Angelic invasion of an Evil nation.

[Tharasiph]

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

[Rynjin]

I'd think it would never happen, since mortal (and even undead) nations with mortal concerns are small fish compared to what the angels are fighting.

Unless the plot of your campaign relies on Celestials finally winning the war against the Fiends (or a monumental tactical blunder involving sending ANY significant military force to the mortal planes when the ranks of the Abyss alone outnumber you at least 2:1, and likely more), there's too many plot holes for the tub to float.

[pennywit]

I see two different scenarios. Both involve rules from Ultimate Campaign.

This Means War. A modified kingdom-building campaign, with a heavy emphasis on the mass combat rules and the related Legendary Games supplements. The players would have backers (probably Andoran, the Arclords of Nex, or the Knights of Ozem) who provide the players with BP to get them started. Players would not only need to capture militarily important locations, but also carve new self-sustaining domains out of their conquered territories.

The Great Game. In this campaign, players would "win" not by building kingdoms, but by building influence, manipulating people, and occasionally going on adventures designed to accomplish military objectives, typically to recover McGuffins and help secure territory. I think the Contacts, Fame, and Buildings and Organizations rules would be handy here, representing players' growing political influence as they try to subvert the regime from within.

Special Ops/Hybrid Campaign. This campaign would combine military goals with politics. Players would start at 1st or 2nd level, where they'd be military grunts, diplomatic attaches, and similar. Over time, they would rise in rank and influence. Where they'd be performing low-level raids and negotiations at the start, by the time they hit 8th or 9th level, they'd have squads and followers of their own that they would send to accomplish short-term goals, while the players would concentrate on the bigger picture.

[UnArcaneElection]

This could be an AP kicking off a World War G as recommended by pennywit in this thread. The Contract of Creation is supposedly holding deities back from direct intervention in the Prime Material Plane, but what if somebody who actually had power to make something happen otherwise said To Hell With It (pun intended)?

[FatR]

Rynjin wrote:

I'd think it would never happen, since mortal (and even undead) nations with mortal concerns are small fish compared to what the angels are fighting.

This reasoning doesn't hold even the littlest bit of water. In the war of alignments, the mortal plane is the only actual strategic location of any importance whatsoever. It is the place from which both sides draw every bit of their reinforcements! Saying that mortal concerns are small fish for angels is like saying that enemy territory and industry are small fish for a nation waging a total war. (And as a bonus, in many DnD versions angels and demons don't die when they are killed on the material plane, too). Every single major effort by either side should be centered on taking over mortal worlds and reshaping them in accordance with their designs (the simplest way that doesn't require investing permanent management is total genocide of every race that is naturally predisposed to alignments opposed to yours, easier to do for the forces of evil of course, because they have a lot of strongly and safely evil-inclined races in their disposal).

Now, you can make the correct observation, that it kinda sucks to be a mortal, including a mortal PC, when angelic and demonic armies rampage through the landscape. Not every campaign is supposed to be about the next scheduled Apocalypse and having forces beyond anything you can imagine wreck your world may end up deprotagonizing.

However, to avoid exactly this scenario you need to either fundamentally change the cosmology, perhaps make it not so utterly materialistic and human-centered, or invent more barriers for outsider access to the mortal world.

[Nearyn]

Redemption Engine spoilers, minor:

If we've learned anything from "The Redemption Engine" we've learned that good-aligned outsiders are capable of some sick sh*t, in the name of the "the greater good".

-Nearyn

[xavier c]

Nearyn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

-Nearyn

I saw nothing wrong with what they where doing. compered to what evil outsiders do every day.

[pennywit]

UnArcaneElection wrote:

This could be an AP kicking off a World War G as recommended by pennywit in this thread. The Contract of Creation is supposedly holding deities back from direct intervention in the Prime Material Plane, but what if somebody who actually had power to make something happen otherwise said To Hell With It (pun intended)?

If you're talking about a god breaking the Contract of Creation, that's going to become a mythic campaign, I think.

[LazarX]

Tharasiph wrote:

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

You're not expecting Paizo to create an AP dedicated to fighting Angels, are you? Nor do I see a series where it turns out that Angels are launching a genocidal war against mortalkind like that new series on TV, Dominion?

Keep in mind that the reasons Demons can pull off a Worldwound event is that they outnumber everyone else in the celestial buisness, whether infernal or celestial. Angels don't have the numbers to pull that off.

[Arachnofiend]

xavier c wrote:

Nearyn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

-Nearyn

I saw nothing wrong with what they where doing. compered to what evil outsiders do every day.

Spoiler:

I'm not at all familiar with the Redemption Engine, but I think the actions of good outsiders not being at all comparable to those of evil ones is what makes the good outsiders good.

