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waaaait, wait.
The gp limits is basically for any number of items, at the lower limit, up to a total of the max limit.
the 3d4 items is items that are ABSOLUTELY THERE, that might be above the gp limit. i.e. the stuff you'd normally have to commission.
Or am I reading it wrong?
==Aelryinth
waaaait, wait.
The gp limits is basically for any number of items, at the lower limit, up to a total of the max limit.
the 3d4 items is items that are ABSOLUTELY THERE, that might be above the gp limit. i.e. the stuff you'd normally have to commission.
Or am I reading it wrong?
==Aelryinth
Ah, you are correct there, I misread. Those are items available above the limit.
So in a Metropolis there could be one or two +3 swords floating around along with a few other random pieces.
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I suppose a high level character could teleport from one city to the next hoping his expensive item would fall into the randomly generated pot. Even if he doesn't find it, he can try checking all those same cities again the following week.
Also, the exotic nature of a weapon has no bearing on its ease of acquirement, only the magical item's price. A gnome hooked hammer is just as easy to find in a community as a dagger.
It's also worth noting that the Base Purchase Modifier restrictions ONLY apply towards magical items. Non-magical items such as adamantine full plate and alchemist fire can be obtained anywhere, regardless of price.
No it's not terribly logical or immersive, but that's the way the rules work currently.
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As someone who uses extensive houserules to prevent magical item NEED, discussions as to the prevalence of magic are one of flavor.
I still load up my PCs with money and gear. They just do not NEED that gear to function. I also find it balancing to craft feats, since those feats worse problem is giving characters faster big 6 progression.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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Holy tangent Batman!
I think it's possible for trade hub metropolises to get a 24k base value or so.
But yeah, in general if you need something above +2-3, you either need to find it, make it, or commission it made. And the last two involve time issues, as it can take months to make really good items. It's especially tough to drop off your +4 sword to be upgraded to +5 by the local adept over the course of 18 days, only to have something happen during that time that makes you wish you had your weapon to use.
I don't know about item crafters ever sowing resent in the party - usually it's the needed downtime to craft that rankles. Although Skull&Shackles has been great for crafting - my witch gets to avoid all ship duties just to sit in his cabin and crank out items for the crew.
While I see your view Edymnion, I would point out that Ultimate Campaign recommends letting an item creation feat increase WBL by about 25%. It should be a little bit more than just "we have exactly what we want." Although I've seen players complain that creation feats were pointless in campaigns where they couldn't abuse custom items to make crazy things like always on true strike and such. Just shows the variance of expectations.
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I basically let my PCs buy whatever once they have access to Axis, though they still need to come up with how they're tracking down the exact item they want in an infinite city.
My Carrion Crown party came up with a solution that included, among other things, multiple high level casters using divination and exchanging their own magic for assistance from the realm of Abadar.
My Reign of Winter party has a much simpler solution, sort of provided by the AP (I kind of upgraded what he can do) - the aid of a grateful mercane, who's got connections and uses them to the party's benefit.
@ Ryric - the highest I was able to get a metropolis to was 33,600 base value, and 220,000 purchase limit.
It's always seemed a fairly easy question to me; does the gear change a creature's position on this chart?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
If so, it changes the CR.
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It's always seemed a fairly easy question to me; does the gear change a creature's position on this chart?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/monsters/monsterCreation.html
If so, it changes the CR.
That chart is so wrong it's not even funny.
PC power level at your table not matching the chart doesn't make the chart "wrong". PC power level varies vastly from table to table, and if it isn't working for you, it likely just means that the PC power level at your table is out of line with the baseline assumptions that the chart works from.
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That chart is so wrong it's not even funny.It's always seemed a fairly easy question to me; does the gear change a creature's position on this chart?
This how you link things peasant!
If so, it changes the CR.
I actually use that chart a lot when making ad-hoc monsters mid session.
The numbers seem to give the challenge their CR relates to. It just doesn't do a good job of giving metrics a PC should shoot for.
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PC power level at your table not matching the chart doesn't make the chart "wrong". PC power level varies vastly from table to table, and if it isn't working for you, it likely just means that the PC power level at your table is out of line with the baseline assumptions that the chart works from.
No, I mean the power level of existing monsters don't line up with the chart.
