It seems to me that the Mythic Fighter vs. Wizard thread contained the kernel of a good idea, but was derailed by the "who would win in a fight" focus.
My question is: As a campaign approaches high levels, would it make sense for a GM to give martial characters (and only martial characters) mythic tiers?
The goal would be to mitigate the caster/non-caster discrepancy that shows up in high levels, where the fighter in the party sometimes feels like they aren't contributing relative to the wizard or the cleric. Perhaps if, say, the fighter was getting roughly one mythic tier per level starting at 11th level, it would help them to keep up.
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It would also make me upset as a magic user because there's quite a fee mythic path abilities I'd love to have (sustenance, no spellbook, no sleeping, immunity to poisons/diseases, immortality as in long lived not resurrecting). If the fighter/ranger/whatever was getting mythic tiers and beefing up their combat ability beyond anything I could do and I couldn't even take them for things that wouldn't impact the game that much it would drive a wedge between the party. Especially since at higher levels it's TPK = I'm dead but the fighter comes back to life 24 hours later due to base mythic abilities.
That's...a difficult question.
Mythic Tiers fluctuate wildly in value depending on what you pick.
A Tier 3 Fighter with Adamantine Mind is exponentially more powerful than a T3 Fighter with Mythic Weapon Focus.
I think if that's the effect you're going for, you should make many Mythic Feats and options options available to everyone as they level (gaining "phantom tiers" that only grant the Feats/Path Abilities and not other benefits), and weed out some of the more ludicrous ones to keep some semblance of balance.
Stuff like Mythic Weapon Finesse and Uncanny Grapple should be options that don't require Mythic characters, just high level ones.
On the other hand, things like Divine Metamastery...better left off the table. But on the flipside, there are many Archmage and Hierophant abilities that are useful but not gamebreaking. Stuff like Faith's Reach, or Flash of Omniscience are thematic, and useful, but not overwhelming.
Mind you no matter what you do it'll result in a much higher power level, but by trimming out the base Tier benefits you've trimmed it down to a more manageable level (and lessened the disparity between different paths as well. Sudden Strike vs Wild Arcana just makes me sad).
You get epic abilities that benefit martials greatly, without stuff like 'Well now the whole party is unkillable what do".
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It would also make me upset as a magic user because there's quite a fee mythic path abilities I'd love to have (sustenance, no spellbook, no sleeping, immunity to poisons/diseases, immortality as in long lived not resurrecting). If the fighter/ranger/whatever was getting mythic tiers and beefing up their combat ability beyond anything I could do and I couldn't even take them for things that wouldn't impact the game that much it would drive a wedge between the party. Especially since at higher levels it's TPK = I'm dead but the fighter comes back to life 24 hours later due to base mythic abilities.
And this is exactly why martials can't have nice things.
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It would also make me upset as a magic user because there's quite a fee mythic path abilities I'd love to have (sustenance, no spellbook, no sleeping, immunity to poisons/diseases, immortality as in long lived not resurrecting). If the fighter/ranger/whatever was getting mythic tiers and beefing up their combat ability beyond anything I could do and I couldn't even take them for things that wouldn't impact the game that much it would drive a wedge between the party. Especially since at higher levels it's TPK = I'm dead but the fighter comes back to life 24 hours later due to base mythic abilities.And this is exactly why martials can't have nice things.
Hey I'd be perfectly happy if the rogue got mythic weapon finesse and I got longevity. I just object to the martial getting boosts to initiative, damage, saves, ability scores, special abilities and a get out of death free card while I get nothing.
That's just the thing though, you're getting nothing because you already have 9th level spells. It doesn't do the Fighter any good to pump him up with mythic abilities if you're just going to give the Wizard mythic abilities as well.
Also LOL at mythic weapon finesse being equitable to longevity.
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That's just the thing though, you're getting nothing because you already have 9th level spells. It doesn't do the Fighter any good to pump him up with mythic abilities if you're just going to give the Wizard mythic abilities as well.
Also LOL at mythic weapon finesse being equitable to longevity.