[Aelryinth]

Nearyn wrote:

** spoiler omitted **

-Nearyn

Correction. Good outsiders corrupted by unholy tomes that pervert their frame of reference are capable of doing bad things. And their mortal servants are capable of doing worse things.

The majority of the mortal plane is basically interdicted against just this kind of planar interference, because if the profound realms warred on the prime, they'd destroy it and kill everything eventually.

So, you don't get invasions like this. What you get is Called or Gated planar allies who can come in and do things. The only way you get around this limitation is with a pseudo divine entity, such as a demon prince, challenging the status quo, and likely pissing off every other profound higher power as he does so.

The interesting way to handle this is to bring a Solar to the Prime, and have him able to Gate/Call in help, and start building an army to fulfill the function of his being Gated. In previous versions, Solars Gating in Solars was called a Celestial Cascade, and could rapidly get very, very broken in the amount of muscle you could call to one place...which is why you didn't challenge Heaven in a show of rapid deployment muscle.

==Aelryinth

[Uwotm8]

Tharasiph wrote:

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

Cheliax, at least, is super special. They have a signed contract with Asmodeus himself, one of *the* oldest and singularly most powerful deities out there. I'm sure there some hefty "keep us safe" provisions in return for the nation being willingly inundated with hell's teaching and minions. Keep in mind they turned to Hell at a time when the country was fracturing. The whole point of the accord with Hell was to restore national sovereignty. Abigail Thrune, herself, is personally instructed by some of the most adept of Hell's generals.

[Rynjin]

FatR wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

I'd think it would never happen, since mortal (and even undead) nations with mortal concerns are small fish compared to what the angels are fighting.

This reasoning doesn't hold even the littlest bit of water. In the war of alignments, the mortal plane is the only actual strategic location of any importance whatsoever. It is the place from which both sides draw every bit of their reinforcements! Saying that mortal concerns are small fish for angels is like saying that enemy territory and industry are small fish for a nation waging a total war. (And as a bonus, in many DnD versions angels and demons don't die when they are killed on the material plane, too). Every single major effort by either side should be centered on taking over mortal worlds and reshaping them in accordance with their designs (the simplest way that doesn't require investing permanent management is total genocide of every race that is naturally predisposed to alignments opposed to yours, easier to do for the forces of evil of course, because they have a lot of strongly and safely evil-inclined races in their disposal).

Now, you can make the correct observation, that it kinda sucks to be a mortal, including a mortal PC, when angelic and demonic armies rampage through the landscape. Not every campaign is supposed to be about the next scheduled Apocalypse and having forces beyond anything you can imagine wreck your world may end up deprotagonizing.

However, to avoid exactly this scenario you need to either fundamentally change the cosmology, perhaps make it not so utterly materialistic and human-centered, or invent more barriers for outsider access to the mortal world.

It's not, though. The Material may be where their "reinforcements" come from, but control or lack thereof of any given territory in the world is meaningless.

Worse than meaningless, in fact, since the Material is also where your ENEMY'S reinforcements come from...and you, by attacking a mostly Evil nation, have given them a large influx of "reinforcements" ahead of schedule.

Since Evil creatures already VASTLY outnumber good ones, especially outsiders, you have now shot yourself in the foot twofold: You have committed a significant force of some persuasion to the destruction of this nation, AND you have contributed to bolstering your enemy's ranks simultaneously.

The Demons, Daemons, and Devils need do nothing but sit by and watch. Or, if they're smart (which they are) press the assault while you're carrying out your fool's errand on the material, and cause even more Celestial casualties in the process.

There is no way to do this that does not result in a net loss for the angels in the grand scheme, which is why they haven't done it yet.

[Uwotm8]

Keep in mind that souls are far from judged instantly when they die. Aroden was a special case. There could be SIGNIFICANT delay (in the span of centuries) before any outer plane would actually reap those rewards. That said, a massive assault on the river of souls could also be a feature. But, you're messing with Pharasma, then. She's *the* oldest of them all. Good luck, buddy. Hahaha

[Rynjin]

Uwotm8 wrote:

Keep in mind that souls are far from judged instantly when they die. Aroden was a special case. There could be SIGNIFICANT delay (in the span of centuries) before any outer plane would actually reap those rewards. That said, a massive assault on the river of souls could also be a feature. But, you're messing with Pharasma, then. She's *the* oldest of them all. Good luck, buddy. Hahaha

True, but unless the angels are going around "ascending" an equal number of their Good followers, the Fiends are going to get their cut first.

Immortal beings from another plane can afford to be patient, but one side getting reinforcements decades, if not centuries before you do, when you're already outnumbered, seems like a bad idea.

