I don't know, that is something that kinda hit recently. A lot of builds I've seen emphasized on mobility and light encumbrance. When you think about it, it makes sense, since as an adventurer/explorer, you need to travel light so you don't get too heavy-loaded and/or in narrow passageways.
This what I'd like to ask: is heavy armor becoming outdated?
I'd love to play a Human Fighter with a Full Plate, Tower Shield, Bastard Sword and basically say "Come at me, bro!"... but in the end, I sink like a stone, I ring my arrival when sneaking, I plug corridors... it's just not practical...
So yeah, is heavy equipment such as a Full Plate becoming more of a novelty than an actual character specialty? While it's true that you never know how your DM is gonna map the world; you might never enter a single cave either. But still...
One of the problems that PF attempted to address is that the difference between mobility and being a walking wall is that both are equally able to achieve high ACs.
But the mobility build obviously has an advantage.
With the DR that higher level fighters get this somewhat plays into the idea that those with a bunch of metal encasing them are more durable.
But not enough so we often houserule additional DR based on the armor ranking light/medium/heavy.
Heavy armor is as much a liability now as it always was. For most characters it means having a slighly reduced movement speed (30 to 20). Which, can make a difference during combat but isn't untenable. There are also ways to mitigate this, Boots of Springing and Striding are the first thing that comes to mind. Also think of it this way, most medium size characters wearing heavy armor are no slower than a dwarf, gnome, or halfling.
My major concern isn't about AC or speed... but the rest. You're heavier to climb, to crawl, to swim, to run (sometimes), to sneak, etc...
This is what I've understood when seeing builds: players want to be mobile and unburdened.
In real life, heavy armor became outdated because it couldn't keep up with gunfire and, as you pointed out, severely limited what you could do in battle. It looks great going on, but it's not really practical most of the time.
That said, heavy armor provides a +7 to +9 AC. If you're the GM, you could create materials that would give the same amount of protection but be useful for lighter armor (the Pathfinder equivalent of Kevlar, for instance).
Heavy armor for high AC requires less system mastery and fewer magic items. Also, many players spend a great deal fo their gameplay at lower levels, where a set of full plate is the most useful.
Except Kevlar is only good against bullets. And even then, only against pistol rounds. If you want to stop a rifle round you need steel or ceramic plates like soldiers use. Which, if you're wearing all the plates in a plate carrier it's going to weight 20 to 30 lbs, possibly more. Full plate weighs 50 according to the game. Ceramic plates are lighter, but they also can't take than 1 or 2 shots before the become useless.
As far as climbing, and swiming, sneaking etc...magic magic magic. Invisibility, fly, and levitate will take care of most of these problems. And if you really want to handle it mithril will take a big bite out of the penalty. So, it mostly boils down that at low levels yes it can be invonvient, of course level 1 characters can't afford to purchase full plate either.
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Also use to be around the time you could aford a set of full plate as a character you might have Boots of Leaping and Striding to offset the slowdown. I was how my group fixed the problem.
However, armor training helps...as does an oracle curse, and other options. Just depends on how much you wan to give up.
Also mind you, once you go past level 10...people start flying and teleporting more so armor spikes then too as they don't CARE they have a walk speed of 20.
My major concern isn't about AC or speed... but the rest. You're heavier to climb, to crawl, to swim, to run (sometimes), to sneak, etc...
This is what I've understood when seeing builds: players want to be mobile and unburdened.
It can be mitigated in large part with mithral and fighter's armor training. At 7th level, you can move full speed in heavy armor (and since 3rd if the full plate is actually mithral), and the ACP is only -1 at that point. A negligible penalty to skills that goes away at 11th level for that combination.
The light armir builds also benefit from higher dex. That's better initiative, reflex save, ranged attacks and stealth.
If your build can have high dex and loght armor without a heavy sacrifice, it is worth it
????
I see heavy armored people all the time -.-...
In one dungeon crawl we had that was at lvl 15 our magus was in plate... and the paladin... and the alchemist vivisectionist beastmorph.. And the cleric...
So technically, this retires boobplate. *snicker*
I always play with no armor.