That's rather the point I get to not age and the rogue gets to use their dex for damage as well as attack. Seriously you think my having access to 9th level spells = depending on how many tiers you give up to an extra 5 mythic feats, +10 to initiate, the ability to affect dice rolls, path abilities, auto-ressurection, auto-stabilization, an extra 10 ability points, the ability to add to your checks, multiple standard actions a round plus any casting I do for him on top of any casting abilities he's picked up through path abilities. That's not giving the fighter nice things that's screwing the caster over. As I and others said there's a lot of mythic stuff you can make available to martials to buff then up to comparable power or just to give them more options. You start giving one party member mythic ranks and not others and that's going to drive a wedge in and make the casters pretty much useless. Fighter goes first, enemy is dead, fighter makes skill check due to mythic surge, fighter decides to be a jerk and makes caster reroll something till they fail so he can take the glory.
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That's just the thing though, you're getting nothing because you already have 9th level spells. It doesn't do the Fighter any good to pump him up with mythic abilities if you're just going to give the Wizard mythic abilities as well.
Also LOL at mythic weapon finesse being equitable to longevity.
For the span of the game, it is. Longevity is actually useless in 99.999999% of games. When was the last time you played a game that enough in-game time passed to age your character, much less age enough to die of old age?
Yeah, Longevity taken in campaign is usually a waste.
It's a lot better if you're bringing a character into the campaign who is already in the venerable category (and a even better if you can bring them in with a tier -> then its essentially +3 to all mental stats for a single ability, with no amount of time struggling to get a tier)
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Yeah, Longevity taken in campaign is usually a waste.
It's a lot better if you're bringing a character into the campaign who is already in the venerable category (and a even better if you can bring them in with a tier -> then its essentially +3 to all mental stats for a single ability, with no amount of time struggling to get a tier)
Mechanically sure buy thematically I love the immortal wizard and that's what I'm saying even in mythic there are options that are either no gain or merely move things to even playing field. If fighter classes get all the massive benefits of mythic and can't even take longevity or mythic sustenance (freeing up a ring slot it isn't give fighters nice things it's swing the balance so my fighter completely outshines the wizard and can cast a number of spells, and. Sneak better than the theif etc, etc.
Yeah, I am also completely against the idea that any single individual or group should be treated differently than others, in regard to options available, based on their choices of play-style alone.
I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.
I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.
Oh, it exist. It is just not normally as prevalent in most games as it could be because most GM's handle it well enough.
I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.
The more system mastery a caster has the less likely the GM is able to create challenge at high level that both martials and caster can participate in. This isn't a theory. It's something that happens in play.
I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.
The games I have been in where caster vs martial problem didn't exist were ones where no one but my fighter knew how to optimize.
I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.The more system mastery a caster has the less likely the GM is able to create challenge at high level that both martials and caster can participate in. This isn't a theory. It's something that happens in play.
Maybe in your play, in my experience i have never noticed a problem. I have seen players bring master summoners and specd out wizards to the table right along side sword and board fighters. I made encounters such that they challenged everybody and every player contributed in some meaningful way. So I will say again, the problem of casters vs martials only exists in poorly made encounters, if your DM knows what they are doing it does not matter.
Maybe in your play, in my experience i have never noticed a problem. I have seen players bring master summoners and specd out wizards to the table right along side sword and board fighters. I made encounters such that they challenged everybody and every player contributed in some meaningful way. So I will say again, the problem of casters vs martials only exists in poorly made encounters, if your DM knows what they are doing it does not matter.I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.The more system mastery a caster has the less likely the GM is able to create challenge at high level that both martials and caster can participate in. This isn't a theory. It's something that happens in play.
The more accurate conclusion to draw is that your Master Summoners and Wizards do not possess very high levels of system mastery. Because there is no "well-made" encounter where a caster with high system mastery and a martial can contribute. That martial is going to be Mazed out of the Fight on the first round. Guaranteed.
If you've got a bunch of martial PCs their players are likely to feel OK about their performance in the game. If you've got one Fighter in a party of full casters and he or she is starting to feel depressed about being pointless after a while maybe making that Fighter the mythic hero who will fulfill some prophecy or claim some throne could be a good remedy. It seems kind of like giving the Fighter a really great magic weapon, only you make it a story about the character instead of a story about the cool item the character found (though you could of course do both...)
The important thing would probably be to make sure that you're not giving somebody new abilities which allow them to outshine other PCs in their own areas of expertise. I doubt that a few mythic tiers would result in a Fighter outcasting or otherwise outclassing Wizards and Summoners.