[FatR]

Rynjin wrote:

It's not, though. The Material may be where their "reinforcements" come from, but control or lack thereof of any given territory in the world is meaningless.

So... something that allows you to cut your enemy's reinforcements and increase your own is meaningless in war?

Rynjin wrote:

Worse than meaningless, in fact, since the Material is also where your ENEMY'S reinforcements come from...and you, by attacking a mostly Evil nation, have given them a large influx of "reinforcements" ahead of schedule.

You work on the scale of millenia and influx of souls to the lower planes from killing every evil creature that lives on, say, Golarion, in one day would hardly register next to what already goes there daily.

Now, if you ensure that no goblin, orc, bugbear, ogre and whatever similar is born on Golarion for the next few millenia until interplane and interplanetary connections infest the world with naturally evil races again, then maybe you can talk about shifting Lower Planes' soul income compared to yours by some tiny faction of a percent. Repeat on a few hundreds of thousands of planets before fiends can do the same, and you'd start gaining a visible edge. When in your universe there is only war, not showing up on the only battlefield that matters is the single dumbest thing you can do. Also, before you start talking about extermination not being a solution good creatures should be comfortable with, consider that races with near-absolute predisposition towards Evil are nothing more than self-growing snacks for fiends. And for 99.999% of them just having their soul eaten or burned as a magic component is actually a good ending, painless next to the alternatives. But hey, if you believe that snakefolk or drow realistically can be rehabilitated (even though in PF drow literally happen when elves turn evil to the core), it is much easier to do with an army of angels taking over and forcing them to stop their bad habits.

Rynjin wrote:

Since Evil creatures already VASTLY outnumber good ones, especially outsiders.

As they haven't yet won, I'm not going to trust this statement.

[Arachnofiend]

Good aligned gods tend to get their collective asses handed to them by whatever the Ultimate Evil is in RPG's. That's why you need Average Joe From A Small Town to fulfill his destiny.

[Tiny Coffee Golem]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Good aligned gods tend to get their collective asses handed to them by whatever the Ultimate Evil is in RPG's. That's why you need Average Joe From A Small Town to fulfill his destiny.

Evil is more efficient. Good has to deal with morals and such.

Hence good's general need for some destined child to repeatedly save the world from falling off the razors edge.

[FatR]

Arachnofiend wrote:

Good aligned gods tend to get their collective asses handed to them by whatever the Ultimate Evil is in RPG's. That's why you need Average Joe From A Small Town to fulfill his destiny.

"Pathfinder" is not "RPGs". Forces of Good being largely useless in PF's status quo actually seems to be a reaction to older vanilla DnD settings, like Forgotten Realms, Dragon Lance, and, to some extent, Greyhawk, where forces of Evil were regularly reckt so hard it was somewhat difficult to take them seriously.

[Rynjin]

FatR wrote:

You work on the scale of millenia and influx of souls to the lower planes from killing every evil creature that lives on, say, Golarion, in one day is completely insignificant to what they receive normally.

Now, if you ensure that no goblin, orc, bugbear, ogre and whatever similar is born on Golarion for the next few millenia until interplane and interplanetary connections infest the world with naturally evil races again, then maybe you can talk about reducing Lower Planes' soul income by some tiny faction of a percent.

Ah yes, genocide. The purview of Good aligned creatures everywhere!

And I'm unsure what you're arguing for any more. You say Golarion is "significant" but wiping out all of the evil races would only lower the total influx by "some tiny fraction of a percent"?

So which is it?

FatR wrote:

Rynjin wrote:

Since Evil creatures already VASTLY outnumber good ones, especially outsiders.

As they haven't yet won, I'm not going to trust this statement.

It is literally in the books. Both the Bestiary and setting books.

Celestials are pound for pound stronger than their Fiendish counterparts, and more defense based, but they ARE outnumbered.

Look at the description of Demons, for example, where all mention of their total number is that they are "beyond knowing" and "countless" (that's just Demon LORDS, mind you).

[boring7]

Tharasiph wrote:

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

That's against a lot of tropes and "narrative rules." Not to say you can't do it, but the issues raised are:

1. Celestials, being super-benevolent, are less likely to start a war since it will involve horror and cruelty no matter how they fight. You can roll with "good is not nice," a la what Nearyn was referencing; especially if it is a "villains by necessity" setting. But that raises its own host of issues and implications.

2. Celestials don't do mass-sacrifice combat as often. Demons and devils are ALWAYS fighting, so when they send 500 doomed legions of the damned to fight and fail against the Bulwark of light that's no big deal. Those demons were going to be fighting and dying other abyssal lords if they weren't fighting and dying against paladins, and the pain and suffering of their troops is good because demon lords hate their own troops.