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My major concern isn't about AC or speed... but the rest. You're heavier to climb, to crawl, to swim, to run (sometimes), to sneak, etc...
This is what I've understood when seeing builds: players want to be mobile and unburdened.
There are disadvantages sure, but there are advantages too. First and foremost, the option of a low dexterity. This allows higher stats in other areas (assuming point buy) so classes like the paladin get to have a higher strength and charisma without having to sacrifice AC.
Personally I prefer more mobile characters only because I like to be more well rounded, and the iron wall sort of character often isnt, but it isnt outdated, its just a matter of preference
Heavy armor protects you against one thing, physical attacks, out of a great many things you can possibly face (most of which grow proportionally more frequent compared to plain physical attacks as you grow higher in level).
There's plenty of reason not to treat heavy armor as an "actual character specialty," the foremost being just how many forms of attack entirely bypass it.
It does still have a place in a character's defenses, however, and probably enjoys something of a sweet spot in effectiveness at lower to middle levels.
Full plate has its uses. Its great at lower levels if your dex score isn't too hot, and its AC caps out with a total one higher than medium and 2 higher than light. Fighter's themselves get to move at full speed and their max dex is raised so they have a higher potential AC.
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This what I'd like to ask: is heavy armor becoming outdated?
Absolutely not! IMO.
I'd love to play a Human Fighter with a Full Plate, Tower Shield, Bastard Sword and basically say "Come at me, bro!"... but in the end, I sink like a stone, I ring my arrival when sneaking, I plug corridors... it's just not practical...
Not Practical, but darned if plugging a hallway full of beasties, allowing the wounded party to retreat, isn't a bad thing.
Add one ring of Waterbreathing, and it's adventure in the briny deep, who knows they may find treasure!
And of course full plated never sneaks, we stand imposing! Sleep terrible, and make great makeshift cookpots with our helms!
Know that even the cavalier would don leather armor or chain if it were snazzy, and helped with spelunking or sneaking about an enemy encampment. Players often get too lazy to setup a 2nd set of armor they travel with for certain occasions. the Lighter set a rust monster won't find as tasty...
can someone give me an example of making a higher ac light/med armor build than heavy armor?
can someone give me an example of making a higher ac light/med armor build than heavy armor?
I don't know about higher than heavy armor, but my fighter swordlord has fairly decent with just a +1 Mithral Kikko (6 AC, 0 ACP) at 10th level...when in melee.
6 Kikko
6 DEX
3 Combat Expertise
2 Fighting Defensively
1 Acrobatics over 3 (+1 to Fight Defensively)
1 Crane Style and Fighting Defensively (also reduces attack penalty by 2)
2 Shield bonus Aldori Sword Mastery (when wielding sword only)
2 Steel Net (Aldori Sword Lord archetype +2 to Fight Defense when full attacking and reduce attack penalty by 2...so now 0 attack penalty to Fight Defensively)
2 Defensive Parry (Aldori Sword Lord archetype +2 untyped AC bonus vs. melee attacks when full attacking)
10+6+6+3+2+1+1+2+2+2=35 AC vs. melee 33 AC vs. ranged when full attacking (oh and Crane Wing to block one hit per round)
Touch is 27/25
Flatfooted is 18...
That's with limited money invested, but 3 feats and a fighter archetype that gives up Armor Training.
Easily pumped up with rings, increased enchantment of armor, amulet, etc.
EDIT:Main reason so little money to armor is he's been putting most of it into his sword, currently +4, nearly enough for +5.
can someone give me an example of making a higher ac light/med armor build than heavy armor?
Potentially? Outside of the certain magical items and mithral, light armor has a maximum potential of 8(4 AC, 4 dex), medium has a maximum potential of 9(6 AC, 3 dex), and heavy 10(9 AC, 1 dex). The heavy armor has the highest potential and the lowest necessary dexterity to reach it. Keep in mind the second highest potential without magic, is a mithral breastplate. If you can reach 20 dex you get its maximum potential AC, and you also get all the perks of having light armor and it can easily have 0 ACP meaning anyone can wear it without any penalty beyond arcane spellcasting failure(except monks... ofc.) Yay theorycraft?
