Phalanx Fighter + duelist + slashing Grace


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Basically what it says. Grab three levels of Phalanx fighter, use a pole arm one handed with a buckler. Grab some duelist levels (or daring champion cavalier) and slashing grace... use a polearm (May I recommend the fauchard?) with dex to hit and damage and with all the benefits of being a duelist.

Profit?

I honestly would like to do with this 8 levels in skirnir magus to have spell combat with a polearm while using a shield. The idea being that with a Fauchard you can use wyroot and abuse the heck out of your arcane pool.

So what do you think? Anything else this could work well with?


Abraham spalding wrote:

Basically what it says. Grab three levels of Phalanx fighter, use a pole arm one handed with a buckler. Grab some duelist levels (or daring champion cavalier) and slashing grace... use a polearm (May I recommend the fauchard?) with dex to hit and damage and with all the benefits of being a duelist.

Profit?

I honestly would like to do with this 8 levels in skirnir magus to have spell combat with a polearm while using a shield.

So what do you think? Anything else this could work well with?

Don't think this works, unfortunately.

Slashing Grace wrote:
Choose one kind of one-handed slashing weapon (such as the longsword). When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can treat it as a one-handed piercing melee weapon for all feats and class abilities that require such a weapon (such as a swashbuckler's or a duelist's precise strike) and you can add your Dexterity modifier instead of your Strength modifier to that weapon's damage. The weapon must be one appropriate for your size.
Phalanx Fighting wrote:
At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon. This ability replaces armor training 1.

Just because Phalanx Fighting allows you to use a pole weapon as a one-handed weapon, doesn't actually mean it is a one-handed weapon.


If you're using it as a one-handed weapon it counts as a one-handed weapon for things. There's a faq that says this.


How you use the weapon is what decides how it interacts though.

For example I'm not getting strength and a half if I'm not two handing the weapon. For the character the polearm is a one-handed weapon.


Well then, I stand corrected.

Grand Lodge

You will need Slashing Grace(Sibat), and Martial Versatility.

So, you will need to be a Human, Half-Orc, Half-Elf, or Aasimar with the Scion of Humanity racial trait.


No you don't, unless you're also willing to say you can't take slashing grace with a bastard sword.

Contributor

1 person marked this as a favorite.

The combo's perfectly legal; here's the build that I made using it for Iconic Design.

I also quote the FAQ that specially allows this interaction to work.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

You can take Slashing Grace with a Bastard Sword because it IS a 1-handed melee weapon and is classified as such on weapon tables.

You cannot take Slashing Grace with a polearm because treating it as a 1-handed weapon and it actually BEING a 1-handed weapon are two totally different things.

Is this annoying? Yes. Is this RAW? Yes. If you want to do this in a home game, nothing is stopping you, but Blackbloodtroll is right: you cannot use this in a RAW game without Martial Versatility and Slashing Grace (Sibat).

Sorry if the bolded sentence seems pretentious or anything, but it really needs emphasis.


A bastard sword is a two handed weapon that has a special case that lets you use it differently, because you can use it differently you can take slashing grace with it. Until you have ewp in bastard sword you can't take slashing grace with it. Once you have the ability to use a polearm one handed it too qualifies. If you don't use it one handed you can't use the feat with it, just like you would be unable to use both slashing grace and shield of blows at the same time.

A weapon is how you use it.


You lose the Duelist's abilities of Canny Defense, Precise Strike, Enhanced Mobility and Grace with using a buckler in this build. Make sure to account for that.


Quote:
A bastard sword is a two handed weapon that has a special case that lets you use it differently, because you can use it differently you can take slashing grace with it.

Wrong.

Look at this table: Weapons

Ctrl-F: Bastard

You will find it listed under Exotic One-Handed Weapons.

Read its page description:

Quote:
A bastard sword is about 4 feet in length, making it too large to use in one hand without special training; thus, it is an exotic weapon. A character can use a bastard sword two-handed as a martial weapon.

It never says it is a two-handed weapon. It says it may be used as a martial two-handed weapon.

The Bastard Sword is a one-handed weapon. THAT is why you can use it with Slashing Grace.