Angels don't generally do that, so they don't like sacrificial swarms, abuse, or fights without caution. Also in most settings they don't have as many troops because heaven has fewer warriors than hell. I don't know the source (presumably real-world religion) but it is generally accepted that the mortal world is just as evil as can be and most dead folk become evil outsiders instead of good ones. It's just one of those nigh-universal tropes that Angels are much stronger pound-for-pound but lose in attrition against devils.

The point being, those celestials are more likely to either start and finish their war in one decisive stroke of a HUGE army, or not fight directly at all. The whole Blood War from Planescape was (in a small part) helped along by celestials keeping it going. In a time before time they DID invade the lower planes, and they lost due to numbers.

3. If Celestials are going to invade a place, they'd probably start with the Worldwound. More local allies, more good people to save, less ambiguous enemy to visit destruction upon.

Still going with celestial invasion? Okay, I can dig it.

First, you gotta decide, are the angels a shield or a sword? Do they slaughter mortals in order to save their souls or counsel and convert them from the ways of wickeness?

Second, whose idea was this? Was this the will of the Empyreal lords, bringing down judgement and salvation from on high? Because it COULD be it was just one crazy sorceress and her Azata boyfriend doing a whole lotta summoning, rabble-rousing, and gating to dump an army of celestials in the general vicinity of evil and diplomacy-tize them into starting a war. In fact, this would also explain why they are fighting an invasion instead of just "holy-nuking" the place.

Third, which side are the adventurers on? Angel, demon, or human? Sure they could be good or evil, but if "good is not nice" and evil is evil, they might just be fighting alongside the Druids to kick all these outsiders off their plane. Playing both sides until they can form their own, and ultimately working magic which locks down conjuration, topples the Cheliaxian government, and sends the "purifiers" away.

Personally, I'd go with busybody sorcerer, half-and-half angels (jerk vs. hero), powerful druid council as backers, and a goal of a nation-wide dismissal and dimensional lock in order to shut down the battle and let the fabric of reality repair itself after all these holes had been torn in it.

Adventures would begin in Cheliax with regular "hell knights bad." Probably have a sacred grove (which provides healing and food) near some village about to be pillaged and burned by some hell-wizard to both empower himself and please the devil patron of his noble house. PCs have to figure out a way to deal with this (low level) wizard and his minions without bringing down the hammer of the imperial forces.

After killing, blackmailing, or intimidating the wizard into leaving the town alone, the PCs have a little down-time. This ends one night when the village is assaulted and burned to the ground by attackers. More terrifying, these attackers are angels. One evacuation adventure followed by a dungeon-crawl through an underground cavern filled with a fungal forest (glowshroom is best shroom), and the survivors are taken in by a sect of druids. They are extremely powerful within their hidden domain in the caverns and an attached mountain vale, but unable to really do more than "hold the line" and hide from the bigger players. If using Ultimate Campaign, you get to build a new town from scratch based on how many people you managed to save!

Adventures from there get more vague, since more and more depends on specifics of previous adventures, but it all involves running around, getting devils and celestials to duke it out while getting natives out of the way and either recruiting them to your hidden village or getting them to help you with your "dimensional stabilizer" macguffin. There will be plenty of betrayal, political action, and seeing both celestials and fiends in their earthly fortresses and how they treat people.

Final battle should involve goodies and baddies and probably a "defend the device while it charges up" though to be honest the only AP I ever read the finish of was Age of Worms (a decade ago) so I'm not sure how best to roll it all out. But the "win condition" involves mass banishment and sealing off most of the country from extraplanar involvement. This can actually dick over conjuration specialists, but when the AP ends there's a good chance the campaign is over, so it doesn't matter that much.

[FatR]

Rynjin wrote:

Ah yes, genocide. The purview of Good aligned creatures everywhere!

Genocide is just a fact of life in DnD, particularly in PF, which upgrades a good number of races from "uncivilized, brutish and bitter" to "literal demonspawn". While Paizo's APs do not, strictly speaking, force PCs' to put every last one of their goblin, ogre, gnoll, serpentfolk and whatever foes to the sword, they also hardly ever give any semblance of consideration to other possibilities. The only difference is whether you make the cutoff line for "kill 'em all, nobody cares about sorting out" at fiends, or at chromatic dragons, or at drow, or at goblins.

If you don't like these core setting and cosmology assumptions you're free to change them in your games, like I did. However, by default those assumptions are what they are. I'm merely reiterating them and provide some logical conclusions.

Rynjin wrote:

And I'm unsure what you're arguing for any more.

