(DM Request) Running a Camapiagn with Permanent Death


Advice

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Essentially I have for quite some time toyed with the idea of running a campaign where it was a rule that "You cannot bring the death back to life"... at least not without terrible or hefty consequences for any who are foolish or desperate enough to try.

The undead would be one example of how such an act could go wrong, cults dedicated to such a goal, or even antagonist or other NPC with a motivation of bring a loved one, family member, or friend. Perhaps even a member of the party... and have it weaved into the story as a plot device.

Where the party sees for themselves see how far some are willing to go to break this rule, the terrible or dark things they are willing to do even take the lives of others... yet fail no matter what they do.
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My question is how to sell to players such a campaign that doesn't have any means of bringing back someone that has died... not even the 'almighty' Wish or Miracle spells. How to balance encounters and battles with the idea of that while it is possible for a player's character to die it wont happen as often and when it does it can actually add to the campaign not take away from it. Perhaps by offering the player creates a character that is a family member of friend of their old character or someone inspired by their action.

I want to try a no Raise Dead or Resurrection campaign, and Wish or Miracle cannot be used as such, where it is strictly enforced that you cannot bring the dead back to life.

Yet perhaps I can allow the spell Breath of Life since since it has the limitation of 1 round. Reincarnation could perhaps be allowed, though with the understanding the character wouldn't truly be the same person.

What would all of you recommend?


I just played a Walking Dead style campaign, where the world was affected by some kind of ridiculously OP spell; when anything living dies, It's affected by the zombie template within 2 minutes. Unless the players can cast "raise dead" within 1 round of the character/npc hitting -10, they will become zombified. Totally cool setting, but also kind of made clerics OP anyway, as everything could be slapped with channels - at least, until they run out, and then they're just another person with a beatstick.


You could also theme it similar to Midgard, the slain are taken to the afterlife where they fight in an epic war, taking them from their glory is not only unnatural, it is completely dishonorable. This makes it so culturally biased against the idea, that even evil people will be rare to break the taboo, meaning when you do use undead they can be completely custom to avoid players feeling like "great, more skeletons/zombies/ghouls".

(Note: This also has the side effect of not keeping the fallen pc's gear other than consumables, since they will need it in the afterlife, meaning less vulture-ish PC's.)

You really need a group of players who will embrace this concept, or it won't really work.

Also, take all the insta-death Spells and SLA's out of common monster stats, and make them more rare as well.

The idea is that since your death affects your status in the afterlife, death magic with no chance should be just as shameful to use since it cheapens the death.

Of course, truly evil villains will do it, and some special "advanced" monsters will have it, but it should be more of an epic battle of attrition than insta-win spells.


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JonathonWilder wrote:

My question is how to sell to players such a campaign that doesn't have any means of bringing back someone that has died... not even the 'almighty' Wish or Miracle spells. How to balance encounters and battles with the idea of that while it is possible for a player's character to die it wont happen as often and when it does it can actually add to the campaign not take away from it. Perhaps by offering the player creates a character that is a family member of friend of their old character or someone inspired by their action.

I want to try a no Raise Dead or Resurrection campaign, and Wish or Miracle cannot be used as such, where it is strictly enforced that you cannot bring the dead back to life.

Yet perhaps I can allow the spell Breath of Life since since it has the limitation of 1 round. Reincarnation could perhaps be allowed, though with the understanding the character wouldn't truly be the same person.

What would all of you recommend?

I would recommend a few things.