Grand Lodge

Don't bring that rules anomaly, that is the Bastard Sword into this.

The point is, you still treat the Fauchard as a two-handed weapon, in regards to prerequisites.

So, if you had a feat that had wording, such as "choose an One-handed weapon", or "Choose a Two-handed weapon", then the base weapon should meet those prerequisites.

You wield Polearms "as an One-handed weapon", but you do not treat them as such for prerequisites.

You couldn't choose a Fauchard as a Blackblade, and you could enchant a Longspear with the Flamboyant enchantment.

Now, something that can only be used with an One-handed weapon, such as Slashing Grace, and you have both a way to bypass prerequisites, and wield a Two-handed weapon, as an One-handed weapon, then it works.

Another example is the Shield-Trained trait, which allows you to treat Heavy Shields as Simple Light weapons. So, you could use them with Weapon Finesse, but you could not enchant them with the Inspired, or Agile enchantment.


Guys & Gals, this is from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook FAQ of 2015.

Bastard Sword: Is this a one-handed weapon or a two-handed weapon?
A bastard sword is a one-handed weapon (although for some rules it blurs the line between a one-handed and a two-handed weapon).

The physical properties of a bastard sword are that of a one-handed weapon. For example, its hardness, hit points, ability to be crafted out of special materials, category for using the Craft skill, effect of alchemical silver, and so on, are all that of a one-handed weapon.

For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.

For example, if you are wielding it one-handed (which normally requires the Exotic Weapon Proficiency feat), it is treated as a one-handed weapon; Power Attack only gets the one-handed bonus, you cannot use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

If you are wielding it with two hands (whether or not you have the Exotic Weapon Proficiency to wield it with one hand), it is treated as a two-handed weapon; Power Attack gets the increased damage bonus, you can use Pushing Assault or Shield of Swings (which require a two-handed weapon), and so on.

An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

posted October 2013

Grand Lodge

The Bastard Sword is not really relevant here.

Apples to Oranges.


Eigengrau wrote:


An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

posted October 2013

The Bastard Sword itself is irrelevant, but this isn't.


Eigengrau wrote:

You lose the Duelist's abilities of Canny Defense, Precise Strike, Enhanced Mobility and Grace with using a buckler in this build. Make sure to account for that.

Yeah, I grabbed the wrong class -- I meant to post for the swashbuckler -- which works with a buckler.


The issue with this particular combo is a polearm isn't a one-handed weapon just because you're a Phalanx fighter. A Phalanx Fighter treats a polearm as the two-handed weapon that it is, but with the exception that: "when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon".

To make Slashing Grace valid with a polearm, you would have to be able to apply Slashing Grace to a specific polearm that was appropriate to your size (a distinction that you can't make regarding an entire class of weapon), and you would have to select the feat while you were wielding a shield (which is getting a little absurd).


Quote:
To make Slashing Grace valid with a polearm, you would have to be able to apply Slashing Grace to a specific polearm that was appropriate to your size (a distinction that you can't make regarding an entire class of weapon), and you would have to select the feat while you were wielding a shield (which is getting a little absurd).

Right, basically the only way to do this is via the human feat Martial Versatility. So, you'd need proficiency in the Sibat, and then you'd need to use Martial Versatility (Slashing Grace) to make your Slashing Grace feat apply to the whole weapon group which includes the fauchard.

Once you do that this is perfectly viable.

Grand Lodge

I have already built a PC with this combo, so I have scoured to rules to make this work.

So, I have shown you how, but you seem to want it to work, without the proper investments.

I can't help you with that.


I disagree, a sibat is normally a two handed weapon, but exclusivly in the hands of a lvl 3 Plalanx Fighter, it is a one handed weapon, and can be treated as such in all ways.

Since the treats their sibat as a one handed weapon, and it's a slashing weapon, you can apply slashing grace, to what is (exclusively to that character) a one handed slashing weapon.

Although shattering that buckler returns the sibat to two handed status, and ruins everything.