Then maybe you should reread my post.

Rynjin wrote:

It is literally in the books. Both the Bestiary and setting books.

Celestials are pound for pound stronger than their Fiendish counterparts, and more defense based, but they ARE outnumbered.

Look at the description of Demons, for example, where all mention of their total number is that they are "beyond knowing" and "countless" (that's just Demon LORDS, mind you).

Same goes for celestials. If you say it is in the books, please point at a page which says that celestials are outnumbered, not just that there are countless multitudes of fiends.

[MMCJawa]

Celestials also have the edge in that the different alignments of good outsider closely collaborate with one another to deal with evil. IN contrast, Demons, Daemons, and devils don't really get along that well together, even if there is nothing as extreme as the blood war going on. For that matter, Demons in generally really don't collaborate well, and their alliances tend to fall apart.

[Snow_Tiger]

There won't be anything involving a mass invasion by angels. Maybe angels influencing mortals is more realistic. Even then, it would be very impractical to attempt to invade cheliaxian (possibly Geb too, not well versed on it), razmiran would be more realistic. The only thing that might warrant an invasion of cheliax would be them being on the losing end (unlikely) of a hypothetical world war (also unlikely)

[Ashiel]

Tharasiph wrote:

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

All I could say for certain is it would go very badly for whomever they were fighting. Angels and Azatas are stacked. Pound for pound, angels are much more powerful and frightening than devils and demons. For example, quite a few of them cast spells as clerics of their level. Ever look at a Planetar? It's a CR 16, 16HD outsider with amazing base statistics (d10 HD, full BAB, great saves, great immunities, great SR, great special abilities) and it's effectively a 16th level cleric to boot, in addition to having a lot of really great SLAs.

Ghaele Azatas are pretty amazing too (13th level clerics in addition to being amazing otherwise).

Solars? Well, a solar is a god by any reasonable definition of the word.

Their low-tier ranks are pretty amazing too. Lillends are bards, complete with bardic performances (which combo very nicely with their allies).

Archons are no joke either.

[Tharasiph]

The horror of war would be largely averted by a good invading force. Surely there would be deprivation and such, but when a large number of the invading army can detect evil, they don't tend to slaughter indiscriminately.

Bombs and such don't exist so accidental casualties will also be kept alot lower.

The two nations I mentioned were Cheliax, well known for there long association with Devils and Geb which is a nation of undead. Cheliax might be able to gather allies, but they would basically be alone in the outsider stakes, no demons or daemons to help.

Geb well that place is a horror and has basically no-one to help it and it has committed a very nasty crime in taking Arazni's body.

[Jadeite]

Killing someone just because he detects as evil is wrong. It's an excellent way for a paladin to fall and the same goes for angels.

[xavier c]

Jadeite wrote:

Killing someone just because he detects as evil is wrong. It's an excellent way for a paladin to fall and the same goes for angels.

Iomedae, Torag,Ragathiel,Damerrich, and even Sarenrae disagree with you.

[Jadeite]

Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach wrote:

Little evil would be done in the world if evil never could be done in the name of good.

[xavier c]

Jadeite wrote:

Marie von Ebner-Eschenbach wrote:

Little evil would be done in the world if evil never could be done in the name of good.

A mere mortal thinks they know better then the gods.

This is a fictional world not the real world things work differently.

[Jadeite]

xavier c wrote:

A mere mortal thinks they know better then the gods.

This is a fictional world not the real world things work differently.

That sounds like something Loki would say. Puny god.

There are many ways to fool the detect spells. Nondetection, Misdirection, Undetectable Alignment. Also spells like Infernal Healing.
My antipaladin registered as LG thanks to Mask of Virtue.

Smite Evil works on the true alignment, but even without the extra damage from smite, you are still hurting those you attack.
Spells like Holy Word are also harder to fool but also damage neutral targets.

[Bob Bob Bob]

Congrats, you're now justifying the murder of anyone who has ever had a bad thought!

Detect Evil wrote:

Animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil, and as such this spell does not detect them. Creatures with actively evil intents count as evil creatures for the purpose of this spell.

Catch them on a bad day? MURDER THE EVILDOER!

[Uwotm8]

Actively evil intents are more than wishing you could hurt the person who just cut you off in traffic.

[Jadeite]

Core Rulebook wrote:

Good implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.

Evil implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.

It's not that hard to detect as evil ...

... unless you are truly evil in which case you have many ways of avoiding detection.

[Tharasiph]

You do realise saying your doing good, but "actually" doing evil will show you as "Evil".

In a country how many would be able to mask their alignment, i'm betting not that many... of those some would get away or cause other havoc due to their undetectability, but that would happen anyway , cos invisibility is a 2nd level spell..