The highest potentially is light armors actually thanks to Haramaki and Silken Ceremonial Armor. At a DEX score of 30, they will grant the same AC bonus as Mithril Fullplate (+11) and at a DEX of 32 pull ahead. Each has some pros and cons of course. The light armor wearer is going to have a miserable flat-footed AC, but his touch AC and mobility will be higher than the Fullplate wearer and they have no spell failure. The fullplate wearer has to also invest at least somewhat in DEX to achieve the +11 AC, which may detract from other focuses, while presumably a person choosing an uncapped DEX bonus armor was investing in it anyway.
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I hate saying it but yes.
When pathfinder took heavy armor away from most class it set this AC race in most games I saw. With the fall out being the folk high AC never getting attacked becuase the GM can never hit them. So then the GM gets bored and attack the low AC guy and smoke them. The AC gap as party should never to large form high to low. You want AC high but not to high that become unhitable. Because you still want the bad guys to swing at you not the rest of your team.
example
Fighter level 1 with Chain Mail, Tower Shield, DEX 13, Dodge AC of 22
Rouge Chain shirt & DEX 18= AC 18
Cleric Chain Mail, Heavy shiled, DEX 10= AC 18
Wizard Mage Armor & DEX 14= AC 16
Do see the gap of 4 and 6? What the first thing the Fighter want to do put on better armor so they get hit less often. Ok I see the point there. It makes sence of the surface but what happens. The fighter buys full plate after about 2nd level then fighter AC then JUMPS to AC of 25. This now make a 7 and 9 point gap between the fighter and rest of the party. That is to much so the fighter get ignored by the GM and the rest of the party becomes the targets and get hit whole sale. So the fighter build great AC build spending STAT points, Feats, and gold to get there AC up to the clouds but the GM never attack them. So it a waste or broken build. (not Broken that it to good but broken that it dose not work) You should look at the party not as individuals but as a group do not raise the top AC but raise the bottom to keep the gap small. So it dose become no brainer go attack the lightly armored AC guy.
And in any 3.0 or later era game squares of movement is huge giving up 2 squares for most folks is huge. It make the difference of move and attack vs Charge & Attack and loss 2 AC.
Also unless you multi class or spend feat most class do not have heavy armor proficienty only: Fighter, Paladian and Cavalier. This lead to more folk wearing lighter armor.
Truely the best defender I see at the gaming table is the Barbarian. It sound dum but real is it good. The Bardarian dose not have to charge as much due to it fast movement so it saves 2 AC. It has Acrobatics as a skill so it can turle up if it needs to. And it sucker GM in to swinging at them by giving them -2 AC while raging but also raising their HP by +4 per level. Also they have D12 hit dice vs D10's. And they only have Mediuma armor and most like do not use a shield so ther AC closer to the rest of the party so he gets swung at more offent there fore protecting the rest of the party more.
Hopefully with all the new base class coming out more of them will have heavy armor proficienty.
They have done good job on the light and medium balence with 7 class having light and 6 class having medium. Although the Magus who start out light rasie to heavy over it career. Right now you 4 class with no armor proficienty and 3 with heavy armor proficienty. So if you thow out the Magus as odd ball you are only out of balenced with no armor and the heavy armor by 1 class.
I don't know, that is something that kinda hit recently. A lot of builds I've seen emphasized on mobility and light encumbrance. When you think about it, it makes sense, since as an adventurer/explorer, you need to travel light so you don't get too heavy-loaded and/or in narrow passageways.
This what I'd like to ask: is heavy armor becoming outdated?
I'd love to play a Human Fighter with a Full Plate, Tower Shield, Bastard Sword and basically say "Come at me, bro!"... but in the end, I sink like a stone, I ring my arrival when sneaking, I plug corridors... it's just not practical...
So yeah, is heavy equipment such as a Full Plate becoming more of a novelty than an actual character specialty? While it's true that you never know how your DM is gonna map the world; you might never enter a single cave either. But still...
Tower Shields make you easier to hit.