Quote:

I disagree, a sibat is normally a two handed weapon, but exclusivly in the hands of a lvl 3 Plalanx Fighter, it is a one handed weapon, and can be treated as such in all ways.

Since the treats their sibat as a one handed weapon, and it's a slashing weapon, you can apply slashing grace, which is (exclusively to that character) a one handed slashing weapon.

Although shattering that buckler returns the sibat to two handed status, and ruins everything.

The Sibat is a one-handed melee weapon.

Look at this page: Click.

They can't, however, apply Slashing Grace to the fauchard because that is a two-handed weapon.

Grand Lodge

Well, he can't initially apply Slashing Grace to a Fauchard, until he can wield it as an One-handed weapon, and has Martial Versatility.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, he can't initially apply Slashing Grace to a Fauchard, until he can wield it as an One-handed weapon, and has Martial Versatility.

Except if you can wield it one handed it matches what is needed for the feat.

EDIT: Actually I think this ties in rather closely into the thread in the rules forum about mithril armor and what "other" means. Such as if normally medium mithril armor qualifies for certain traits that require medium armor or if it counts as light armor for the brawling enhancement.

The FAQs (both of them) indicate that how you use the weapon is more important for feats and abilities than where they sit on the chart.


It's kinda different I think, because with mithral armor, the property of being medium is inherent to the armor itself, while here the weapon's property of being one handed relies on the user (and the user having a shield, no less).


Abraham spalding wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, he can't initially apply Slashing Grace to a Fauchard, until he can wield it as an One-handed weapon, and has Martial Versatility.
Except if you can wield it one handed it matches what is needed for the feat.

Being able to wield specific fauchards as one-handed weapons under specific circumstances doesn't mean that all fauchards as a universal weapon type are now one-handed weapons, and thus eligible for Slashing Grace.

When you select Slashing Grace you must select, right then and there, an entire class of weapon that qualifies as a one-handed slashing weapon. Saying "well, if I later wield a specific weapon of this category that is sized correctly while also wielding a shield then it's a one-handed slashing weapon, therefore now I can pick that entire class of weapon for Slashing Grace" doesn't work.

Grand Lodge

Are you saying one could have a Fauchard Black Blade?

No.

You don't treat all Polearms and Spears as One-haned weapons for prerequisites, but you can wield them as an One-handed weapon.

So, whilst wielding it in this fashion, you treat them as One-handed weapons in regards to feats and abilities.

However, you do not treat them as such, at any other time.

Do you understand now?


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Are you saying one could have a Fauchard Black Blade?

No.

You don't treat all Polearms and Spears as One-haned weapons for prerequisites, but you can wield them as an One-handed weapon.

So, whilst wielding it in this fashion, you treat them as One-handed weapons in regards to feats and abilities.

However, you do not treat them as such, at any other time.

Do you understand now?

I understand your position -- I don't agree that you are right. Please don't misconstrue my opposition with your position with misunderstanding it.

Your position doesn't match how any of the FAQs about wielding weapons have been written or anything the design team has said about how different things count as something else when abilities change how they are used, and usage has always been the deciding factor in what you can and can't take/do with a weapon.

It's like any other feat -- when you can meet the specifics (the ability to use a weapon that is slashing as one handed, having weapon focus and weapon finesse) you can take the feat for that weapon because it means the prerequisites for you.

If something happens and you can't meet the prerequisites for whatever reason (say the buckler gets sundered) you can't use the feat involved. That's standard to pathfinder.

The thing is I can meet the prerequisites -- I can use the weapon one handed making it an one handed weapon for me.

Every FAQ to date and position provided by the design team both as a team and as individuals has allowed that how you can use something determines what feats you can use with it and how it interacts with feats.


LoneKnave wrote:
It's kinda different I think, because with mithral armor, the property of being medium is inherent to the armor itself, while here the weapon's property of being one handed relies on the user (and the user having a shield, no less).

And yet it has all the same effects on game play. Is the armor medium or light for the purposes of the brawler enhancement? It's normally medium but in this cause it's become light. Which does it count as?

Is the weapon one handed or two handed? Normally it's two handed but in this cause it's one handed -- which does it count as? According to both FAQs it's an one handed weapon because that's how it's being used.

