer we're talking about. She's obviously going to have her +5 inherent modifiers across the board as cajoling them out of some random planar entity with wish SLAs is cake to her (high Charisma, access to binding, charm, dominate, and similar options, even if only temporarily).Yeah, the WotC message boards were really cool...a long time ago, in a galaxy far, far away. :POh get off my lawn! :P
It's not abusing the rules. :|
It's a thing that sorcerers have actually done in Paizo-published modules. You are expected to do things like bind djinn and make them give you goodies. It was brought up during the playtests (wish gets nerfed, binding not so much).
Using core material as intended is not "abusing the rules" anymore than casting magic missile is abusing the rules. >_>
And I think the AP that had that going had some fluff going on about the horrible backlash that comes from abusing wishes like that.
Just because you can legally do it doesn't mean it's not rules abuse. But if your GM is cool with rules abuse, then okay.
And I think the AP that had that going had some fluff going on about the horrible backlash that comes from abusing wishes like that.
Just because you can legally do it doesn't mean it's not rules abuse. But if your GM is cool with rules abuse, then okay.
It only appears to be rules abuse because of how powerful arcane casters can be. It's not like it's a hard combo to come up with after some spell research.
So the actual popular stance on the boards is "it's not rules abuse if it's legal?"
Wow, okay.
What the heck DO you consider to be rules abuse, then?
(I've always defined rules abuse as using the RAW to get results that are deliberately detrimental to the game. And yes, I'd consider using planar bindings (or simulacrums) to get 750,000 gold in wishes for free with no repercussions to be a pretty spectacular example of rules abuse =P)