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In addition to all of the above, the restriction against archetypes is arbitrary, almost to the point of rendering the comparison meaningless (because any real-world comparison would see the archetypes get used) and entirely favors the rogue, since the rogue basically loses nothing by the restriction and the investigator loses the empiricist, a significant loss of power. Trying to be good at "sleuthing" and good at combat makes both classes quite MAD, something that is only exacerbated by the use of the elite array for chargen (you can see the impact on my weird builds above); the empiricist reduces the MAD hugely, and would vastly increase the investigator's effectiveness in both combat and skills over the rogue.
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In addition to all of the above, the restriction against archetypes is arbitrary, almost to the point of rendering the comparison meaningless (because any real-world comparison would see the archetypes get used) and entirely favors the rogue, since the rogue basically loses nothing by the restriction and the investigator loses the empiricist, a significant loss of power. Trying to be good at "sleuthing" and good at combat makes both classes quite MAD, something that is only exacerbated by the use of the elite array for chargen (you can see the impact on my weird builds above); the empiricist reduces the MAD hugely, and would vastly increase the investigator's effectiveness in both combat and skills over the rogue.
I did not allow the ACG archetypes for reasons stated previously. Even then this comparison is fair since both classes have to operate under the same MAD conditions, thus the one with the best class features will end up shining through.
The ACG archetype section was horridly edited and contains many options that are straight "class+ no brainers" that horridly skew any sort of test. The Rogue was never lucky enough to get an archetype like Empiricist, Sacred Fist, Lore Warden, Qingong, Daring Champion (Swash +), Master Summoner, Sacred Servant, or Fated Champion, so why in a "fair" comparison should the Investigator get such an option? Yes a lot of those options aren't from ACG, but they are still examples of "bad archetype design" since they don't give an equal trade of features.
Also in a similar comparison between Fighters and Barbarians that I modeled this a bit after there were no archetypes used.
I don't see why no archetypes. Give both the best 'sleuthing' one and be done. The fact that the rogue one is lackluster is just another reason they aren't as good at 'sleuthing'. So for rogues, Investigator, Spy or Trapsmith. Wow, rogues really do suck for archetypes for this kind of thing.
Not gonna say Ninjas can influence a campaign as much as an Investigator, but if someone told me their Ninja does more damage than any Investigator I would probably believe them. Ninjas, assuming they aren't fighting "see invisibility" foes, are pretty scary on the damage department after level 10.
They also have that fun build where they throw like 5 Shurikens, each with sneak attack and 2 str damage.
@graystone
This is a comparison of base classes. Aside from reasons listed directly above your post I know a lot of posters would complain about Empiricist giving Investigators an unfair advantage.
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I don't see why no archetypes.
That's easy. Because there needs to be an agreed-upon base for comparison.
If you want to open another thread for investigator-with-archetypes vs. rogue-with-archetypes, feel free. Given that no one's really posted any builds or done any comparison in this thread, I doubt your thread will be very successful, either.
I admit to a certain amount of curiosity regarding the outcome of the question posed in this thread. I note in passing that only one person thinks that the rogue is even competitive, and that that person completely fails to provide any support for the belief,.... but at least it's possible that someone might be willing to address it.
I'm not interested in a discussion about how the question that isn't being answered is the wrong question and about how we should fail to answer a different question.
At what level can I assume to have access to an agile weapon? I'm planning on making a very in depth comparison and knowing when I can use agile will be important for build options.
To complicate matters, how would the inquisitor fair in this comparison? They feel pretty "sleuthy" to me.
@ Melk
There are a lot of classes and methods to take this question on and I know the Inquisitor can do well. I don't believe he'd actually overtake the Investigator on skills since he only gets uber Sense motive and intimidate, but he'd be a good competitor.
@Chess
standard WBL for levels 5 and 11
@Orfamay Quest
Shisumo did a good level 5 comparison last page. My judgement based on that is that at level 5 the Inquisitor is slightly better at skills and damage, but not so much so that the Rogue is invalidated.
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Not gonna say Ninjas can influence a campaign as much as an Investigator, but if someone told me their Ninja does more damage than any Investigator I would probably believe them. Ninjas, assuming they aren't fighting "see invisibility" foes, are pretty scary on the damage department after level 10.
They also have that fun build where they throw like 5 Shurikens, each with sneak attack and 2 str damage.
