So I have been taking a long look at the Skald and I think it looks like a strong support class of a different nature. Typically I do not like playing a support class as many of them don't do a lot besides support. But the Skald is one that can get involved and up in the enemy's face. This appeals to me. That, and I have a particular concept in mind.
I don't have a game in mind that I would play this for so this is really just some theory-crafting and thought experiments. Also, I imagine others may have a similar concept in mind so it might help to collect all of our ideas in one place.
I haven't settled on a race yet but the concept I have in mind is a walking banner aura of buffs that spurs his allies into a battle frenzy. I would also strongly prefer this guy be a mounted type. So I was looking at a few things for this build:
1. Skald
I muchly prefer this over Bard for this build. They seem more warrior-like and the rage song fits the concept well. None of the archetypes really appeal to me for this build. Most of the levels of this build will be spent on Skald. The mounted and animal companion rage powers appeal to me. As do some of the party buff type rage powers. Actually, I could probably use some advice on rage powers.
2. I need some way of obtaining a mount (Cavalier)
Most preferably a mount that levels with me. That doesn't leave a lot of options. However, the option that seems most suitable to the concept is definitely the Cavalier. A mounted party buff banner type. I have looked over the archetypes and while the Beast Rider looks good it gets rid of a very important class ability: Expert Trainer. I think I'm kinda going to need that to continue advancing my mount as it is required for the Horse Master feat. I am thinking of cutting off at level 5 here. That is when the class gets the Banner ability. Cutting off at 4 is another option as that is when it gets Expert Trainer. However, if I am going to 4 anyway I might as well get that extra level.
I would prefer that the mount be something particularly more beastly and war-like than a horse. Any kind of Dinosaur seems fitting as do Megafauna. I have a particular liking for Trex though. I could give the mount a "one big bite" build. Anything that gets bonuses while charging could also be effective. I am also considering the Megaraptor. Of course with this list of mounts you are likely seeing the issue being that of DM needing to approve it. This would likely require some background story as to why this kind of mount would be typical for his environment. I think I can cover that. I would like to have the character hail from a savage war tribe. I'm thinking like the ones from Marvel Comics Savage Lands.
I looked at other ways of getting a mount but I'm not sure any of them are very fitting. Also, it is increasingly difficult to find one that continues to advance while having the main class be Skald. I am open to other ideas if you have them, though.
3. Feats: Flag Bearer, Battle Cry, etc.
These feats appeal to me. I imagine the character using a spear anyway so this is perfect. Actually, later on I could see the character using a transformative spear that can be turned into a lance for charging as well. While the passive bonuses of Battle Cry do not stack with a lot of what this build would already offer, the active effect of re-rolling saves seems wildly helpful.
4. Battle Herald
Well, if I am going with Skald and Cavalier anyway then this seems like a natural progression. The interaction of how this class's Inspiring Command ability works with Raging Song is pretty wonky. I am kinda feeling that figuring out how that works may not be worth taking the class over. However, maybe I'm missing something fairly obvious here?
It is probably better to continue with Skald as it continues spell progression and Raging Song progression.
5. Mammoth Rider
Yep. A single level into this Prestige Class seems very beneficial. I can't see justifying more than a single level into this though.
6. Equipment
So there is a ton of great equipment that could really compliment this build. The Banner of Ancient Kings seems great. I'm fairly certain that RAW supports the Skald being a "Bard" but if it didn't I can't imagine a DM having an issue with it. Champion's Banner seems good but only if it could be combined with the Banner of Ancients Kings. If I have to choose one, I would definitely choose the Banner of Ancient Kings. Furious and Courageous look good. Rhinohide and Harmonizing armor seem fitting. If I could manage to work in Rallying for some kind of shield (a buckler maybe?) then that could be helpful. I am sure I am missing more.
I think I am really just looking for some tools to throw into this toolbox. Some kogs for this wheelhouse. ...and other anecdotal analogies.
Right now I am thinking of building this on a chassis of: Skald 14, Cavalier 5, Mammoth Rider 1 in no particular order.
Thoughts?
Oh. And Lingering Song. I can't forget that. Very important to this concept.
So since this character gains a Morale bonus on Strength he increases that by half the weapon's Enhancement bonus with the Courageous enchant? So he would be stacking the morale bonus to attack from the banner with the strength bonus of his rage song, correct? Stronk.
Any other good Morale boni I am missing?
Mmm... yeah. You are correct. No major loss there I think because of the complicated interaction between Bard Song (or Rage Song for that matter) and Inspiring Command or lack thereof.