The more accurate conclusion to draw is that your Master Summoners and Wizards do not possess very high levels of system mastery. Because there is no "well-made" encounter where a caster with high system mastery and a martial can contribute. That martial is going to be Mazed out of the Fight on the first round. Guaranteed.Maybe in your play, in my experience i have never noticed a problem. I have seen players bring master summoners and specd out wizards to the table right along side sword and board fighters. I made encounters such that they challenged everybody and every player contributed in some meaningful way. So I will say again, the problem of casters vs martials only exists in poorly made encounters, if your DM knows what they are doing it does not matter.I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.The more system mastery a caster has the less likely the GM is able to create challenge at high level that both martials and caster can participate in. This isn't a theory. It's something that happens in play.
I have made encounters that say cannot exist. The problem of casters vs martials only exists if you let it.
I have made encounters that say cannot exist. The problem of casters vs martials only exists if you let it.The more accurate conclusion to draw is that your Master Summoners and Wizards do not possess very high levels of system mastery. Because there is no "well-made" encounter where a caster with high system mastery and a martial can contribute. That martial is going to be Mazed out of the Fight on the first round. Guaranteed.Maybe in your play, in my experience i have never noticed a problem. I have seen players bring master summoners and specd out wizards to the table right along side sword and board fighters. I made encounters such that they challenged everybody and every player contributed in some meaningful way. So I will say again, the problem of casters vs martials only exists in poorly made encounters, if your DM knows what they are doing it does not matter.I am going to agree with senko, You do not need to do anything to fighters or rogues to make them better. The martial vs caster problem is just a thing on forums and found only in really poorly made games. Next time you are DMing a game, sit down with the players character sheets and design a fight around them such that it challenges everybody. If you do this you find the martial vs caster problem does not really exist.The more system mastery a caster has the less likely the GM is able to create challenge at high level that both martials and caster can participate in. This isn't a theory. It's something that happens in play.
I'm going to need some stats on your caster players. Because I think it's much more likely they lack system mastery. What are their usual Spell Perfection spells?
Give us an example then.
Lay out one of these encounters, in full.
Let's figure your standard Barbarian, a TWF Rogue, a Master Summoner, and a Blockbuster Wizard. Level... oh, let's go for broke and say 17.
I predict that this won't happen.
I predict that this won't happen.Give us an example then.
Lay out one of these encounters, in full.
Let's figure your standard Barbarian, a TWF Rogue, a Master Summoner, and a Blockbuster Wizard. Level... oh, let's go for broke and say 17.
I'll second your prediction.
I don't see why giving the Fighter or Rogue some extra powers wouldn't be just as valid a way to account for a difference in power levels as designing mysterious special encounters which ensure that every PC can feel useful.
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I don't see why giving the Fighter or Rogue some extra powers wouldn't be just as valid a way to account for a difference in power levels as designing mysterious special encounters which ensure that every PC can feel useful.
Because there's a difference between extra powers and mythic powers. Even a few tiers makes a huge difference to what they're capable of. Like I said I don't have a problem with the fighter classes being beefed up a little to get more on par if there's a discrepancy (never been able to play a high level game and firmly opposed to nerfing) but mythic is not the answer because it gives too big a power to the fighter and shifts the balance markedly in the other way. Its 4:37 am here so lets look at what a fighter would get for 3 mythic tiers.
1) Hard to kill: Autostabilize if at 0 or below and don't die till double your con in negatives.
2) Expend one use of mythic power to add +1d6 surge to any D20 roll AFTER the result is revealed.
3) 5 mythic power to charge abilities.
4) Add tier to intitive checks +3 and as a free action can spend 1 mythic power to take another standard action (can't be a spell).
5) Restored to full hitpoints after 8 hours of rest or for 1 mythic power and 1 hour of rest can regain half your hitpoints and treat it as 8 hours rest for the regaining of abilities that are per day e.g. rage.
6) 2 mythic feats
7) + 2 ability points to a stat.
8) 3 path abilities.
Thats just from 3 mythic ranks. Now lets look at some of those feats/path abilities they can choose. We'll use champion as its sort of the fighter version.
1) Champions strike (default: Sudden Attack spend 1 mythic power and get an extra attack at your highest BAB rolling twice and taking the best result. Add your tier to the attack roll +3 and ignore ALL damage reduction.
Now some sample's for the 3 abilities they can take. . .
1) Ever Ready: When making an attack of opportunity add your tier +3 to attack and damage, can make attacks of opportunity flatfooted without combat reflexes, and be able to make an extra attack of opportunity each round as your 3rd tier.