Still does not mean that the ones that detected as Evil aren't guilty.
(unless funky magic was used and that's pretty rare too.)

Well extreme greed would probably also detect as Evil...

[Jadeite]

Tharasiph wrote:

You do realise saying your doing good, but "actually" doing evil will show you as "Evil".

In a country how many would be able to mask their alignment, i'm betting not that many... of those some would get away or cause other havoc due to their undetectability, but that would happen anyway , cos invisibility is a 2nd level spell..

Still does not mean that the ones that detected as Evil aren't guilty.
(unless funky magic was used and that's pretty rare too.)

Well extreme greed would probably also detect as Evil...

There should be a difference between being guilty and deserving death.

And the ones you can detect are the small fry. The ones able to avoid detection are the most dangerous.

[Tharasiph]

Jadeite wrote:

There should be a difference between being guilty and deserving death.

And the ones you can detect are the small fry. The ones able to avoid detection are the most dangerous.

True up to a point, but is this a place of airy fairyness or of real consequences?

You've still got their minions, means you still have to hunt them down the hard way but they have less minions to get in the way.

Just because your not getting some of the bosses doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth doing.

[Aelryinth]

Tiny Coffee Golem wrote:

Arachnofiend wrote:

Good aligned gods tend to get their collective asses handed to them by whatever the Ultimate Evil is in RPG's. That's why you need Average Joe From A Small Town to fulfill his destiny.

Evil is more efficient. Good has to deal with morals and such.

Hence good's general need for some destined child to repeatedly save the world from falling off the razors edge.

Evil is considerably less efficient then good, because of internal rivalries.

What it is, is more pragmatic and ruthless. That's not at all the same thing as 'efficient'. Good tends to be far more capable of pulling outside its weight class because of its willingness to sacrifice to help others.

Evil, on the other hand, tends to underpull because it's perfectly willing to sacrifice others to advance its causes, all those folk know it, and subvert its intentions to save their hides, since they are all willing to sacrifice their superiors and comrades to save their hides, if they can do so.

When things are a slaughterfest or pure survival mandates some teamwork, sure, they can pull together in the short term. But outside that, or when faced with a dire threat? Evil turns on itself, furthers its own goals, and rots from within. They are the embodiment of corruption...and slaves to it as much as anything.

==Aelryinth

[Aelryinth]

Ashiel wrote:

Tharasiph wrote:

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

All I could say for certain is it would go very badly for whomever they were fighting. Angels and Azatas are stacked. Pound for pound, angels are much more powerful and frightening than devils and demons. For example, quite a few of them cast spells as clerics of their level. Ever look at a Planetar? It's a CR 16, 16HD outsider with amazing base statistics (d10 HD, full BAB, great saves, great immunities, great SR, great special abilities) and it's effectively a 16th level cleric to boot, in addition to having a lot of really great SLAs.

Ghaele Azatas are pretty amazing too (13th level clerics in addition to being amazing otherwise).

Solars? Well, a solar is a god by any reasonable definition of the word.

Their low-tier ranks are pretty amazing too. Lillends are bards, complete with bardic performances (which combo very nicely with their allies).

Archons are no joke either.

I think Archons are the only celestials that have teleport w/o error at will. Most fiends have at least one use of the ability.

Teleportation is probably the biggest difference between fiends and celestials. Makes it hard to fight the fiends if they can gather wherever they want to in an instant, and leave just as fast.

==Aelryinth

[Voadam]

Tharasiph wrote:

The two nations I mentioned were Cheliax, well known for there long association with Devils and Geb which is a nation of undead. Cheliax might be able to gather allies, but they would basically be alone in the outsider stakes, no demons or daemons to help.

Cheliax would not be strong on calling in evil outsider allies because? They probably have the best chance of any nation of pulling in evil outsider allies, the Legions of Hell who owe allegiance to Cheliax's patron deity who has pacted directly the rulers of the nation.

Possibly only the Worldwound could call on more evil outsiders as it is mostly composed of demons, is run by demons, and has an open hole to the abyss.

[boring7]

Tharasiph wrote:

The horror of war would be largely averted by a good invading force. Surely there would be deprivation and such, but when a large number of the invading army can detect evil, they don't tend to slaughter indiscriminately.

Bombs and such don't exist so accidental casualties will also be kept alot lower.

Magic bombs exist in spades. And even a soft, cuddly invasion force has to face human shields. When a village is a mix of innocents and archers all hiding in the same buildings, wat do? What happens when the bad guys burn a city they think is about to switch sides or just be lost? Even if they save the people those people become refugees. What about slave legions driven in front of Hellknights, what about mind control, and what about mass sacrifices and theft of food "for the war effort"?