@graystone
This is a comparison of base classes. Aside from reasons listed directly above your post I know a lot of posters would complain about Empiricist giving Investigators an unfair advantage.
Now I kinda wanna try a ninja/empiricist comparison.
@Orfamay Quest
Shisumo did a good level 5 comparison last page. My judgement based on that is that at level 5 the Inquisitor is slightly better at skills and damage, but not so much so that the Rogue is invalidated.
It's only going to get worse as the levels go up. By the time you hit the 11th level comparison, the +5 irreproducible attack bonus is going to be very, very telling.
I presented what I feel is a pretty good combat Empiricist at lv3. If you wanted to make a ninja which compares to that, or you can make your own too if you wanted.
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At what level can I assume to have access to an agile weapon? I'm planning on making a very in depth comparison and knowing when I can use agile will be important for build options.
Wealth by level guidelines suggest no more than 25% of your wealth be spent on a single weapon. Agile is a +1 effect, so we're looking at about 8-9000 gp for an +1 Agile effect.
This suggests level 8 (for which WBL is 33,000 gp).
@graystone
This is a comparison of base classes. Aside from reasons listed directly above your post I know a lot of posters would complain about Empiricist giving Investigators an unfair advantage.
That's like trying to figure out if monks or warpriests are better at unarmed combat and not taking sacred fist into account, but whatever. I know personally, I see no reason to make a 'sleuth' based investigator and not take the archetype. IMO it's ignoring reality for theorycraft. The reality IS that the Investigator has an unfair advantage (with or without empiricist). Myself I feel the addition of all the bells and whistles makes for a better comparison.
That said, I guess you can do it without. I don't think it'll convince N N 959 of anything though.
@graystone
This is a comparison of base classes. Aside from reasons listed directly above your post I know a lot of posters would complain about Empiricist giving Investigators an unfair advantage.That's like trying to figure out if monks or warpriests are better at unarmed combat and not taking sacred fist into account, but whatever. I know personally, I see no reason to make a 'sleuth' based investigator and not take the archetype. IMO it's ignoring reality for theorycraft. The reality IS that the Investigator has an unfair advantage (with or without empiricist). Myself I feel the addition of all the bells and whistles makes for a better comparison.
That said, I guess you can do it without. I don't think it'll convince N N 959 of anything though.
Well are both Monks and Warpriests unarmored, unarmed, holy warriors?
Rogues and Investigators cover the exact same niche in their base class, so the comparison is valid. In fact 'sleuthing' is supposedly one of the main draws of the Investigator class.
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The reality IS that the Investigator has an unfair advantage (with or without empiricist). Myself I feel the addition of all the bells and whistles makes for a better comparison.
Well, if the bells and whistles are to the investigator's advantage, and the investigator has the advantage even without the bells and whistles, that's even more compelling an argument.
That said, I guess you can do it without. I don't think it'll convince N N 959 of anything though.
If the purpose of this thread is to convince N N 959 of something, don't bother. If the purpose of this thread is to establish a body of evidence for readers of this forum, that's much more appropriate and helpful.
The purpose of the thread is to be something we can link so that we don't get 2-3 page tangents. If everyone does their part correctly then any tangential arguments about Rogues and Investigators can be handled with just a link here.
"Why are you all assuming Investigator out rogues the rogue? Rogue can do X!"
"Here, read this thread and if you have a compelling argument post a build in it. Let's keep it out of this thread."
boom, bang, done.
Well are both Monks and Warpriests unarmored, unarmed, holy warriors?
They can be. That's kind of my point.
Rogues and Investigators cover the exact same niche in their base class, so the comparison is valid. In fact 'sleuthing' is supposedly one of the main draws of the Investigator class.
IMO 'sleuthing' is a main draw of the empiricist. Again, it's like looking for unarmored and unarmed characters and ONLY looking at the base classes. Sacred fist and monk fill the same niche just like empiricist and rogue.
I'm not really trying to change your mind, just saying that I don't find the comparison of base classes very useful when I KNOW that in any real life situation we'd be seeing an archetype. If you find it useful though, go for it.
Considering in my real life examples as a DM I banned "class+" archetypes, I don't think think your statement of "I KNOW that in any real life situation we'd be seeing an archetype" holds any water.
Plenty of DMs ban archetypes entirely too.
I'm not really trying to change your mind,
Well, I'm glad to hear that.