  • Speak to your players about the role-playing opportunity for a "noble death". I've run campaigns before where my players knew explicitly before game-play began that character death was not only possible, but also likely if they made illogical choices in life-or-death situations. One of the most memorable sessions was the death of our group's assassin, and he took it like a champ! Not only did he have a Ring of Delayed Doom (and ran through all 9 garnets), he took the time to confess his love to another party member, give a pretty good "remember me" speech, and then immolate in a pyre of magical flames that left the entire group in awe of not only his character's death, but his role-playing prowess. There were tears, and it was awesome. Three years later, some of the players still talk about it.
  • When characters die, allow the player to bring in a secondary character (inserted as the story progresses, not just thrown in immediately with zero explanation) that is of the same level as their previous character (sans any experience above and beyond the minimum for that level). It's useful to have backup characters prepared that are leveled up alongside the primary character so that it has minimal impact on game flow. This gives players the chance to play something different (if they choose to do so). Personally, I make the requirement that any three of the character's "personality, class, race, general backstory, motivation for joining the party, or inter-character connections" must be different from the previous character. This gives them the opportunity to have similar characters, if they so choose, but prevents them from bringing their previous character's clone into play. This has worked out extremely well.
  • Actions have consequences. Impress this simple fact upon them. Heroes aren't heroic because there's no chance for them to die. Heroes are heroic because of their deeds. By that same token, your deeds have consequences for the story. This makes players a bit more cautious, especially if they don't want their characters to die. They'll think things through (like most normal non-murderhobos would) before acting, because slaughtering the goblin tribe might lead to larger consequences later on. Charging headlong into danger could get the entire party wiped.
  • I would allow for powerful resurrection rituals that have a 50% chance of destroying their soul completely (no take-backsies - the character has been irrevocably wiped from existence), a 35% chance of raising the characters as a form of undead equal to their CR, a 5% chance of raising their character from the dead but leaving their mind and soul scarred (think derangements and madness, a burning suicidal desire to end their existence, extreme anger at party members for "pulling them out of eternal paradise", or even a combination of such scars), a 5% chance of bringing them back to life just fine, and a 5% chance of not only failing, but attracting the immediate attention of an angry god or goddess that either personally lays the smack down upon the party for defying the gods' wills, or sends all manner of curses and/or plagues that affect not only the party, but those around them. Clash of the Titans may have been a somewhat campy movie (both versions of it), but when Calibos defied Zeus by killing his sacred herd of pegasi, he was turned into a pretty horrific monster for his crimes. There's nothing to say that the goddess of death might not visit similar punishments upon the cleric that raised the character from the dead. If that cleric is a party member, it may generate a quest to appease the goddess or challenge her to restore the cleric to normal. If that cleric is not a party member, you've instantly created an NPC antagonist. Congratulations on your bungling! (See: actions have consequences.)

I hope that this gives you a few ideas on how you can approach the situation that can make the game a lot more interesting for players, and interesting is, in my book, a lot more fun than "We've killed everything again! Go us! Now let's take the treasure and go kill some more!"

Best wishes!


The best way to sell it players is tell them up front that this is the sort of game you will be running. Most players shouldn't have a problem with this. If they come into a game expecting raises and then find out they can't it might cause some discontent.

Breath of Life...I'd probably disallow it but if you want to keep it, bump it up a level or two. Bringing people back from the dead in that manner, even if it's only within a round, will be very impressive.
Reincarnation: I'd disallow it. If this truly is a different character you might as well make a character from scratch.


Or, as an added homerule, throw in a larger death count: add the character's CON to their maximum negative HP before death. Suddenly people with a heal skill make a difference again. Also, more drama. Oh no! Jack is bleeding out! We've got to get to him! All too often when someone dies, it's because they just went way over their damage capacity in one hit. Two hander hits the rogue for 20+ damage, and he only had 6 left. Chain lightning trap slaps the mage for 12d6, and he is fried instantly. Having a little more cushion on the other end helps to mitigate this. Also, you could increase the normal maximum for hero points, and allow PCs to earn them slightly more often - but of course, if they're not cautious, they may just blow them all on skill and attack rolls, then not have them to save their life. Also doesn't help if the mage gets jumped by like 4 dual wielding rogues who coup him when he drops. Avoid doing that too, heh.


I think most E6 games don't have resurrection (outside of epic magic of some kind). Of course, it helps that level 1-6 isn't really the "rocket launcher tag" range.

Dark Archive

Dang it, I thought for sure I spells Campaign right in the title... I wish there was a way to fix that... sighs.