Please note I am not saying that you would continue to benefit from the feat while using it without a shield. I am saying however when you are using it with the shield as a one handed weapon it qualifies again and the feat would work.

It would be like having a familiar that grants you alertness and then taking uncanny alertness. You qualify for the feat even though you haven't taken it. However if something happens and you lose access to what is granting you alertness you won't benefit from uncanny alertness until the thing granting access to alertness is restored.


sorry about the sabat thing, in my post just subsitute the word Sibat for Fauchard.

I don't see why I need Martal Versatility when my Fauchard (in the hands of my lvl 3 phalanex fighter) is already a one-handed Slashing Weapon


Does the polearm have fewer hit points when used by a Phalanx Fighter?


does a longsword have more when it's being used as a two handed weapon?


Diminuendo wrote:
does a longsword have more when it's being used as a two handed weapon?

Wielding a weapon in two hands does not make it a two-handed weapon.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Does the polearm have fewer hit points when used by a Phalanx Fighter?

Would you argue you can't use shield of swings with a long sword used two handedly?

Scratch that -- as a matter of fact that is your exact argument -- that the words in the equipment section matter more than how you use the weapon.

Which the FAQ says is wrong.

For the purposes of feats and abilities how you use a weapon is the type of weapon it is.

Using a longsword two handedly? You can use shield of swings with it.

Using a polearm onehandedly you can use slashing grace with it. Since it is a one handed weapon for you, you can take slashing grace with it.

Grand Lodge

Can you use the Effortless Lace with a Fauchard?


blackbloodtroll wrote:
Can you use the Effortless Lace with a Fauchard?

If you can use it one handed you can.

If you can't use it one handed then the magic would have no effect for you.


Abraham spalding wrote:
The thing is I can meet the prerequisites -- I can use the weapon one handed making it an one handed weapon for me.

The prerequisite for choosing a weapon for Slashing Grace is that it's a one-handed weapon, not that you can use an appropriately sized weapon of that type as a one-handed weapon under the right circumstances.

If Phalanx Fighter said "you can treat polearms as one-handed weapons" or "polearms are one-handed weapons for the Phalanx Fighter" or some such statement, it would work.

If Slashing Grace said "Choose one kind of slashing weapon. When wielding your chosen weapon one-handed, you can..." then it would also work.

As they're written, it doesn't work.


That's at best splitting hairs. "You can use it that way but you don't treat it as if it was one" is BS, by that idea you should get two handed power attack damage with it since "you don't treat it as a one handed weapon you just use it that way."

Which again is the exact opposite of what the FAQs say.

Quote:
For class abilities, feats, and other rule elements that vary based on or specifically depend on wielding a one-handed weapon, a two-handed weapon, or a one-handed weapon with two hands, the bastard sword counts as however many hands you are using to wield it.


Diminuendo wrote:
there are rules for using a one handed weapon as a two handed weapon.

There are rules for using a polearm as a one handed weapon, and there is an FAQ that states how you use a weapon is what that weapon is for feats, class abilities and other rule elements.


BadBird wrote:

If Phalanx Fighter said "you can treat polearms as one-handed weapons" or "polearms are one-handed weapons for the Phalanx Fighter" or some such statement, it would work.

"phalanx fighter wrote:


At 3rd level, when a phalanx soldier wields a shield, he can use any polearm or spear of his size as a one-handed weapon.


The FAQ even goes into detail on other abilities that allow the same thing:
An unusual case of the handedness rule is an ability that allows you to treat a two-handed weapon as a one-handed weapon. For example, the titan mauler's jotungrip (which allows you to wield a two-handed weapon with one hand) allows you to wield a bastard sword in one hand even without the Exotic Weapon Proficiency, and (as the ability states) treats it as a one-handed weapon, therefore it is treated as a one-handed weapon for other effects.

How you use it is how it is treated for feats, abilities and other rule elements.