Now, will you please post twenty-five more posts that aren't trying to convince anyone of anything and aren't responsive to the OP?
Or is this my cue to post a guacamole recipe to this thread?
Considering in my real life examples as a DM I banned "class+" archetypes, I don't think think your statement of "I KNOW that in any real life situation we'd be seeing an archetype" holds any water.
Plenty of DMs ban archetypes entirely too.
That's cool, I've just never been in that situation. I should have said 'I KNOW that in any real life situation I'll be in, I'd be seeing an archetype'.
I'm not really trying to change your mind,Well, I'm glad to hear that.
Now, will you please post twenty-five more posts that aren't trying to convince anyone of anything and aren't responsive to the OP?
Or is this my cue to post a guacamole recipe to this thread?
Well thank you SO much for showing me what a post looks like that's responsive to the OP. :P
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If you are a sleuth the idea is to avoid a fight if possible, but you should be prepared to fight if you have to. Since I doubt the rogue can come out ahead I pushed the skills side more than the fighting side to see if he can out-skill(sleuth) the invesigator.
rogu
Male half-orc rogue 11
LN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init -1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +26
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 11, flat-footed 19 (+6 armor, +2 deflection, -1 Dex, +2 natural)
hp 69 (11d8+11)
Fort +9, Ref +9, Will +9
Defensive Abilities evasion, improved uncanny dodge, orc ferocity, trap sense +3
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft. (20 ft. in armor)
Melee +3 falchion +14/+9 (2d4+7/18-20) or
. . dagger +11/+6 (1d4+3/19-20) or
. . morningstar +11/+6 (1d8+3)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite shortbow +8/+3 (1d6+4/×3)
Special Attacks sneak attack +6d6
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Statistics
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Str 17, Dex 8, Con 12, Int 18, Wis 13, Cha 10
Base Atk +8; CMB +11; CMD 22
Feats Extra Rogue Talent[APG], Extra Rogue Talent[APG], Great Fortitude, Iron Will, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +4 (+0 to jump), Appraise +10, Bluff +17, Climb +5, Diplomacy +17, Disable Device +17, Disguise +17, Escape Artist +10, Intimidate +19, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +12, Knowledge (local) +18, Linguistics +18, Perception +26 (+30 to hear the details of a conversation or to find concealed or secret objects (including doors and traps)), Sense Motive +15, Sleight of Hand +5, Stealth +20, Swim +4; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Common, Dark Folk, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Gnoll, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Kelish, Orc, Osiriani, Thassilonian, Tien, Undercommon, Varisian
SQ orc blood, rogue talents (canny observer, charmer, fast picks, follow clues, hard minded, honeyed words, quick disguise), trapfinding +5
Combat Gear caltrops; Other Gear +2 shadow, improved mithral chain shirt, +1 adaptive composite shortbow (+3 Str), +3 falchion, arrows (40), blunt arrows (40), dagger, morningstar, amulet of natural armor +2, belt of giant strength +2, circlet of persuasion, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, ring of protection +2, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, chalk (10), flint and steel, grappling hook, hemp rope (50 ft.), masterwork thieves' tools, mess kit, mirror, piton (10), pot, soap, thieves' tools, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, gold 9637, 1,137 gp
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Special Abilities
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Canny Observer (Ex) +4 Perception to overhear conversations or find concealed or secret objects.
Charmer (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Diplomacy check and take the better result.
Circlet of persuasion +3 competence bonus to CHA-based checks (skills already included).
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Evasion (Ex) If you succeed at a Reflex save for half damage, you take none instead.
Fast Picks (Ex) Can use Disable Device to open a lock as a standard (rather than full-rd) action.
Follow Clues (Ex) Can follow tracks using Perception (rather than survival).
Hard Minded (Ex) A rogue with this talent is hard to fool with mind-affecting effects. At the start of her turn, if she is still subject to any mind-affecting spells or effects, she can make a Will saving throw with a standard DC for the effect's level, and if she su
Honeyed Words (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Bluff check and take the better result.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Lv >=15) (Ex) Retain DEX bonus to AC when flat-footed. You cannot be flanked unless the attacker is Level 15+.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) If brought below 0 Hp, can act as though disabled for 1 rd.
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Quick Disguise (Ex) Disguise checks take less time.
Sneak Attack +6d6 Attacks deal extra dam if flank foe or if foe is flat-footed.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
Rogue speaks a lot of languages
The rogue talents chosen are there to make Rogu better at skills, which to me is different than just having more skills. As an example honey-eyed words allows for 2 rolls on a bluff check 3/day.