Mithral Celestial Plate Armor is still awesome, but it's also light armor at the end of the day (medium armor if currently dispelled).|
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pathfinder is more complicated than attack vs AC. if there is an AC gap its not a big deal. If there is a problem in your game, perhaps you should look for other answers that PF can provide to the problem.
make encounters with more options, combat maneuvers,touch attacks, spells, traps, poison, puzzles, large numbers of opponents..
If you want to keep the vs AC thing going, enemies can aid another, flank, or trip.
if you are playing an AP post on their threads and leave proper feed back.
Tower Shields make you easier to hit.
Huh... how???
pathfinder is more complicated than attack vs AC. if there is an AC gap its not a big deal. If there is a problem in your game, perhaps you should look for other answers that PF can provide to the problem.
make encounters with more options, combat maneuvers,touch attacks, spells, traps, poison, puzzles, large numbers of opponents..
If you want to keep the vs AC thing going, enemies can aid another, flank, or trip.
if you are playing an AP post on their threads and leave proper feed back.
Woaw, woaw, woaw, woaw, hold on there...
I'm not complaining about the mecanics here or something related to my game or anything like that.
The thing I've noticed is that many players ditch heavy armor and shield for a lighter load, not to mention that heavy armor doesn't necessarily benefit in a lot of spelunking situations, hence the question: "did it become outdated?"
BTW, when armor training states that I can move at my normal speed while wearing heavy armor, does it include ANY speed, or just walking speed? Does it affect fly speeds and swim speeds as well?
BTW, when armor training states that I can move at my normal speed while wearing heavy armor, does it include ANY speed, or just walking speed? Does it affect fly speeds and swim speeds as well?
Since it doesn't specify any movement types, it would include all.
I've seen Paizo products with harpy fighters that were called out as having their full fly speed due to Armor Training.
BTW, when armor training states that I can move at my normal speed while wearing heavy armor, does it include ANY speed, or just walking speed? Does it affect fly speeds and swim speeds as well?Since it doesn't specify any movement types, it would include all.
I've seen Paizo products with harpy fighters that were called out as having their full fly speed due to Armor Training.
Alright, cool, thanks ^_^
Hello paladin/crusader-like winged aasimar fighter XD
Personally I suspect the board's focus on low-armor builds is because the kind of person who focuses on making a specific build is probably quite tactics-minded. They like to have options both in and outside of combat and the speed penalty and AP both reduce that.
Heavy armor builds (and to some extent Archery builds) are usually no-brainers. The feats and combat tactics are kinda obvious and require few trade-offs while mobility builds need to balance a lot of aspects, including AC, hit bonuses, damage bonuses, skill penalties, gold cost etc...
It's more of a challenge to make a mobility build and the kind of person who likes making builds likes challenges :)
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Tower Shields make you easier to hit.Huh... how???
pathfinder is more complicated than attack vs AC. if there is an AC gap its not a big deal. If there is a problem in your game, perhaps you should look for other answers that PF can provide to the problem.
make encounters with more options, combat maneuvers,touch attacks, spells, traps, poison, puzzles, large numbers of opponents..
If you want to keep the vs AC thing going, enemies can aid another, flank, or trip.
if you are playing an AP post on their threads and leave proper feed back.
Woaw, woaw, woaw, woaw, hold on there...
I'm not complaining about the mecanics here or something related to my game or anything like that.
The thing I've noticed is that many players ditch heavy armor and shield for a lighter load, not to mention that heavy armor doesn't necessarily benefit in a lot of spelunking situations, hence the question: "did it become outdated?"
BTW, when armor training states that I can move at my normal speed while wearing heavy armor, does it include ANY speed, or just walking speed? Does it affect fly speeds and swim speeds as well?
Sorry JiCi, i didn't mean to come off like that. using the loaded "your" was simply much easier than figuring out a better way to say it. although i was a bit off topic, i thought it would be where the thread was going.
anyway, i think part of this light armor > heavy armor view is due to awesome archetypes that drop armor prof. like lore warden and Kensai.
I like dwarven PCs in heavy armor with vital guard.
With a decent strength you can even climb in it after some levels.
Tower Shields make you easier to hit.Huh... how???