Now if you lose the ability to use it that way those abilities, feats and such stop functioning if they rely on you using it that way. Just like any other special case.


exactly, onece you lose that buckler it's a two handed weapon, it doesn't count as a one-handed piercing weapon, even with slashing grace.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Does the polearm have fewer hit points when used by a Phalanx Fighter?

Would you argue you can't use shield of swings with a long sword used two handedly?

Scratch that -- as a matter of fact that is your exact argument -- that the words in the equipment section matter more than how you use the weapon.

Which the FAQ says is wrong.

For the purposes of feats and abilities how you use a weapon is the type of weapon it is.

Using a longsword two handedly? You can use shield of swings with it.

Using a polearm onehandedly you can use slashing grace with it. Since it is a one handed weapon for you, you can take slashing grace with it.

You didn't answer my question.


I don't think it would, as a bastard sword always has one handed hit points.


Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Does the polearm have fewer hit points when used by a Phalanx Fighter?

Would you argue you can't use shield of swings with a long sword used two handedly?

Scratch that -- as a matter of fact that is your exact argument -- that the words in the equipment section matter more than how you use the weapon.

Which the FAQ says is wrong.

For the purposes of feats and abilities how you use a weapon is the type of weapon it is.

Using a longsword two handedly? You can use shield of swings with it.

Using a polearm onehandedly you can use slashing grace with it. Since it is a one handed weapon for you, you can take slashing grace with it.

You didn't answer my question.

As a matter of fact I don't have to because the FAQ answers it for you while simultaneously tearing your supposed argument a part.

Also your question is a false dilemma because it supposes that giving the answer will answer the real question which it does not.

An FAQ you have failed to address in anyway shape or form, that specifically addresses the situation and already answers your question.

However: No the Fauchard does not lose HP while being used by the phalanx fighter as per the FAQ.

Grand Lodge

You cannot use the Effortless Lace with a Fauchard.

It doesn't matter who is using it.

Even the idea, that you could enchant a weapon, normally not allowed, just because you can use it different, is silly.

Anyone can use that same Fauchard.

It doesn't even make sense, in a rules sense.

Why wouldn't you just go for the legal way to do this?

This is just going to piss off a DM, who will disallow such shenanigans.

Scarab Sages

Now now now, let's crank it up to 11 an add Effortless Lace

Fauchard (2-Handed) =(Phalanx Lvl. 3)=> Fauchard (1-Handed) =(Effortless Lace)=> Fauchard (Light)

Unless you wanted to be a Finesse Phalanx Fighter, I think this is probably suboptimal due to the dipping penalties. Though lightly armored Two Weapon Fighting with a heavy shield with shield spikes (1-handed to light via another effortless lace) and polearm would be pretty neat (leather loincloth not included).


blackbloodtroll wrote:

You cannot use the Effortless Lace with a Fauchard.

It doesn't matter who is using it.

Even the idea, that you could enchant a weapon, normally not allowed, just because you can use it different, is silly.

Anyone can use that same Fauchard.

It doesn't even make sense, in a rules sense.

Why wouldn't you just go for the legal way to do this?

This is just going to piss off a DM, who will disallow such shenanigans.

So basically...

you don't like it but have nothing that actually disputes that the FAQ says it works exactly like I'm saying it does.

Because by the FAQ, you can use effortless lace with it. Though that would be a waste since then you couldn't use slashing grace with it (since effortless lace states the weapon works as a light weapon for interactions with feats rendering slashing grace useless with it).


B. A. Robards-Debardot wrote:

Now now now, let's crank it up to 11 an add Effortless Lace

Fauchard (2-Handed) =(Phalanx Lvl. 3)=> Fauchard (1-Handed) =(Effortless Lace)=> Fauchard (Light)

Unless you wanted to be a Finesse Phalanx Fighter, I think this is probably suboptimal due to the dipping penalties. Though lightly armored Two Weapon Fighting with a heavy shield with shield spikes (1-handed to light via another effortless lace) and polearm would be pretty neat (leather loincloth not included).

Effortless lace would kill your ability to use slashing grace though. At which point you are actually cutting into your damage. You would be better off going with levels in swashbuckler to get the bonus damage from precise strike (which works with a buckler).

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