2) Punishing blow: Any creature hit with a melee or ranged attack has its fast healing/regeneration surpresse for a round, if its a critical you also surpresss its damage reduction for a round.
3) Precision: All extra attacks during a full attack action increase by 5 e.g. +12, +7, +2 becomes +12, +12, +7.
4) Unstoppable shot: Make one ranged attack
5) Unchanging: Immune to polymorph and petrification effects.
Plus of course the ubiquitous legendary item path ability. Spend 1 path ability and you get a magic item that can do 3 from a list of options, take it twice and its a minor artifact that gives you six. What things you ask well things like . . .
Foe Biting: Expend a use of the items legendary power (its version of mythic) to double the damage, two uses for criticals also doubles special ability damage e.g. precision damage.
Legendary Fortification: Expend a legendary power to negate a critical hit or sneak attack.
Undetectable: Wielder becomes utterly undetectable while inviible.
Unstopable strike: Expend 1 legendary power to make an attack vs touch ac, expend two uses to also ignore deflection bonuses (ring of protection).
This is just from 3 mythic tiers. As you move up the balance between mythic and non-mythic gets more and more pronounced. Again personally I don't object to improving a martial if there is a power difference I just can't believe this difference is so great that adding mythic wont leave the non-mythic players going "Oh its an adventure to save the kingdom I'll see you when you get back."
EDIT
Forgot the feats here's a few examples.
Mythic Toughness: Gain twice as many hitpoints and DR10/Epic if below zero.
Mythic Vital Strike: Anything that would normally be multipled on a critical hit is always multiplied by the number of damage dice you roll.
Wow... when you list out what mythic tiers give like that it's so sad. At the very least they could give something meaningful.
So is this a Martial bash thread or caster vs martial this time? On that note why not stop the argument and get back on point!
No i dont think it would "solve" your "problem" to give the martials mythic abilities.
If you were to give the martial players, say, 1 rank of mythic, maybe two, that would be sort of alright around level 14+, buuut the problem that arises is that you have one set of players that have extra stuff, and another that has no extra stuff. You probably see the innate problem here right?
Sure, Okay, I know martials arent to well off if you compare them face to face with casters in the lategame, I know that very well, but still, I'dd be a little peeved if my GM gave another player a lot of love and affection, and gave me stark stares saying "youre a caster, you dont NEED it!", I'dd be all like "But pappy I wuv you so much can I get stuff too pliiis?"
Also, what do you do about the guys on the edge, the partial casters, and the martials that already stand on two steady feet in the lategame?
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How do you fix this? There is a really good way to fix this you know.
Encounter design and storytelling.
Every now and then "godlike" wizards need to know that they arent yet gods. Make them feel the pain that can ensue after a failed perception check in a dark alley or a complex cave network. You can also reenforce The teamwork aspect, a dragon in an antimagic bubble is not a new idea but its a classic way to make a mage fear for their skin, how better to show the martial his strength by putting him as the only barrier between a hungry dragon and a frigthened old mage? What, just what, if there was a circumstance that the spellcaster does not have a spell prepared for that they run into and absolutely need to deal with quickly? Perhaps the martial may have some solution.
Aside from special circumstances you also need to be sure your choices of enemies are proper challenges. Flying is often the first ability that destroys the balance between PC's and NPC's. To compensate for ths you must find a way to make stuff like flying and teleportation less efficient or at least balance the field. A Shoggoth encounter can be deadly to a martial, but as long as he is flying a mage is at no risk at all, CR 19 or whatever, without a ranged attack the shoggoth is just a sitting duck. To make the Shoggoth actually threaten the mage you need to put them in an enclosed space. If the fight absolutely HAS to happen in an open area (perhaps because the players forced it to), then make some additional elements, in an open area the shoggoth's CR stops being appropriate because it is a disadvantageous location, reducing its CR and thus allowing for some extra creatures in the encounter. The first and best thing to add is some fire support. A long ranged character that can fight the flying mage to some extent.
The natural enemy of teleportation is a storyline where the players must interpose themselves between an enemy and his goal (You cant just teleport away if the enemy then escapes or destroy's something the players must protect).
The natural enemy of flight is ranged attack. (In fact, youre probably safer behind your friends the martials if the enemy happens to have a lot of ranged abilities).
