While not crummy, their spell list simply isnt as capable as the wizard list or the cleric list.
What is the reasoning behind this? I haven't found that to be true at all.
Because at high levels, being powerful isn't about defeating other creatures in combat. It's about defeating other creatures before combat even begins. Sun Tzu: "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."Even if that was true at high levels, it's not like the druid is lacking in that category.
I would say it is. The limited spell selection of the druid is probably its single greatest weakness. Where a wizard is getting "summon artillery platform," druids are restricted in being able only to summon beatsticks. A druid lacks most of the high level utility spells that wizards can use to take control of encounters before they start. They don't even have teleport for setting up scry-and-die raids.
I would say it is. The limited spell selection of the druid is probably its single greatest weakness. Where a wizard is getting "summon artillery platform," druids are restricted in being able only to summon beatsticks. A druid lacks most of the high level utility spells that wizards can use to take control of encounters before they start. They don't even have teleport for setting up scry-and-die raids.Because at high levels, being powerful isn't about defeating other creatures in combat. It's about defeating other creatures before combat even begins. Sun Tzu: "The supreme art of war is to subdue the enemy without fighting."Even if that was true at high levels, it's not like the druid is lacking in that category.
They still have transport via plants, and their summoning is still great.
I need some examples of these must-have-spells
Seriously though, it seems like you could easily run a party of just druids from 1-20.
For what mechanical reason do you choose not to play a druid?
An intense dislike for prep casting, alignment issues, summoning, and wild shape.
Mechanically? Not every adventure is written for druids.
Druids are awesome because...
-Most of the time, Wild Shape trumps every other class in terms of scouting. It also lets you fly without taking precious spell slots and Earth Glide is stupid-good.
-Spontaneous Summoning? Yes, please!
-They get to add another character to the party in the form of a companion and they have solid defenses to boot.
Paizo just needs to give them a Haste equivalent like they gave clerics and I would agree with the OP.
A druid lacks most of the high level utility spells that wizards can use to take control of encounters before they start. They don't even have teleport for setting up scry-and-die raids.They still have transport via plants, and their summoning is still great.
I need some examples of these must-have-spells
Restricting myself only to 7th level or thereabouts, and to the wizard's list:
Simulacrum: Make an army of casters to support you or to act in your stead while the baddies attack them instead.
Ethereal Jaunt: There's no such thing as a barrier.
Temporary Resurrection: Oh, one of your party members went down? Good thing I'm not a druid, or he'd be coming back two days from now as a goblin.
Teleport, Greater: So I can get him back to the cleric for a real raise dead spell.
Arcane Sight, Greater: So I know instantly and exactly what buffs you have.
Summon Monster VII: I don't even need to memorize dimensional anchor. I have staff for that. Oh, you don't even have dimensional anchor? Well, you at least have staff. What can your brachiosaurus cast?
Instant Summons: Damn, I left that Artifact of Instant Victory at home. Oh, here it is.
Plane Shift: For when I need to go somewhere where I can have two weeks of crafting time in the next ten minutes. Or when I need to drop someone off there so he can die of old age over the next week.
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That's not a full list, of course. But it can get you started.
The druid is a fun class. It takes a spreadsheet to play though, if you intend to use Wild Shape at all. In addition, its play changes significantly after you invest in Wild Shape, so much so that it can be similar to playing two different classes.
Those, to me, are its greatest drawbacks. On top of this, you're juggling a prepared spell list and so forth. If you add summons, it's more.
It is a nice class, though. I would say there are other classes, however, which will challenge it.
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For what mechanical reason do you choose not to play a druid?
Well I'm a cleric, which is probably the closest class to druid, so let's take a look:
I wear a mithral breastplate for decent AC while maintaining full movement speed. Druids can't do that.
I use a longsword (deity's favored weapon). Druids can't do that, either.
Most combats, I cast divine favor on round one. Druids can't do that.
I get heroism as a domain spell, not to mention a swift action aura of heroism. Not available to druids, as far as I know.
Same goes for my ability to add my level to social skills several times per day.
Channel energy, when you get to add your level to the damage against undead and they don't get their channel resistance on their save, is a non-trivial thing unavailable to druids.
Breath of life. Dismissal. Plane shift. Blindness/deafness. Remove blindness/deafness. Remove curse. Restoration. Holy smite. Break enchantment. Slay living.
Should I continue?
agreed.
fly away?
earth glide UNDER the foe - while he cant do anything?