A tower shield caps your maximum dexterity modifier at +2. Armor Training does not improve it because it is not armor, it's a shield. Likewise it cannot be made out of mithral because it's specifically called out as being wooden (and a mithral tower shield would actually be just as heavy).
At the very lowest levels, you can get more AC with a tower shield, but you suffer a -2 to attack rolls while wielding a tower shield and it cannot be used for shield bash attacks. That means you're effectively giving an untyped +2 AC to anyone you're fighting. Then it has a -10 check penalty which never gets any better than -9.
By higher levels the tower shield actually lowers your AC because it's not that difficult to acquire Dexterity modifiers of +5 or better (if you begin with a 10, just the enhancement bonus and inherent bonuses will take your Dex to 20-21). A character that begins with a 14 Dexterity can comfortably support a Dexterity modifier of +8 or so by end game with only 1 ability bump placed into Dexterity.
EDIT: The long and short of it is that the tower shield holds you back if you're a fighter, and only gives an AC advantage at low levels if you A) have no dex mod to take advantage of, B) have up to a +2 in which case you're going to run out of tower shield AC modifiers much sooner since the moment you hit +3 the tower shield is beginning to hold you back, and by +4 you have same AC with a heavy shield without all the drawbacks.
Unless you are a Tower Shield Specialist, who gets both Armor Training and Tower Shield Training.
Unless you are a Tower Shield Specialist, who gets both Armor Training and Tower Shield Training.
Tower Shield Training only increases your armor's maximum dexterity bonus. You're still stuck with the +2 max Dex of your tower shield.
Also it forces you to be a fighter. :P
Also it forces you to be a fighter. :P
The biggest downside of them all...
Anyways, also a part of it actually. Fighters get the biggest mileage out of it imo(almost forced into it tbh, but that's another story). I usually don't think about taking armor proficiencies outside of what I get in class. I can get mithral breastplate without proficiency for pretty much all my characters, so just getting light isn't too awful(and like I said, I get all the perks that go with that). However, only 3 classes actually come with heavy armor from the start.
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On consideration, I can't for the life of me see any reason for the Tower Shield Training to work the way it does if it isn't supposed to affect the tower shield itself.
Why boost armor max dex if you will still be limited to the tower shield?
While I can certainly accept it may be how it is written, it is simply non-sense unless it also affects the tower shield.
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I think this picture sums it up nicely ...
Just cutting the ACPs in half would make a huge difference.
Also it forces you to be a fighter. :PThe biggest downside of them all...
Anyways, also a part of it actually. Fighters get the biggest mileage out of it imo(almost forced into it tbh, but that's another story). I usually don't think about taking armor proficiencies outside of what I get in class. I can get mithral breastplate without proficiency for pretty much all my characters, so just getting light isn't too awful(and like I said, I get all the perks that go with that). However, only 3 classes actually come with heavy armor from the start.
I believe that a character who only has Light Armor Proficiency due to their class (rogue, for example) still needs the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to wear Mithral Breastplate.
From the Mithral special material, pg 155 of the Core Rulebook:
Heavy armors are treated as medium, and medium armors are treated as light, but light armors are still treated as light. This decrease does not apply to proficiency in wearing the armor. A character wearing mithral full plate must be proficient in wearing heavy armor to avoid adding the armor's check penalty to all his attack rolls and skill checks that involve moving.
I believe that a character who only has Light Armor Proficiency due to their class (rogue, for example) still needs the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to wear Mithral Breastplate.
Yes, but if you reduce the ACP to zero, then there is effectively no penalty. The penalty for wearing armor you aren't proficient in is taking the ACP on attack rolls (and more skills, I think) ... if that number is zero, you're off the hook.
I believe that a character who only has Light Armor Proficiency due to their class (rogue, for example) still needs the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to wear Mithral Breastplate.Also it forces you to be a fighter. :PThe biggest downside of them all...
Anyways, also a part of it actually. Fighters get the biggest mileage out of it imo(almost forced into it tbh, but that's another story). I usually don't think about taking armor proficiencies outside of what I get in class. I can get mithral breastplate without proficiency for pretty much all my characters, so just getting light isn't too awful(and like I said, I get all the perks that go with that). However, only 3 classes actually come with heavy armor from the start.