A spellcaster who gets to control the pace of the story IS the story. Dont allow your players to rest between every encounter, one benefit to playing a martial is that you get to fight for a lot longer then most mages and not get bogged down by finite resources, if the casters spend every spell they have up-front in the first two figths of an adventuring day and then steadfastly refuse to continue then they are denying the martials one element of their kit as well as slowing down the story. To counter this you can put the story on a timer, "If we dont go now the village will burn!" or "The vampire is vulnerable now, if we can find it's coffin soon we can end it forever!" or "The cult is preparing the ritual, we can't let them summon the Shoggoth!". Or whatever, you get the picture.
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I think you'd be surprised how much of a difference even a few tiers of mythic ranks makes much less ten in the hands of someone who power games. I don't so naturally I"m not going to be picking the most broken combinations out there.
@Anzyr
I don't know what kind of games you normally play in but if I were in one where a player or players was getting all that and others weren't it'd seem like a pretty big deal.
How do you fix this? There is a really good way to fix this you know.
Encounter design and storytelling.
Every now and then "godlike" wizards need to know that they arent yet gods. Make them feel the pain that can ensue after a failed perception check in a dark alley or a complex cave network. You can also reenforce The teamwork aspect, a dragon in an antimagic bubble is not a new idea but its a classic way to make a mage fear for their skin, how better to show the martial his strength by putting him as the only barrier between a hungry dragon and a frigthened old mage? What, just what, if there was a circumstance that the spellcaster does not have a spell prepared for that they run into and absolutely need to deal with quickly? Perhaps the martial may have some solution.
Dark Alleys? Against people with multiple senses, that can fly and literally walk through walls? I'm guessing this isn't a serious suggestion.
Dragon in an Antimagic Field? I'd much rather be a caster against that then a Martial. Antimagic Field is hardly frightening for Casters. Dazing Instanteous Conjurations will make that Dragon regret nerfing any bonuses it could have gotten to Saves. Shoggoth in an enclosed space? It's not winning initiative or surviving the first round.
And yes, once a caster gets high enough leveled, the story is solely about them and what they can do. There isn't an encounter that changes this.
Ya, sorry nothing described here works against high system mastery casters.
I think you'd be surprised how much of a difference even a few tiers of mythic ranks makes much less ten in the hands of someone who power games. I don't so naturally I"m not going to be picking the most broken combinations out there.
@Anzyr
I don't know what kind of games you normally play in but if I were in one where a player or players was getting all that and others weren't it'd seem like a pretty big deal.
Games where the opening move for many spellcasters is Maze + Quickened Maze.
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Games where the opening move for many spellcasters is Maze + Quickened Maze.I think you'd be surprised how much of a difference even a few tiers of mythic ranks makes much less ten in the hands of someone who power games. I don't so naturally I"m not going to be picking the most broken combinations out there.
@Anzyr
I don't know what kind of games you normally play in but if I were in one where a player or players was getting all that and others weren't it'd seem like a pretty big deal.
Hmmmm I think that's the difference then I've only gotten to play in one high level game but I've never taken maze or metamagic feats. Always had other stuff I'd rather get.
Most of the mythic abilities listed above don’t seem world shattering to me except maybe Precision (which seems strong but not crazy) and Foe Biting + Mythic Vital Strike (which actually might be a little nuts). Anyhow, I wonder how folks feel about artifacts. If the Fighter got an artifact sword would that be OK, or would the Wizard need an artifact staff too? I’m not talking about a situation where you’ve got two Fighters and the DM gives one Blackrazor and the other a +1 club. I’m talking about PCs who fill different roles in a game where one PC is clearly falling behind and needs help staying relevant.
I don't care for the idea that any problem somebody finds with the game really isn’t a problem since the DM could fix it through better encounter design. Even if you're a fan of that idea I'd think that using other solutions like the OP's idea should be equally valid though. Sure, the DM could cook up an adventure with a bunch of golems where the caster feels helpless and has to hide behind the guy with the adamantine hammer, but then you've just got a different player not having fun - or the caster buffs up with some magic, grabs the adamantine weapon, and kills the golems himself, laughing as he says, "Don't try to steal the spotlight! You had it when we were 1st level. You laughed at my 1d4+1 Magic Missile! Now I am like a god!"
@Senko - I’ve played in a fair number of high level games and have certainly observed some issues with casters. Anyhow, I suspect that we are doomed to disagree since you said you’re firmly opposed to nerfing. I think nerfing is great. I’ve liked most of the various nerfs handed down over the years since 3e starting with the change to Haste in 3.5. If Maze got a Will save and every SoL spell in the game got nerfed I’d like it.