That's kind of it in a nutshell. Getafix* says "fly away" and "earth glide," while Gandalf suggests "Teleport" "Plane Shift," or "Ethereal Jaunt." Oh, or "fly away" or "earth glide" if he's slumming.
Getafix, of course, has the resource advantage; he didn't have to memorize an earth glide spell this morning so he can use the slot for something else. Druids are incredibly resource-efficient. But don't confuse better-mileage with higher-performance. If I know what's coming, and a well-played wizard like Gandalf can do just that, then I should be able to prepare more powerful spells from a more flexible list.
* or Panoramix if you prefer the original French
A druid lacks most of the high level utility spells that wizards can use to take control of encounters before they start. They don't even have teleport for setting up scry-and-die raids.They still have transport via plants, and their summoning is still great.
I need some examples of these must-have-spells
Restricting myself only to 7th level or thereabouts, and to the wizard's list:
Simulacrum: Make an army of casters to support you or to act in your stead while the baddies attack them instead.
Ethereal Jaunt: There's no such thing as a barrier.
Temporary Resurrection: Oh, one of your party members went down? Good thing I'm not a druid, or he'd be coming back two days from now as a goblin.
Teleport, Greater: So I can get him back to the cleric for a real raise dead spell.
Arcane Sight, Greater: So I know instantly and exactly what buffs you have.
Summon Monster VII: I don't even need to memorize dimensional anchor. I have staff for that. Oh, you don't even have dimensional anchor? Well, you at least have staff. What can your brachiosaurus cast?
Instant Summons: Damn, I left that Artifact of Instant Victory at home. Oh, here it is.
Plane Shift: For when I need to go somewhere where I can have two weeks of crafting time in the next ten minutes. Or when I need to drop someone off there so he can die of old age over the next week.
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That's not a full list, of course. But it can get you started.
Simulacrum: Waste of money
Ethereal Jaunt: Earth glide basically covers this. They can shape any other barrier out of the way.
Temporary resurrection: Why are people dying?
Teleport, greater: Transport via plants can be used to the same effect with a bag of holding and two ferns.
Arcane Sight, Greater: Who cares what buffs people have?
Summon Monster VII: Oh well I guess the druid does have problems preventing some things from running away.
Instant summons: Between the animal companion and the druid someone can just carry the item.
Plane Shift: Ok the time stuff is BS, you need a particular object to get to any particular plane (a forked metal rod attuned to the plane of travel). But yeah it's difficult for druids to go to other planes.
Simulacrum: Waste of money
Blood money: Free spells whenever I want them. You should try it. Oh, wait, you can't. Why didn't you pick a class with a real spell list?
Simulacrum: Waste of moneyBlood money: Free spells whenever I want them. You should try it. Oh, wait, you can't. Why didn't you pick a class with a real spell list?
Haha. Wizards don't have enough strength to finish a casting of Simulacrum with Blood money.
If we're allowing random sources like that then the druid crushes the wizard in shear spell bulk. While the wizard is still struggling to even find more spells.
the glory domain you mention is available... if you give up the Ac... as a lion shaman.
I really don't like giving up the AC.
Speaking of archetypes my buddy tried to help his GF make a druid, but he forgot how PF wildshape works. So we have a gnome (racial alternative for WIS bonus) with like 6-8 strength who won't leave her animal companion mount out of fear. Oh and she has some random archetype that makes her better at summoning dinosaurs at the cost of better class features. */rant*
Rex is fond of druid! Druid means STOMPING THINGS!
Rex not understand silly rules for wildshape. Only want one shape.
Shape with biggest STOMPAGE!
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That's kind of it in a nutshell. Getafix* says "fly away" and "earth glide," while Gandalf suggests "Teleport" "Plane Shift," or "Ethereal Jaunt." Oh, or "fly away" or "earth glide" if he's slumming.
Gandalf has one solution for everything.
Simulacrum: Waste of moneyBlood money: Free spells whenever I want them. You should try it. Oh, wait, you can't. Why didn't you pick a class with a real spell list?Haha. Wizards don't have enough strength to finish a casting of Simulacrum with Blood money.
If we're allowing random sources like that then the druid crushes the wizard in shear spell bulk. While the wizard is still struggling to even find more spells.
Umm... they absolutely do. If you haven't seen my list by now which gets to 51 STR for Wish duplicating Simulacrum without relying on Magic Jar or Marionette Possession, both of which make it super easy I'll reproduce it below.
9 Base STR
+10 size Form of the Dragon 3
+10 morale Blood Rage
+2 profane Succubus Boon (Ideally off a Simulacrum, but a quick summon works to).