What about for monsters particularly at low level. Take the lowly kobold.
A Warrior 1 in the Bestiary lists him having a sling, leather armor and a spear. If you build a level 1 encounter with four of these guys you've got a GP budget in the treasure of the encounter of 260 GP. That's enough to outfit all four of these guys with a shortbow, shortspear, leather armor and a buckler. Now instead of dealing an average 1hp with ranged attacks they're dealing on average 2.5 with a ranged attack and you've STILL got some gold left over. Maybe you buy some acid flasks, or maybe a couple potions of Resistance to make sure they don't fail saves. Suddenly your "minor annoyance" fight has a real chance of taking out one of the level 1 PCs coming up the tunnel.
So in that instance, should the gear advantage alone change the CR to 2? You've effectively negated one of the weaknesses of the kobold by giving them a range weapon not dependent on Str. You've also given them a +1 to their AC in melee and if you pick the acid flasks given them the chance to deal 4d6 damage to a single foe in a round or if you give them potions of Resistance they may last an extra round because of improved saves against the PCs' save-or-suck spell.
Are we supposed to outfit monsters with the gear in their stat block in the Beastiaries? If not, how does this affect their CR?
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Looks like classed NPCs 101 to me. That's pretty much just kobolds (and everything else) for you. On a side note, the d20 system was designed with the idea that an equal CR encounter will drain about 20-25% of your party's resources (which is roughly one party member).
Honestly, if they are actually kobold soldiers as the warrior level would imply, I'd probably have given them light crossbows (1d6, no Str penalties), some studded leather armor (to keep them light and mobile), a buckler (which explicitly allows you to shoot without penalties), and an assortment of gadgets and/or grenades such as caltrops, acid flasks or alchemist fire, etc.
CR 1 encounter? Absolutely. 4d6 damage if all the kobolds hit the same PC? Yeah that's really nasty. That CR 1/3 orc that crits for 3d12+9 damage? Also pretty nasty.
Depends on the gear. Try flipping it around.
Say you had an adventure ready designed to challenge 5 new players and one of the players shows up with the trait Rich Parents or Chosen Child giving them 900 or more starting gold.
If that player brought a caviler and the extra funds went for a silk pavilion, fine wines, folding bathtub, hirelings: chef, groom, man-servant, a few odds-bodies - all of which stayed back at camp - probably not too much effect.
If that player brought a druid and had spent it buying animals and had spent 3 or 4 months before the adventure training those animals (1 hour per animal, 16 animals a day, 2 weeks each) and showed up at the mouth of the dungeon ordering the 25 dire rats (5 gp each) they had trained in guarding to guard each PC (5 each) and split the 20 they had trained in fighting to go in front of and behind the party, keeping the 30 stirges (20 gp each) they had trained (10 in air support, 10 in burglary and 10 in fighting) in reserve. Would you need to have the character or adventure modified?
Depends on the gear. Try flipping it around
Of course, "it depends" is a safe and useless answer to almost everything.
We can say that a first level PC is a CR1 encounter, but it depends on the PC. A first level wizard who dumps intelligence and buys a barbarian stat array is probably not CR 1. She lacks the ability to cast spells, the proficiency with weapons and armor that would make her a threat in combat, or the skills to be a credible non-combat challenge.
So does character level contribute to CR? "It depends."
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That's correct...you can commission large items, but they aren't necessarily going to be around.
That said, once you find the large town/metropolis, you likely always have access to its markets.
Note that commissioning large items is totally realistic. Tying up 8000 gp of capital for a 16,000 gp item is a HUGE outlay, as well as theft bait. Expenses on security, bribes and whatnot probably account for a good chunk of that final price, as well as foregone earnings in other areas. Not a lot of people can have that kind of money tied up waiting for someone to come along and buy their bling. Commission work is probably more reliable...but likely dominated by guilds who would be VERY sure to try and maintain dominance.
==Aelyrinth
Another problem with commissioning items...there's no guarantee that the item won't have additional, unasked for enchantments on it. Things that let it be tracked, or disabled with a command word.
Sometimes you really need to be careful who you ask to make your items, especially when you have made powerful enemies. Not that that's ever happened to me...
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I think it's fair to say that a properly built character with gear that complements the character will be outright stronger than a similarly built character who doesn't have that gear - or who has a significantly lower level of gear.