I will say for those that have commented, thanks for the advise and great idea. I am especially thankful for Bodhizen's detailed response, and parts of what they have said are things I have actually considered.

On the bit about making sure that this decision talked about with the players, that is something I would make sure to do. Any houserule I make I will talk with my players before starting, at least before starting the next session. As is the advise of removing or at least increasing the rarity of Save or Die spells/abilities/exc.

@TGMaxMaxer
I was actually considering it to be a 'rule' much like it is in Fullmetal Alchemist, Tsubasa: Reservoir Chronicle, and xxxHolic... hopefully you know one of these series.

@Bodhizen
Again, great detail with your advise. I will likely be using much of your advise whole cloth as it were, since you have given such a solid writeup.

@Bjørn Røyrvik
I could bump it up a level or two, the big this is that I see Breath of Life being the magical equivalent of CPR. You make a good point involving Reincarnation though, so I will put it aside.

I may offer it as a gift/blessing of a deity in the case of having it that the character(s) involved are allowed to return be reborn as they are not as someone new some time later in the future.

@Aemesh
You suggestion could be helpful, though I would need to mess around a bit coming up mechanics if I were to use such. On your experience of a Walking Dead campaign... I admit I never was a fan of zombie apocalypse.


JonathonWilder,

I'm glad that my advise was so useful. A couple of points of clarification, which I'm sure that you've guessed, but I prefer to be explicit anyway.

With regard to resurrection rituals... They should be hours-long or days-long events, not just a "We're going to pop down to Cleric Bob's for a resurrection spell. Be back in 60 seconds...", and if they raise the character to undead status, the character should become an NPC with an alignment that matches the undead creature that they've been raised into. For example, if your level 8 neutral-good ranger requires resurrection, go ahead and bring her back as a chaotic-evil vampire bent on destroying the party for doing this to her. This always goes back to actions have consequences.

I think that the instant-death spells are fine as-is, but that's because they're either typically, "If you fail the save, you die. If you succeed, the spell has no effect." or they're "You take lots of damage, and it's probably going to kill you, but you get to make a saving throw to avoid some of the damage." Much of the time, the instant-death spells just fail, and there's not much difference between an 11th level witch casting slay living to deal 12d6+11 points of damage (3d6+11 if the save is successful; average 53 points of damage, 22 if the save is made) and an 11th level wizard casting fireball to deal 10d6 points of damage (5d6 if the save is successful; average 35 points of damage, 18 if the save is made), especially since slay living is three spell levels higher for the witch.

If you really feel strongly about taking out "instant death" spells, I'd instead propose a +1/2 character level to saves vs. instant death spells to represent the fact that "instant kill" spells are harder to pull off than other magics. In fact, you could just grant such a bonus versus necromantic magics, period. Honestly, I don't feel that this is necessary, but it's a route that you could go.

Best wishes!


Run an Eberron game. Dead being dead and not come back is (was, don't know 4e did to the setting) setting default. There are major religions built around that.

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@Bodhizen
You make good points, thanks. I was thinking that as a 'ritual' it would take much longer to cast, so what you offer is fine. On 'instant death' spells and effects you make a far point. I mentioned that because of the suggestion of another.

Edymnion wrote:
Run an Eberron game. Dead being dead and not come back is (was, don't know 4e did to the setting) setting default. There are major religions built around that.

An Eberron campaign would actually be an interesting consideration... especially since I found this Pathfinder conversion: https://sites.google.com/site/eberronpathfinder/


Make it easier to get KO'd and harder to die.

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Zhayne wrote:
Make it easier to get KO'd and harder to die.

You mean easier for my players to be knocked out but harder for them to die? Perhaps, though really for some opponents getting knocked out would lead to being killed. As such I would say making it easier to be KO'd is not very favorable if you want it to be harder to die.


The best way to do it really is just to be up-front about it.

Whatever you do, DO NOT MAKE IT A SURPRISE TO THE PLAYERS.