+6 enhancement (Belt of Physical Perfection, make it yourself on the cheap.)
+8 inherent Blood Reservoir of Physical Prowess is a +8 Inherent option for 2k Price on the cheap.)
+6 Ring of Inner Fortitude (effectively) =
51 or 25,000 worth of material components and 1 STR left (cause it would suck to fall to 0 while casting).
Druids are good don't get me wrong, but their spell lists gets weak towards the end.
And really, why aren't you playing a half-elf Lunar Oracle? Do you not want *all* the spells while being a pseudo-druid?
Idk if lacking in exploits is the same thing as weak.
EDIT: Also even with high strength the wizard has no way to heal the str damage outside of natural resting. (magic jar could work though)
Of course Druids aren't better than all classes because there's the wizard, the undisputed best and most OP class, and the summoner, which shouldn't exist and is also OP.
You'll need to explain your answer about wizards.
Summoners are basically just weaker druids.
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Summoners are basically just weaker druids.I believe that you made a typo Marthkus. Should that read
Summoners are basically just stronger druids.
?
Or have you not played a Summoner.
Because they get standard action Summon Monster at the same level a wizard would be using 3+highest stat/day Summon Monster is better than Summon Nature's Ally because the latter summons beatsticks, and the former summons mobile assault platforms.
They get a beatstick eidolon much like the druid gets a beatstick animal companion, but the eidolon can be large sized without problems of getting places because they can be dismissed and resummoned to get in places they can't normally get, can be used as skill monkeys with little investment, and have infinite flavor options.
The Summoner gets high-quality spells at earlier-than-normal levels (See haste) and can be a buffer or battlefield controller while the eidolon is fighting. The Summoner is worse than the druid in melee maybe, but not nearly worse as a caster.
Healing is where a druid only party really fails (until 13th level and the heal spell of course). They're well under Clerics, Oracles, Paladins, and even Bards in that respect.
Idk if lacking in exploits is the same thing as weak.
EDIT: Also even with high strength the wizard has no way to heal the str damage outside of natural resting. (magic jar could work though)
Ya, if only there were creatures that could cast Heal or use Heal as a SLA... there probably aren't any. Certainly none that can be summoned via Summon Monster... definitely not.
Let's be fair, in an anti magic field they are a 3/4 BAB combatant with at best Hide armor and a smattering of not so stellar weapons who most likely has no real combat feats beyond power attack to help their non shifted combat. It's all about the pet in that case. It's almost always about the pet!What about an anti magic zone, the inability to utilize metal equipment, or the lack of martial abilities. My local GM will throw just about anything at you and litter ally anything, so having a varied party is essential for survival.In an anti-magic zone they are still a 3/4 BAB class in medium armor with a decent strength score and an animal companion. They are only prohibited from wearing metal armor or using a metal shield. They are also proficient in plenty of martial weapons.
My 3.5 druid with riding dog AC was marching at the end of our group of PCs going down a winding staircase in a dungeon. CLANG! A trap is sprung and my druid is isolated from the rest of the group by falling bars (or somesuch) at the same time that an antimagic field goes off. Unfortunately, I was carrying a magically suspended troll in one of my magical compartments (don't ask) that was now quite animated and aggravated with me. I had zip that I could do to it except try to beat it with my wooden club (highly ineffective, let me tell you). If it wasn't for my beast of an AC I would have been troll bait, literally.
Summoners are basically just weaker druids.I believe that you made a typo Marthkus. Should that readSummoners are basically just stronger druids.Or have you not played a Summoner.
Because they get standard action Summon Monster at the same level a wizard would be using 3+highest stat/day Summon Monster is better than Summon Nature's Ally because the latter summons beatsticks, and the former summons mobile assault platforms.
They get a beatstick eidolon much like the druid gets a beatstick animal companion, but the eidolon can be large sized without problems of getting places because they can be dismissed and resummoned to get in places they can't normally get, can be used as skill monkeys with little investment, and have infinite flavor options.
The Summoner gets high-quality spells at earlier-than-normal levels (See haste) and can be a buffer or battlefield controller while the eidolon is fighting. The Summoner is worse than the druid in melee maybe, but not nearly worse as a caster.
I've played a master summoner. The problem with summoners is that they are personally squishy and have fewer spells than a druid.
Now excluding master summoner, druid summoning wins out through shear bulk. Furthermore without an eidolon out the summoner is no where near comparable to a druid. Summoners gets some nice spells, but it is a very limited list compared to the druid, has less spell levels, and less spells slots. The eidolon is hands down better than the druids animal companion, but a druid's AC doesn't share equipment slots like the eidolon and the summoner. So a summoner with a tough eidolon makes himself even more squishy.