No sneak attack no power attack 10.35
Power attack no sneak attack 10.76
Power attack no sneak attack vs DR <---not worth calculating
Flank assumed for sneak attack
Sneak attack, no power attack 33.06
Sneak attack, no power attack vs DR 5 28.31
Sneak attack and power attack 29.35
Sneak attack and power attack vs DR 5 26.10
This is not good, but let's assume the best case scenario
Haste grants 56.44(59.16 if I do not power attack)
I will just replace it with weapon focus since it does not seem to be helping. Now I am at 64.38
-------------------------------------------------------
My first ever investigator. I hope I don't have to choose any spells. Yeah, I have never read the rules in detail for this class before. <Goes away to read the class description>
A couple of points
I felt like the investigator was ahead before I even chose extracts but with the extracts in place to boost skills I think the investigator is clearly ahead. With studied combat in place the investigator should be ahead in damage also.
Igor the Invesigator
Half-orc investigator 11 (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 30)
LN Medium humanoid (human, orc)
Init +1; Senses darkvision 60 ft.; Perception +25
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Defense
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AC 19, touch 12, flat-footed 18 (+6 armor, +1 deflection, +1 Dex, +1 natural)
hp 69 (11d8+11)
Fort +9, Ref +11, Will +10
Defensive Abilities orc ferocity, trap sense +3; Immune poison
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Offense
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Speed 30 ft.
Melee +3 falchion +15/+10 (2d4+9/18-20) or
. . dagger +12/+7 (1d4+4/19-20) or
. . morningstar +12/+7 (1d8+4)
Ranged +1 adaptive composite shortbow +10/+5 (1d6+5/×3)
Special Attacks studied combat (+5, 4 rounds), studied strike +4d6
Investigator Extracts Prepared (CL 11th; concentration +15)
. . 4th—echolocation[UM], freedom of movement, restoration
. . 3rd—fly (2), haste (2), tongues
. . 2nd—barkskin (2), investigative mind[ACG], invisibility (2)
. . 1st—comprehend languages, cure light wounds, disguise self, identify, long arm[ACG] (2)
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Statistics
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Str 18, Dex 13, Con 12, Int 19, Wis 10, Cha 8
Base Atk +8; CMB +12; CMD 24
Feats Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Extra Investigator Talent[ACG], Furious Focus[APG], Great Fortitude, Power Attack, Skill Focus (Perception)
Skills Acrobatics +5, Appraise +8, Bluff +16, Climb +8, Diplomacy +16, Disable Device +22, Disguise +16, Intimidate +4, Knowledge (arcana) +11, Knowledge (dungeoneering) +8, Knowledge (engineering) +8, Knowledge (geography) +8, Knowledge (history) +8, Knowledge (local) +12, Knowledge (nature) +8, Knowledge (nobility) +9, Knowledge (planes) +8, Knowledge (religion) +8, Linguistics +18, Perception +25 (+29 to hear the details of a conversation or to find concealed or secret objects (including doors and traps)), Sense Motive +14, Sleight of Hand +5, Spellcraft +18, Stealth +25; Racial Modifiers +2 Intimidate
Languages Abyssal, Celestial, Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Elven, Giant, Gnome, Goblin, Halfling, Infernal, Orc, Polyglot, Sylvan, Tengu, Tien, Varisian
SQ alchemy (alchemy crafting +11), inspiration (9/day), investigator talents (canny observer, charmer, coax information, eidetic recollection, expanded inspiration, honeyed words, perceptive tracking), keen recollection, orc blood, poison lore, swift alchemy, trapfinding +5
Other Gear +2 shadow, improved mithral chain shirt, +1 adaptive composite shortbow (+2 Str), +3 falchion, arrows (40), blunt arrows (40), dagger, morningstar, amulet of natural armor +1, belt of giant strength +2, circlet of persuasion, cloak of resistance +3, eyes of the eagle, handy haversack, headband of vast intelligence +2, ring of protection +1, alchemy crafting kit, backpack, bedroll, belt pouch, flint and steel, ink, black, inkpen, masterwork thieves' tools, mess kit, pot, soap, torch (10), trail rations (5), waterskin, 9,844 gp
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Special Abilities
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Alchemy +11 (Su) +11 to Craft (Alchemy) to create alchemical items, can Id potions by touch.