Just be up-front, tell them death is permanent, disallow resurrection and so forth, and make it clear that if they're attached to their characters they should focus on keeping those characters alive. And, yes, as they're dying, let them shine a bit. Let them make the deaths big.

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Inlaa wrote:
Whatever you do, DO NOT MAKE IT A SURPRISE TO THE PLAYERS.

This was the plan before even using the idea. On the yes, similar advise to what has been given.


It is easier to find players that like a certain type of game than to convince players they will like something they are against.

Sometimes we as GM's can really like an idea, but our players may not. If you have a steady group, and they really don't like the idea then you may have to accept that and not run the game.


It can also help if you frame the suggestion correctly.

When you're bringing the subject up, don't refer to it as perma-death, say something like "You guys ever play Diablo? Sure you did, everybody did. Fun game, but Hardcore mode was the best. Anybody could make it to max level on cupcake mode, but hardcore? Man, you knew you were dealing with a badass when you saw a max level hardcore player! Wanna run a game that way? Hardcore Pathfinder, where you die and you're dead!"

Aka, present it to the players as a challenge, not as a restriction, and they'll be far more likely to go with it.

Dark Archive

I have played Diablo myself though I would probably compare it to the shows that actually inspired the idea, that of Fullmetal Alchemist and Tsubasa Reservoir Chronicles.

Where the party adventure, seeing first hand the best and the worse of the world (and planes). Where they will fight evil and the desperate, the greedy and selfish, the foolish and the mad. Offer the idea that yes, there would be a challenge in playing in my campaign since their character can die and if they do it will be unchangeable without severe consequences.

What lengths will someone go into try and bring the dead back to life? Will you try to break the rules set by the gods and universe... or will you accept them and create the best, most epic adventure with the character you have? To keep them alive and if they do die give them a memorable death that will be remembered by everyone at the time?

This would be a very heavy of roleplaying idea, of embracing one's character and taking them as far as they can in a world where death is permanent.
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This is how I would try selling the idea.


Just be honest about it: You want to run a Fullmetal Alchemist campaign.


I'm surprised nobody mentioned this aspect, which to me is the best potential part..... (if someone mentioned it and I missed it, my bad):

This opens up the possibility for an Orpheus style adventure in the overall campaign. With no resurrection magic, the only way to bring someone back to life is to venture into the Underworld to fetch the soul back from the God of the Dead. Of course, there are astounding difficulties and dangers involved with this, because Death is a jealous God who doesn't wish to relinquish those who have entered his/her halls. The adventurers will have to face epic obstacles and tasks in order to rescue the soul, and the slightest mis-step could either seal the players in the realm of Death forever, or lose the soul they sought to retriever for all eternity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Orpheus#Death_of_Eurydice

There are other examples of attempts to bring back the dead in Greek mythology, too, but they pretty much all involve going to the Underworld to attempt to negotiate the return with Hades. Here's another link where you can see other examples of Greek mythology where Gods or Heroes went to the Underworld for various purposes (sometimes successfully bringing souls back to the land of the living):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Descent_to_the_underworld

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Interestingly enough, for a long time in the history of paper and dice rpgs, D+D and it's cousins stood out as unique examples where dead characters COULD come back.

Star Wars, Top Secret, Traveller, Call of Cthulhu, Dr. Who RPGs, the various licensed games such as Buffy, Angel, dead is DEAD, the permanent end of a character's story. If the rest of the RPG industry was able to survive on that modality, I see no reason why a d20 campaign can't be run the same way.

Of course this should be spelled out in advance to your players. Who will no doubt adopt a more cautious style of play. And this should also be reflected in the world as well, with perhaps more people, such as egotistic mages looking at undeath to avoid the Big Sleep, or whatever awaits them on the other side.


There is a 3.5 book on running dread horror campaigns...it has some suggestions about this topic...One I like is in order to bring back a life you must sacrifice a life...try doing that with a Paladin in the party...or worse for the paladin...would recommend keeping breath of life available because it is literally within seconds of death

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