Hmmmm I think that's the difference then I've only gotten to play in one high level game but I've never taken maze or metamagic feats. Always had other stuff I'd rather get.Games where the opening move for many spellcasters is Maze + Quickened Maze.I think you'd be surprised how much of a difference even a few tiers of mythic ranks makes much less ten in the hands of someone who power games. I don't so naturally I"m not going to be picking the most broken combinations out there.
@Anzyr
I don't know what kind of games you normally play in but if I were in one where a player or players was getting all that and others weren't it'd seem like a pretty big deal.
Maze is very powerful. It has no save and it can remove anyone without Plane Shift or a High INT effectively is completely out of the fight.
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I actually have a much bigger problem with:
Hmmmm I think that's the difference then I've only gotten to play in one high level game but I've never taken maze or metamagic feats. Always had other stuff I'd rather get.Because I don't know what's so important for a spellcaster that they'd never take a single metamagic. 6th level caster maybe?
Well with access to Kitsune I'd take Fox Shape, Realistic Likeness, Improved unarmed strike, Leadership, Eschew Materials, Improved Inititive, various crafting feats when allowed. Like I said I pick the things I like not what's mechanically the best options. Frankly I don't even know half of what's considered "vital" for a magic user much less recomended. Still I've enjoyed playing my casters quite happily. If had enough levels/space I'd probably take merciful as my first metamagic for a non-lethal damage spell option. As for spells I try and take the colourful ones (colour spray, hypnosis, prismatic spray), the shapechanging ones (polymorph, shapechange) and a whole range of utility ones like mending or know direction. Maze has just never been of interest to me. As for mythic half my choices are stuff I'm sure you'd consider a waste (longevity, pure body for immunity to disease/poison, mythic sustenance to not eat/drink/breathe, sleepless to not sleep, divine source to grant followers spells I would take the magic/knowledge domains and starwalker to fly between the stars).
Some people prefer playing with a focus on flavor rather than combat/utility. My bet is that such a caster would still be ok at many things, if not the best at any one particular thing.
And, again, a guess: a kitsune doesn't *really* need a lot of support to get high enchantment DCs. They just won't be what they could have been.
Ok, I can agree that if the casters pick wacky somewhat ineffective stuff and never go to high levels then the martials might not need much of a boost to be on par with them.
If you wanted me to make an encounter I would need the stats, items, abilities, etc of the characters who would be in this game. I would also need to know all the things associated with the characters in this game like their short term and long term goals. Next i would need to know the themes and other story line aspects associated with this game. Just throwing out classes is not enough.
since this is homebrew, just buff up the martials you feel are weak, like saying:
If we are broaching home-brew suggestions, I have the following.
I've never looked into it, but some people swear by the Kirthfinder approach
If you wanted me to make an encounter I would need the stats, items, abilities, etc of the characters who would be in this game. I would also need to know all the things associated with the characters in this game like their short term and long term goals. Next i would need to know the themes and other story line aspects associated with this game. Just throwing out classes is not enough.
Just describe one of yours and the party that played it.
While the first post is a little more dismissive than I'd prefer, I don't know if it merited such a harsh reply...
While the first post is a little more dismissive than I'd prefer, I don't know if it merited such a harsh reply...
It does if you know the guy. Half his responses are "Not a problem for me, get over it" and the other half are him clearly not reading the posts he's responding to.
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Ok, I can agree that if the casters pick wacky somewhat ineffective stuff and never go to high levels then the martials might not need much of a boost to be on par with them.
I've always played to a theme rather than picking based on mechanics unless I felt I had to take something for the parties sake. I know a guy who i used to play with (real life cut my time to much to play regularly) who I think was a lot like Anzyr extreme rules knowledge and a desire to draw out every mechanical advantage. However that just gives you a range of caster characters and a blanket giving mythic to the fighter types is going to make it heavily unbalanced their way and anger any caster player because they're getting all sorts of benefits we're refused.
Like I said it'd be much more acceptable to just add specific abilties to beef their classes up somewhat. How much of a beefing they need could depend on the person playing the caster class. However there are things like mythic finesse where I wouldn't blink an eye at it being removed and regular finesse adding dex to attack/damage rather than just attack. Similarly a only rogues can disable devices (traps, locks, Etc) with a Dc greater than 20 wouldn't duly upset me.
Where I get upset would be saying because your a caster I'm giving the fighter all this mythic stuff.