While Evangelist is good (great for a summoner build!) I don't think it is right for this build. It doesn't really add anything that I'm looking for and the song abilities don't really stack. Hrm... or wait. Do they? Actually, I think they would if you "twist" your bard songs with lingering song. Not sure it is worth it though.
Any other thoughts? You are my one single reply. I don't want to scare you off. I LOVE you, Godferret! Don't leave me, your fuzzyness!
There has been a lot of talk about how good Battle Cry is. I'm not even sure of how high of a priority this should be for a Skald, especially one who is definitely getting Flag Bearer.
In fact, I'm thinking most Bards would skip it due to their built in ability to liberally hand out Morale bonuses. It seems a bit redundant.
Am I wrong? Am I missing something? Thoughts? Opinions?
Ok, just realized that the mounted type rage powers would be silly to get on a Skald because they give it to their mount for free anyway. Moving on...
Mounted powers make sense if you grab them with Extra Rage Power. Battlecry is for the party rerolls, not the bonus on saves.
You can get a Mount through the Animal Ally feat, which requires Nature's Soul. It levels a -3 of your level, but you can then pick up Boon Companion for full level progression.
It's best to use a small race so you can get a nice wolf.
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2) you could go for animal ally feat, boon companion it to full level if you want.
2b) as for a cool mount. going half-orc they have the feat beast rider which gives you exactly what you wanted. this also could replace boon companion and the mount will only be 1 level behind, I feel that fine.
So for 3 feats you can have an animal companion of the cool sort that stays with your level while going 100% skald.
5) mammoth rider is cool, but you don't get reduce animal to help it fit a bit better when you need it to. And huge is REALLY hard to get around since it's bad enough with a large mount.
if you do go cavalier any, or three levels of inquisitor(sacred hunter) or 3 of hunter you can get amplified rage and share it with your animal companion. Getting an extra +4 for str and con while on your mount is pretty nice. Also going 1 level of barbarian or bloodrager will give you a "better" rage. since you can use that rages boost while still not being fatigued afterwards. A skald doesn't reach a +4 str & con till lv 8. and you can have it as early as lv2 being used by your rage song.
Secret Wizard: Thank you. I somehow missed that feat. That is actually really valuable. That is a lot of feats to spend though. I'm not sure if that is worth it. Also nothing on the list of critters appeals to me.
shroudb: Is there now? That could possibly rekindle my interest in Battle Herald. Maybe. I still do not completely understand how their complicated interaction between Bard Song (or Rage Song for that matter) and Inspiring Courage works.
Chess Pwn: Well, I didn't really want to go Half/Orcish for this build. I know it would work well but I think I have my heart set on Human. Besides, I'll likely need as many bonus feats as I can squeeze out.
Oh, also... spell kenning would allow access to reduce animal. I had thought of that. I would probably get a wand for it if it is ruled that spell kenning would allow use of it.
You bring up some other interesting options, though. The Sacred Huntsmaster Inquisitor could given an animal companion, true. The problem is there is still no way (short of orcishness) to make that animal companion level with me. Its too bad too, because the that class has some abilities that would really help the build for a single level dip. A single level of Inquisitor spells is nice, Monster Lore is helpful, Orisons I wouldn't get otherwise, Stern Gaze is right up the line of Rage Powers I was considering. And Domains/Inquisitions... there are some decent ones for a 1 level dip. The Anger Inquisition comes to mind.
I can't see going 3 levels deep into the class though. In fact, while your suggestions are solid I don't think I would use them. I don't mean to take away the worthiness of your suggestion but there are issues with it for what I have in mind. Namely, it would require to great an investment in the classes and make me have to spend a feat for the character and the animal companion.
What I am thinking of right now is going with 5 levels of Gendarme Order of the Beast (ACG) Cavalier. That would give 2 bonus feats from a list of feats that I would want to get feats from anyway, Banner, Mount, Expert Trainer, Wild Empathy and some other Cavalier crap that I don't really care about.
The biggest problem with this plan is that all of the stuff I want to use as a mount starts off as Medium. I am willing to bet that many DMs would not allow a Cavalier with a "Mount" class ability to gain an animal companion that can't yet be used as a Mount. Perhaps I could convince them with backstory and character concept and plan, but I would rather not have to rely on that. I mean, I would allow it as a DM just because the idea of it sounds cool and there really is no balance issue involved.
Rage Powers that I am considering:
Intimidating Glare, Terrifying Howl - This works great with Dirge of Doom past 10th level Skald. Basically as a full round action you can make all foes within 30ft. shaken automatically and with a failed save make them all panicked for 1d4+1 rounds.