Canny Observer (Ex) +4 Perception to overhear conversations or find concealed or secret objects.
Charmer (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Diplomacy check and take the better result.
Circlet of persuasion +3 competence bonus to CHA-based checks (skills already included).
Coax information (Ex) Can use Bluff or Diplomacy to force an opponent to act friendly.
Darkvision (60 feet) You can see in the dark (black and white vision only).
Eidetic Recollection (Su) Can always take 10 on Knowledge checks, use 1 inspiration to take 20.
Expanded Inspiration (Ex) Free Inspiration on Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive (if trained).
Furious Focus If you are wielding a weapon in two hands, ignore the penalty for your first attack of each turn.
Honeyed Words (3/day) (Ex) Can roll 2d20 for Bluff check and take the better result.
Immunity to Poison You are immune to poison.
Inspiration (+1d6, 9/day) (Ex) Use 1 point, +1d6 to trained skill or ability check. Use 2 points, to add to attack or save.
Orc Blood Half-orcs count as both humans and orcs for any effect related to race.
Orc Ferocity (1/day) If brought below 0 Hp, can act as though disabled for 1 rd.
Perceptive Tracking (Ex) Can use Perception to find and follow tracks.
Poison Lore (Ex) After 1 min can use Know to ID poisons, 1 min more to neutralize with Craft (alchemy).
Power Attack -3/+6 You can subtract from your attack roll to add to your damage.
Studied Combat (+5, 4 rounds) (Ex) As a move action, study foe to gain bonus to att & dam for duration or until use studied strike.
Studied Strike +4d6 (Ex) As a free action on a melee hit, end studied combat vs. foe to add precision dam.
Swift Alchemy (Ex) You can construct alchemical items in half the normal time.
Trap Sense +3 (Ex) +3 bonus on reflex saves and AC against traps.
Trapfinding +5 Gain a bonus to find or disable traps, including magical ones.
No studied strike no power attack 13.69 Investigator is ahead
Power attack no studied strike 18.52 Investigator is ahead
Power attack no studied strike vs DR 5<---not worth calculating
For purpose of studied strike I will assume studied combat was in play for the first attack, and then turned off for all other attacks in that round
studied strike, no power attack 31.61 Investigator is ahead. It really makes no sense to give a rogue a free flank in these contest because in a game everyone should be trying to flank anyway, but even with the flank the rogue is ahead here by 2 points since the investigator was only pushed to 31.92
studied strike, no power attack vs DR 5 25.57
studied strike and power attack 36.41 Investigator is ahead
studied strike and power attack vs DR 5 31.23 Investigator is better against DR 5 than a rogue is without facing DR.
best case scenario--> flanking, haste(can give himself haste), both added 72.81
edit: Igor also has about 9000 gp left and I did not purchase any extracts to add to the book because they were not needed. I just took the ones I got automatically except for Freedom of Movement and Greater Invis. I also for to pay for them so assume I am a little poorer than my 9000+ gp suggest.
9844gp to be exact
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And people who point out the rogue's inferiority will be accused of "hating" Rogues.
It's more like the opposite. Let's say that those who try to claim the Rogue is as good as the Investigator succeed in convincing whoever (PF devs, GM's, PFS, whoever) that in fact they are.
They'll only succeed at convincing those not to give Rogues an edge in design or house rules to balance their weakness.
I read somewhere that PF Unchained will give rogues full BAB. That won't make them equal to Investigators if done, but it would make things a lot closer. Combined with improving Rogue Talents, it could make them equal. But if you "win" the argument and convince everyone that Rogues are good enough now, you'd prevent that from happening or convince GM's to house rule it out.
I like the flavor of the Rogue plenty (not as good at straight up combat, but outwits opponents to defeat them). It's just the case, right now, that to get that flavor-- the same types of abilities-- but be worthwhile overall, you're better off as an Investigator.
That book is supposed to come out in April. It is almost February. Most likely it is already being printed or about to be printed.
Even if the rogue is shown to be on par which I doubt will happen the rogue is getting some help finally. :)
At what level can I assume to have access to an agile weapon? I'm planning on making a very in depth comparison and knowing when I can use agile will be important for build options.
I would say when the price of the weapon takes up about 1/3 of your WBL or less.
edit: Mr. Quest suggest 25% which is also fair, and probably more reasonable assuming you adventure starting from level one instead of coming in at a certain level.