And the more overwhelming power the invasion force has that it can spend on helping the innocent civilians and "fighting gently," the less sense it makes that they haven't already steamrolled the evil undead/hellknights/whatever in a single day.

Tharasiph wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

There should be a difference between being guilty and deserving death.

And the ones you can detect are the small fry. The ones able to avoid detection are the most dangerous.

True up to a point, but is this a place of airy fairyness or of real consequences?

You've still got their minions, means you still have to hunt them down the hard way but they have less minions to get in the way.

Just because your not getting some of the bosses doesn't necessarily mean it's not worth doing.

And here you two are exploring the elephant in the room: Morality. Alignment arguments have existed on the internets since the internet was invented, and the flame wars on this very forum have both the "epic" and "endless" qualities. I could bring up some real-world examples of "good guys doing necessary evil" and the like, but that would spawn an even BIGGER argument that mirrored the same, "what is best in a bad situation?" question.

I'm not going to tell you that one interpretation is right or wrong, not my field. But you need answers, and your answers can raise new questions. See above where your answer is, "the celestials are just *that good* at mercifully sparing the innocent" which raises the question, "what use are the PCs in a war with such a power disparity?"

[boring7]

Voadam wrote:

Tharasiph wrote:

The two nations I mentioned were Cheliax, well known for there long association with Devils and Geb which is a nation of undead. Cheliax might be able to gather allies, but they would basically be alone in the outsider stakes, no demons or daemons to help.

Cheliax would not be strong on calling in evil outsider allies because? They probably have the best chance of any nation of pulling in evil outsider allies, the Legions of Hell who owe allegiance to Cheliax's patron deity who has pacted directly the rulers of the nation.

Possibly only the Worldwound could call on more evil outsiders as it is mostly composed of demons, is run by demons, and has an open hole to the abyss.

Cheliax could get devils, but daemons and demons would, at best, only ignore Cheliax. I think there were a few instances of devils helping against demons in the Worldwound AP. Though that may have been custom DM stuff.

Like I said, lotta plot and metaplot to consider.

[LazarX]

Ashiel wrote:

Tharasiph wrote:

Similar to the worldwound how do you think an invasion of an evil nation would go i.e. Geb or Cheliax.

For an AP the party could be fighting to achieve strategic objectives and then solving problems within the invasion force and stopping enemy adventurers.

All I could say for certain is it would go very badly for whomever they were fighting. Angels and Azatas are stacked. Pound for pound, angels are much more powerful and frightening than devils and demons. For example, quite a few of them cast spells as clerics of their level. Ever look at a Planetar? It's a CR 16, 16HD outsider with amazing base statistics (d10 HD, full BAB, great saves, great immunities, great SR, great special abilities) and it's effectively a 16th level cleric to boot, in addition to having a lot of really great SLAs.

Ghaele Azatas are pretty amazing too (13th level clerics in addition to being amazing otherwise).

Solars? Well, a solar is a god by any reasonable definition of the word.

Their low-tier ranks are pretty amazing too. Lillends are bards, complete with bardic performances (which combo very nicely with their allies).

Archons are no joke either.

What works against them are the sheer numbers that evil can put out. Whenever celestials and infernals/abyssals have a major throwdown, Evil generally wipes out the floor with good, because when you have enough raw power to throw down on the battlefield, the nicer looks and nifty powers of the celestials don't mean squat.

In short, celestials never pull their own version of "Worldwound" tactics, because they can't get away with it, and they're wise enough to know it.

[LazarX]

xavier c wrote:

Jadeite wrote:

Killing someone just because he detects as evil is wrong. It's an excellent way for a paladin to fall and the same goes for angels.

Iomedae, Torag,Ragathiel,Damerrich, and even Sarenrae disagree with you.

Sarenrae has already burned herself once when she went into wholesale extermination mode. She's not likely to repeat that any time soon.

[Zhangar]

Celestials are definitely pretty bad-ass, pound for pound.

Think of them of as a special forces group made of volunteers.

In most cases a celestial is someone who's arrived in paradise and went "I'm willing to risk my eternal destruction to fight for this. This is worth it."

Even a lowly lantern archon is hardcore.

In comparison, the ranks of the big 3 fiend races are mostly filled by conscripts.

The Damned of Hell suffer unberable torture until their minds are destroyed and their soul-shells reduced to flesh-puddy - tortured until they become a clean slate for Hell to work upon. The Damned have no real say in the matter.

The Hunted of Abaddon desperately scrap by to survive daemonic predation and feast upon each other until they can achieve rebirth as daemons that exemplify the means of their own demise. The Hunted have to transcend or die.