You can wear it but you take penalties for not being proficient. Penalties are based off your armor check penalty. Mithral reduces your ACP to 1, and armor expert or the comfort quality(there are others, but those are go to) will reduce the armor penalty by one. 0 penalty for wearing the armor. Sure you don't know how, but its so light and easy to wear you don't need to know.
EDIT: The long and short of it is that the tower shield holds you back if you're a fighter, and only gives an AC advantage at low levels if you A) have no dex mod to take advantage of, B) have up to a +2 in which case you're going to run out of tower shield AC modifiers much sooner since the moment you hit +3 the tower shield is beginning to hold you back, and by +4 you have same AC with a heavy shield without all the drawbacks.
Don't forget that your tower shield, for 1500 (a mere pittance) can be made of mithral, making it lighter and higher dex bonus mod.
Most people I've seen go for tower shield builds are doing armored hulks or shield archetypes. And then they go for Mithral on both for the extra dex/weight limit. So while yes you can get a 20 Dex starting with a 0, you can also use those resources to get a +8 or 10 to Str and/or Con instead, and be satisfied with a 16 or 18 Dex. With the mithral, you're good up to an 18 dex without losing AC.
EDIT : The long and short of it is that you'd have to have at least a +7 Dex with the heavy shield for it to out perform the Tower Shield at a +4, due to the Tower Shield. But you can only get the heavy shield to +6 with mithral. So it evens out overall, and often is better with the Tower Shield, given you can get the same performance with a lower dex and putting your resources into STR and CON as a fighter.
Aren't tower shiekds made of wood?
On consideration, I can't for the life of me see any reason for the Tower Shield Training to work the way it does if it isn't supposed to affect the tower shield itself.
Why boost armor max dex if you will still be limited to the tower shield?
While I can certainly accept it may be how it is written, it is simply non-sense unless it also affects the tower shield.
Sadly, it's not the only archetype in Ultimate Combat that's written in a way which renders some of it's class abilities relatively useless.
Aren't tower shiekds made of wood?
The CRB does indeed specify that tower shields are made of wood, and thus can't be made out of mithril.
I'd also say that the -2 attack penalty does a lot to offset the (possible) AC gain in the overall picture. Especially since AC is just one of the defenses your enemies might target, while attack rolls are all of your offense for most classes that would use a tower shield.
Aren't tower shiekds made of wood?The CRB does indeed specify that tower shields are made of wood, and thus can't be made out of mithril.
I'd also say that the -2 attack penalty does a lot to offset the (possible) AC gain in the overall picture. Especially since AC is just one of the defenses your enemies might target, while attack rolls are all of your offense for most classes that would use a tower shield.
Grumble grumble.
Stupid darkwood, doesn't increase dex bonus, despite halving weight.
Forgot tower shields were wood. Every drawing they ever do shows a metal one.
Collapsible Mithral Tower Shield (specifically metal, limited tower time per day).
Force Shield (expensive, but it's a mithral tower shield)
Fortress Shield (arguably made of iron, given it says it turns into a cage of iron)
Roman tower shields were made of wood too. scutum A metal tower shield is way too heavy and unwieldly
Equalizer Shield is a mithril tower shield.
The Force Tower is also a mithral tower shield.
The Collapsible Tower is a steel heavy shield that transforms into a tower shield (which is not stated to be steel but could be argued to be steel). You should be able to make it out of mithral.
The Fortress Shield doesn't say the tower shield is metal, though it does transform into an iron box to protect you, so you could argue it is. If yes, then should be eligible for mithral.
Yes, but if you reduce the ACP to zero, then there is effectively no penalty. The penalty for wearing armor you aren't proficient in is taking the ACP on attack rolls (and more skills, I think) ... if that number is zero, you're off the hook.I believe that a character who only has Light Armor Proficiency due to their class (rogue, for example) still needs the Medium Armor Proficiency feat to wear Mithral Breastplate.
I did not know the check penalty of the breastplate offhand. I take it the bonuses for being masterwork (the default quality of mithral) are already baked into those for being mithral?