@wraithstrike
Investigator still better even while using their trap class feature instead of just studied combat.
Lol
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@wraithstrike
Investigator still better even while using their trap class feature instead of just studied combat.
Lol
I was tempted to not use studied strike just to keep the attack bonus up. Well since I have time. I will run the "best conditions" without the precision damage and see what I get. :)
60.84 for the investigator even without precision damage. So this means that when going up against some creature that is immune to precision damage or that can't be targeted properly the investigator can still do some damage. If I take away the rogue's sneak attack in the same situation I get 25.53 for the rogue.
I guess this also shows that the rogue is too dependent on sneak attack, and that a combination of a "to hit" bonus, and sneak attack would have been better, even if it was less sneak attack dice.
edit: I really did not like how using the precision damage turns off the "to hit" bonus for the investigator.
@Wraith
It looks to me like your build is always better at combat and needs inspiration or buffing extracts to compete with the Rogue in skills.
Would you be in agreement with that assessment?
@Wraith
It looks to me like your build is always better at combat and needs inspiration or buffing extracts to compete with the Rogue in skills.Would you be in agreement with that assessment?
Diplomacy, Heal, Perception, Profession, Sense Motive, Knowledge, Linguistics, or Spellcraft without spending any points. The question should be 'does it compete with the rogue without spending points of inspiration or buffs.
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@Wraith
It looks to me like your build is always better at combat and needs inspiration or buffing extracts to compete with the Rogue in skills.Would you be in agreement with that assessment?
The inspiration is a class feature just like the rogue talents are that make skills better. That allow the +X to be lower slightly, but still makes the investigator at least equal.
As an example the rogue has +1 on diplomacy and bluff, but the inspiration will give an average of about 3.5 per roll. The investigator can do this 9 times per day if needed. I doubt 9 uses will be needed.
For intimidate the rogue has a +19, but the investigator uses bluff or diplomacy to get people to act friendly toward him. I took the points I would have put into intimidation, and used them to spread around other skills. The investigator is ahead in knowledges and those even have free inspiration uses, so they don't even eat into my 9/day.
The inspiration also has the rogue behind again in linguistics due to free uses despite having an +18 just like the investigator.
The rogue is one better in perception, and sense motive. The investigator is ahead by +5 in stealth.
Recap:
The rogue is +1 better in social skills(not including intimidation) before inspiration or any extracts.
The rogue flat out loses in knowledges.
The rogue is out with regard to linguistics also. Yeah the bonus is the same, but the investigator gets that 1d6 every time with no cost.
The rogue is +1 better in perception and sense motive before inspiration or any extracts.
The investigator has a +5 in stealth
The investigator still has almost 10000 gp. He can easily erase the +1 advantage in the wisdom or charisma based skills. He won't pull far ahead, but pulling even can be done with an ioun stone.
I would say the investigator has the advantage in skills also.
PS: I did not think things were that close in skills until you brought it up.
edit: For the skills where inspiration is free I would say there should be no complaint since it is not a limited ability in those areas. No, I am not accusing anyone of complaining, and I also realize I misread the question the first. The race is very close without inspiration's limited uses in some areas.
(...)edit: I really did not like how using the precision damage turns off the "to hit" bonus for the investigator.
While I might be mistaken, I was under the impression that the investigator still gets his to hit bonus against creatures immune to precision damage? The to-hit bonus from Studied Combat is an Insight bonus and not specifically called out to be Precision based the way studied combat damage is.
(...)edit: I really did not like how using the precision damage turns off the "to hit" bonus for the investigator.While I might be mistaken, I was under the impression that the investigator still gets his to hit bonus against creatures immune to precision damage? The to-hit bonus from Studied Combat is an Insight bonus and not specifically called out to be Precision based the way studied combat damage is.
What I was talking about was the fact that if you use the precision damage the "to hit" bonus turns off.
What I was talking about was the fact that if you use the precision damage the "to hit" bonus turns off.
Ah, I see!
My round typically goes:
Swift action to Study Target
Full ranged attack. If the target dies before my volley is complete I sprinkle some shots on other targets (without Studied Combat bonus).
If the target is still alive when I fire my final shot but I suspect he's at low health I'll throw in Studied Strike to try and finish him off, or to leave him as easy pickings for the rest of my party.
Next round I'll study another target and repeat.