The Larva of the Abyss feast upon the Abyss's corruption until either something kills them or they finally metastasize into an avatar of whatever sin took over their lives and land them in the Abyss in the first place. Again, the Larva has no real say in the matter. (Aside: though also worth noting that multiple demons can spawn from a single sufficiently sinful Larva!)

Celestials aren't forced into it. They want their status and the responsibilities that comes with it.

Though I'll have to agree with the "horribly outnumbered" bit - first off, there's just not that many good souls to go around. Most mortal races are actually neutral, and most races that are predisposed towards being good (nymphs, metallic dragons, etc.) have small populations.

Second, IIRC from the Great Beyond, most of the Outer Planes are about the size of an Earth-class planet, give or take some space-bending wonkiness. I admit I might be getting things mixed up with other sources. If decently populated, then yeah, that's a lot of celestials.

Third, however, is the sheer size of both Hell and the Abyss. For example, Hell's sixth layer, Malebolge contains multiple planets worth of landmass within it, and all of it populated in one way or another - whether by the damned, by armies, or by mortal populations who are born, live, or die with no clue they're actually in Hell.

Similarly, the Abyss, the rotten underbelly of the Cosmos, is ridiculously large, and multiple demon lords are called out as having realms the size of planets or larger (such as Deskari and Cyth-V'sug).

If I'm understanding the metrics right, Deskari alone has a large enough army to match the entirety of Heaven. And he's not even one of the "top" demon lords of the Abyss!

The celestials can win as long as they can keep the fight small and keep it short.

If the fight becomes a war of attrition (or just escalates out of control), the celestials are going to be hurting, badly.

[Aelryinth]

I counter-posit that you're seriously undercounting Good, whose armies will also be effectively infinite.

The main difference is the realm of Gods. The vast, vast majority of Good souls, celestial and otherwise, are going to be in divine realms, which are effectively as large as they need to be, and can certainly be larger then any demon realm.

The lower planes have a lot of non-aligned random fiends running around, spawned from sin, with fewer in Hell and the vast majority in the Abyss. Because they are running around slaughtering things, especially one another, they look immensely large.

The good folk don't rampage, they stay in their realms and live their peaceful afterlives. But if there's a need for numbers, the gates of the gods can open, and what comes out can make the hordes of Below nerf pink twinkies.

In short, the fiends only win when they keep the fights short and brutal. IF they persist, they risk kicking something they really, really want to keep asleep. Having to deal with Heaven's special forces is bad enough. WHat happens when the real armies start marching out in their high morale, massive teamwork, great leadership, superbly equipped masses? Accompanied by entities that slap around demon princes like red-headed stepchildren?

No, no, the reason there isn't an all out attack ont he celestial realms is because Evil creatures have GREAT survival instincts, and know what would happen to them.

==Aelryinth

[boring7]

That's an aversion of the most common tropes, which isn't WRONG but has to be established.

Moreover, this is about celestials going on parade down in Primeville. A place most of the good, peaceful folk don't go.

[xavier c]

By the way the Outer Planes are NOT the size of an Earth-class planet. anyone Outer Plane is near infinite in size. james jacobs said anyone god's realm is as large a world or larger.

[Zhangar]

@ Aelrynth: Eh, I was thinking of the populations of the various divine realms when counting that. The divine realms are definitely important - in fact, I'd argue those are were most of the good souls populating the upper planes actually come from. Left to their own, the vast, vast majority of mortals are neutral (note that neutral is NORMAL) or even evil. Most of the "good" souls in the upper planes are actually neutral souls that a deity's influence tipped over to good.

Without the likes of Erastil, Sarenrae, Shelyn, Desna, and the various Empyreal Lords acting as soul magnets, the Upper Planes would be a lot emptier.

There certainly wouldn't be enough souls in the Upper Planes to dwarf the realms of the Abyss.

Fortunately, the various Abyssal Lords don't trust each other worth a damn. So if Deskari attacked Heaven, he'd probably be on his own (or worse, actually get attacked from behind by another demon lord), and would ultimately lose, with catastrophic losses for everyone involved.

But something like, say, Lamashtu and Pazuzu making amends and deciding to band their factions together to go attack the rest of the multiverse would be an outright apocalyptic event.

@ boring7 - Hmmm, true. My answer is: if a horde of celestial descended onto a prime material kingdom and began slaughtering the populace, they wouldn't actually stay celestials for very long.

[xavier c]

another mistake people are making is thinking that outsiders only come from souls.This is not true according to james jacobs outsiders can be created from nothing by the gods and. Randomly burst into existence from the Quintessence of a outer plane. Or even procreate sexually.