A druid is like a combination of the master summoner and synthesis archetypes, taking the important elements (lots of summons and tackiness) while limiting the exploitative nature of those (less hordes and no stat replacing).
Now I think a master summoner can tangle with the druid as a powerhouse from 1-20, but they are still squishy where a druid is wildshaped.
Ya, if only there were creatures that could cast Heal or use Heal as a SLA... there probably aren't any. Certainly none that can be summoned via Summon Monster... definitely not.Idk if lacking in exploits is the same thing as weak.
EDIT: Also even with high strength the wizard has no way to heal the str damage outside of natural resting. (magic jar could work though)
Fair enough.
Healing is where a druid only party really fails (until 13th level and the heal spell of course). They're well under Clerics, Oracles, Paladins, and even Bards in that respect.
Wasn't there math somewhere that showed a paladin actually heals more than a cleric?
Druids cannot cast Interplanetary Teleport, your argument is invalid.
A party of 3 druids and one Wizard, however, might just be balanced.
Transport via plants had no range limit. Now what plants are on other planets...
Healing is where a druid only party really fails (until 13th level and the heal spell of course). They're well under Clerics, Oracles, Paladins, and even Bards in that respect.
In my games, I'm the Druid and the healer, using a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and considering upgrading to CMW soon. In-combat healing isn't something you want often, out-of-combat healing is just fine with a wand and Druids get (Lesser) Restoration for ability damage.
I really don't think we would gain many benefits from a cleric. (Thinking about it, we would gain very few mechanical benefits since channel has no offensive use in our campaign. Mostly just a different spell list.)
Healing is where a druid only party really fails (until 13th level and the heal spell of course). They're well under Clerics, Oracles, Paladins, and even Bards in that respect.In my games, I'm the Druid and the healer, using a Wand of Cure Light Wounds and considering upgrading to CMW soon. In-combat healing isn't something you want often, out-of-combat healing is just fine with a wand and Druids get (Lesser) Restoration for ability damage.
I really don't think we would gain many benefits from a cleric. (Thinking about it, we would gain very few mechanical benefits since channel has no offensive use in our campaign. Mostly just a different spell list.)
Using wands of CMW wouldn't be really "upgrading" in terms of bang for your buck, as that will always be wands of CLW (unless they make another first level healing spell that manages to out-heal it). So the only benefit is in combat healing, which might be a reason to pick up a wand of CMW, but really, the best bet for your standard healing wand will be CLW.
I've read Cthulhu's stats, I think everyone is dead in that situation.
I've read Cthulhu's stats, I think everyone is dead in that situation.Not if the Cleric or Wizard casts plane shift. Oh wait, you are all druids. You can't.
Chances are if you are close enough to say hi, you are close enough to have to make the saving throw.
(Provided everyone is not dead a druid can just earth glide into the ground and break the line of effect)
Because I want to hit things with my sharp, pointy, metal stick.
Because I like raging, and hitting things with my big, choppy, metal plate-on-a-stick.
Because I was to scream "magic missile!" while I point at people and punch holes in them.
Because I want to yell "sneak attack!" just before driving a sharp stick between some one's ribs and out his left eye socket, while stealing his partner's pants, and before vanishing into the shadows, all while in an anti-magic field.
Because I want to know everything about everything, and sing about in a way that makes everyone- including druids- happier about stabbing people with sticks.
Because I want to charge nine thousand feet this round, and use my right ear as a natural weapon, while yelling "leaping ear spin attack!"
Because you can spin a bow around you finger and sheath it in a hip holster after an awesome critical hit.
Because "whoosh" is an arcane sound effect.
Because "hack-hack" and "slashy" are cool names for swords, but not cool names for claws.
Alright, not all mechanical reasons.
Not necessarily.Chances are if you are close enough to say hi, you are close enough to have to make the saving throw.
(Provided everyone is not dead a druid can just earth glide into the ground and break the line of effect)
"Magical silence, 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal (or a thin sheet of lead), or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks the spell."
I think we're good.
I entered a PVP tourney when the colossal red dragon came out with it as a prize. I played Druid/Master of Many Forms.
After 12 hours of play, I bowed out at third place. I was a shapeshifted Tarrasque with the benifits of invisible stalker and the two wizards battleing out just started ignoring me.
I even shifted to a prismatic dragon and I was completely outclassed by the wizards.
In 3.5...
In 3.5...
Yes sir, and Druids have been nerfed in the different editions.