Conversely if the target seems durable enough to stay alive through multiple volleys I'll save Studied Strike till Studied Combat runs out, or if the fight is going badly I'll use Studied Strike on the final attack each round and burn Inspiration to re-apply Studied Combat.
The one area I find the Investigator struggles a little is in "minion"-style fights with lots of low-level mooks. Since he can only apply Study target once while making full attacks, if you're fighting numerous light-weights odds are most of your attacks will be made without the Studied Combat bonus. That said, it's hardly a big problem.
What I was talking about was the fact that if you use the precision damage the "to hit" bonus turns off.Ah, I see!
My round typically goes:
Swift action to Study Target
Full ranged attack. If the target dies before my volley is complete I sprinkle some shots on other targets (without Studied Combat bonus).
If the target is still alive when I fire my final shot but I suspect he's at low health I'll throw in Studied Strike to try and finish him off, or to leave him as easy pickings for the rest of my party.
Next round I'll study another target and repeat.Conversely if the target seems durable enough to stay alive through multiple volleys I'll save Studied Strike till Studied Combat runs out, or if the fight is going badly I'll use Studied Strike on the final attack each round and burn Inspiration to re-apply Studied Combat.
The one area I find the Investigator struggles a little is in "minion"-style fights with lots of low-level mooks. Since he can only apply Study target once while making full attacks, if you're fighting numerous light-weights odds are most of your attacks will be made without the Studied Combat bonus. That said, it's hardly a big problem.
I first thought it would be better to only use the precision damage on the last attack, but after I ran the numbers it seems to give enough of a damage boost that if you land it on the first attack your average damage will make up for the loss in accuracy.
I do agree that against a sturdy opponent it could be better to not use the precision damage, since it takes a move action to get it back. I would just wait until the last round
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The rogue is +1 better in social skills(not including intimidation) before inspiration or any extracts.
The rogue flat out loses in knowledges.
The rogue is out with regard to linguistics also. Yeah the bonus is the same, but the investigator gets that 1d6 every time with no cost.
The rogue is +1 better in perception and sense motive before inspiration or any extracts.
Note that the investigator gets a free (and therefore automatic) use of inspiration on Diplomacy, Perception and Sense Motive as well - and to be honest, I'd give serious thought to dropping eidetic recollection in favor of underworld inspiration to add Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand and Stealth to the list also. That means the investigator is hands-down equal (1/6 of the time) or better (5/6 of the time) on all those skills also.
Note that the investigator gets a free (and therefore automatic) use of inspiration on Diplomacy, Perception and Sense Motive as well - and to be honest, I'd give serious thought to dropping eidetic recollection in favor of underworld inspiration to add Bluff, Disable Device, Disguise, Sleight of Hand and Stealth to the list also. That means the investigator is hands-down equal (1/6 of the time) or better (5/6 of the time) on all those skills also.The rogue is +1 better in social skills(not including intimidation) before inspiration or any extracts.
The rogue flat out loses in knowledges.
The rogue is out with regard to linguistics also. Yeah the bonus is the same, but the investigator gets that 1d6 every time with no cost.
The rogue is +1 better in perception and sense motive before inspiration or any extracts.
I missed that one. In that case the investigator is ahead on perception and sense motive also. That leaves the rogue with only the charisma based skills by a slim margin*, assuming I don't pull inspiration out.
I think this is enough to put the investigator ahead, and I don't want to keep changing the build because the purpose was to avoid continually changing builds. I did not even have to put much effort into this. I am sure I would do better if I had to do it again.
*That assumes I can't find some combination of extracts and inspiration to pull ahead now, but I don't think it's needed.
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Nah Wraith ya did good.
Shisumo did a great level 5 comparison and you did a great level 11 comparison.
This is important because a lot of peoples games end before even hitting level 10, heck level 5 might be just about the end of a players adventuring career.
In PFS you get up to level 12ish, so the level 11 comparison shows just how good a first time built investigator is compared to a Rogue.
I can only imagine the gap grows wider by 20.
BTW theres a chest wondrous item that keeps your mutagen from decreasing your mental stats.
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Nah Wraith ya did good.
Shisumo did a great level 5 comparison and you did a great level 11 comparison.
This is important because a lot of peoples games end before even hitting level 10, heck level 5 might be just about the end of a players adventuring career.
In PFS you get up to level 12ish, so the level 11 comparison shows just how good a first time built investigator is compared to a Rogue.