Humanoid opponents who are PC-classed get docked a point of CR because they default to having relatively crummy gear - by 10th level, NPCs are expected to have 1/6th the gear value of what a PC is expected to have.
All of which has probably already been said upthread, but hey.
It greatly depends on the challenge of the fight ahead in the first place. I know theres 120+ comments before mine that state it but il ad my opinion anyway.
Page 291 of the bestiary tells you the target numbers for opponents of any cr up to 20. A PC wealth fighter hits for WAY more damage then the table assumes and his defenses are probably a lot lower. Then the fight CR greatly depends on the abilities of the attacki party and the Fighter's exact gear choices. If the fighter cannot, for example, fly somehow (through items or other unique circumstances) or be an effective ranged combatant then he might as well be CR 1 to almost any competent PC party.
Asid from the combat circumstance, the exact build of the fighter matters greatly too, even if we assume he is going to stand toe-to-toe in a fair fight with some other martial melee character. How high is the damage and how good is his AC? The rules say that a Classed NPC has a CR equal to his level -1, and the reduction is removed if he has PC wealth, in reality this can put the character WAY WAY WAAAAY out of line with his assumed CR, a defensive build with only a minor output of damage, or the other way around. A good GM will check these numbers before assigning CR to begin with, and then the CR reduction when hsi gear is removed would change appropriately.
Example:
Valeros's (Iconic fighter as per Rise of the runelords AP 1) damage statistic is: +4 Longsword, 1d8+2.
His AC value is 17 with his chainmail.
As a 1st level NPC his Cr would be 1 in a fair fight circumstance.
Out of armor and with no weapon his AC becomes 12 and his attack becomes: Unarmed +3 1d3+2.
With no weapons and no metal gloves his unarmed attacks provoke attacks of opportunity.
If you compare this with the bestiary statistics you will note that Valeros's statistics with his arms and armor equipped are higher then the table suggests, he is twice as accurate, his damage is spot on, his AC is 5 points too high but his HP are too low. The new numbers put him in a better spot for his attack bonus and AC, but still his Hit points are too low.
Valeros's statistics without his armor would put him in a better spot as a balanced CR 1 encounter, but he needs his sword to deal appropriate damage. Withotu the sword he becomes a pushover cr 1/3 because not only is his damage gimped but his attacks provoke AoO's.
In other words.
Valeros's stats are too high for an NPC, because he is meant to be a player character. If you take away his gear then he becomes a threat half his actual challenge rating.
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Couldn't you have picked one of the iconics whose not so statistically bad that I would feel guilty handing him out as a pregen?
Couldn't you have picked one of the iconics whose not so statistically bad that I would feel guilty handing him out as a pregen?
No because his Bad-ness made him an easy example :)
Glancing at the monster creation tables, and thinking about the likely fatalities in an an encounter (pondered in the aforementioned bathing thread) I'd feel comfortable putting a 20th level fighter at about CR 15 to 18. His damage output is low until he gets his hands on a weapon, but there is a good chance that an underprepared assault team will lose 1-2 party members before they take him down, assuming he doesn't simply escape. A fighter who spent a lot of gp on inherent bonuses and has Improved Unarmed Strike and TWF is probably more at the CR 17 end, the greatsword-wielding beatdown specialist closer to the CR 15 end. In a theoretical sense, CR 10 would be the reasonable bottom, because the CR system is balanced around the idea that almost nothing is going to have twice as many HD as its CR. Treating a fighter as a "monstrous humanoid" with 20 HD, which seems fair, would suggest a CR of around 15.
A 20th level wizard is probably no worse than CR 17. His defenses don't suffer all that much, and even if he doesn't have Spell Mastery, he can still use most of his spells and worry about replacing his spellbook later. His main weakness is the lowering of his spell DCs due to lacking some kind of enhancement bonus. But numerically, he's behind the curve; a 20 HD fey would be around CR 12. If he wins initiative, he's CR 18, if he loses it, he might as well be CR 10.
So, call it -1 per halving of wealth, but no more than CR -2 for full casters and characters with lots of special abilities (monks don't do so badly, for instance). And keep in mind that for monsters with standard treasure, their CR accounts for their perhaps using some items from their hoard, particularly if they are intelligent.