I can only imagine the gap grows wider by 20.
BTW theres a chest wondrous item that keeps your mutagen from decreasing your mental stats.
I did not know the investigator got mutagens. I thought they only got extracts. I didn't see Alchemist Discovery, and it is the first one listed.
I see it now. I might try one of these in a real game now.
Yeah, I was surprised to see the offensive punch an Investigator can achieve. If it weren't for the huge list of third party classes I wanna run I'd heavily consider an Investigator.
So far I've found the investigator incredibly fun, but I have to note that my character joined a party already in play so I did not experience the early levels. I would expect levels 1-3 to be less than thrilling, but it really picks up steam with Studied Combat.
One word of warning, the complete absence of bonus feats makes a complicated fighting style hard to support early on. Unless you know it will be a long-term campaign I'd go with a two-hander or maybe Fencing Grace. :)
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Inspired Blade dip for free dex to hit/damage would go pretty well with the Int focus. Obviously keeps you in the dreaded pre-Studied Combat level range for longer, but what can you do?
Inspired Blade dip for free dex to hit/damage would go pretty well with the Int focus. Obviously keeps you in the dreaded pre-Studied Combat level range for longer, but what can you do?
One of my players did just this in our Emerald Spire campaign, one level dip in Inspired Blade paired with Empiricist Investigator. The character's been doing well so far.
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Inspired Blade dip for free dex to hit/damage would go pretty well with the Int focus. Obviously keeps you in the dreaded pre-Studied Combat level range for longer, but what can you do?One of my players did just this in our Emerald Spire campaign, one level dip in Inspired Blade paired with Empiricist Investigator. The character's been doing well so far.
It really exacerbates the ever popular Charisma dump. They actually get +1 panache despite a negative mod to it because of the "(minimum 1)" clause. C'est la vie.
So far I've found the investigator incredibly fun, but I have to note that my character joined a party already in play so I did not experience the early levels. I would expect levels 1-3 to be less than thrilling, but it really picks up steam with Studied Combat.
One word of warning, the complete absence of bonus feats makes a complicated fighting style hard to support early on. Unless you know it will be a long-term campaign I'd go with a two-hander or maybe Fencing Grace. :)
That is why I avoided TWF'ing. Too many feats, and not enough slots.
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OH charisma, the stat that is usually a 7 or a top stat.
It really exacerbates the ever popular Charisma dump. They actually get +1 panache despite a negative mod to it because of the "(minimum 1)" clause. C'est la vie.
That's a nice catch!
I don't think my investigator/swashbuckler friend noticed that, I'll make sure to point it out to him. Thanks!
Okay, this is a weird question (and maybe valid for another thread), but how would a rogue fair in an NPC-based environment? Say, with a warrior, adept, and aristocrat?
I'd imagine it'd be comparatively and demonstrably stronger, and quite significantly so... but I'm not entirely sure, given the warrior's full BAB and the adept's access to spells, not to mention the general prevalence of higher will saves which kind of seem usually more important to negate character-ending abilities than a high reflex.
EDIT: you know what? I made this a new thread.
Okay, this is a weird question (and maybe valid for another thread), but how would a rogue fair in an NPC-based environment? Say, with a warrior, adept, and aristocrat?
I'd imagine it'd be comparatively and demonstrably stronger, and quite significantly so... but I'm not entirely sure, given the warrior's full BAB and the adept's access to spells, not to mention the general prevalence of higher will saves which kind of seem usually more important to negate character-ending abilities than a high reflex.
I think they will be on par with the adept( from level 8)a bit better than the warrior and a bit more ahead of the expert and of cause the commoners will suck as always.
This is if the NPC classes have stats that are comparable to the rogue in question.Edit: but who would want to play in that game?
Edit2: i moved my next post to the other thread.
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Okay, but why would they be on par? How would that suss out? The adepts have a pretty narrow spell list?
Anyway, see my above post - this discussion should continue there, I think.
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One word of warning, the complete absence of bonus feats makes a complicated fighting style hard to support early on. Unless you know it will be a long-term campaign I'd go with a two-hander or maybe Fencing Grace. :)
Yeah, the actual intended-for-PFS investigator I've got written up somewhere in my hard drive is a half-orc, likely for the same reason wraith made his samples half-orcs: falchion proficiency is hard to ignore, especially when it comes with darkvision to boot...