Superstition, Eater of Magic, Witch Hunter - Eater of Magic works so well with Battle Cry!
Moment of Clarity
Feats that this would need:
Flag Bearer
Lingering Performance
Battle Cry
Horse Master
Mounted Combat
Ride By Attack
Spirited Charge
Power Attack
Spear Dancer could be cool if I can manage to work in Weapon Focus.
Discordant Voice would be good later on if I have room for it.
Extra Performance would be good if I find myself running out of performances. However, with Lingering Performance I'm not sure if that will be an issue.
Question: If a Skald takes the Raging Vitality feat does everyone who benefits from their Raging Song get the benefit of it?
shroudb: Thank you so much for pointing that out! I can't see not getting that with any one of the builds I'm considering. Great catch!
By the way, it doesn't really "grant" a rage power, it replaces one you already have with one usable by a 4th level Skald. Still good though. I can think of some beneficial options. Hell, I could take out Moment of Clarity and put that on it. Or I could give it Lesser Celestial totem for when healing is done. Meh.
Hm. Neat trick with Community Minded. Not sure if the trait is worth it over the feat. I'll have to consider it.
The more I think about Beast Rider the more it looks like the way to go. I could probably settle for a Triceratops. It wouldn't be my first choice, but it is still an effective one. I think I would prefer an Allosaurus. Triceratops is probably even with it on the charge though.
I suppose I could always go Human for flavor and take Racial Heritage or Adopted instead. Of course then I'm giving up the free human feat just for the opportunity to spend an additional feat on Beast Rider. Hm... I don't suppose there is any way to do this via the Adopted trait, is there?
4. Battle Herald
Well, if I am going with Skald and Cavalier anyway then this seems like a natural progression. The interaction of how this class's Inspiring Command ability works with Raging Song is pretty wonky. I am kinda feeling that figuring out how that works may not be worth taking the class over. However, maybe I'm missing something fairly obvious here?It is probably better to continue with Skald as it continues spell progression and Raging Song progression.
Battle Herald requires Inspire Courage, which Skalds do not get. Too bad, because it seems like a fun version of the PRC
Not Skald related, but if you're looking for a different spin on a Battle Herald, try the Evangelist Cleric Archetype, which does get Inspire Courage along with some other Bardic Performances.
advanced class origins states:
"The following table lists prestige classes from the Pathfinder RPG Core Rulebook or Pathfinder Campaign Setting: Paths of Prestige (marked with an asterisk
in this case inspire rage/inspire courage
2) you could go for animal ally feat, boon companion it to full level if you want.
2b) as for a cool mount. going half-orc they have the feat beast rider which gives you exactly what you wanted. this also could replace boon companion and the mount will only be 1 level behind, I feel that fine.
So for 3 feats you can have an animal companion of the cool sort that stays with your level while going 100% skald.
I like THIS some much I might steal it for my own skald.
Pendagast: Ah. Well, then. Nice catch.
Make you a deal here, we aren't stealing anything, we are all just sharing here. :) If you have a similar idea, post your thoughts here. It might inspire us.
@Lune:
I have a couple of Skald characters (both half-orcs): Klujjen (level 2, for PbP) and Barachûrg (level 1, for PFS). I built them on suggestions from others and the main idea for both is to be more like a barbarian build, with lots of strength. So he can buff his allies get mixed up in combat way more often than bards normally would.
They've been good so far. The cunning plan, for both characters are along these lines:
(etcetera, etcetera)
Those may or may not be the sorts of things you're looking for in a Skald...
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Here's a great trick your Skald can use with his dino pet and longspear. I can confirm, from lots of actual play, that this approach is outrageously effective.
Ginkos: ...that is brilliant! That gives the Amlified Rage Teamwork Feat to everyone that can see and hear the character!
The only issue is that it gets rid of a mount. That probably isn't a big deal for most characters but it is pivotal to this concept. In fact, one of the biggest problems for this build is finding a way to obtain a mount and keep it leveling with you.
Of course, the other huge problem with that concept is that it is 3rd party. In fact, that might be one reason why it is so powerful. :(
Xunal: Skald's Vigor is good but for a build relying on Lingering Song it decreases it's usefulness. The rest of what you say is good but I don't think I will be able to fit it in with having to spend feats to get a mount that levels with me.
Heh, Magda. I saw that post when you made it. I have spent much time thinking about it. Those kinds of things are likely to come later in the build.
@Lune: That's fair enough. Just thought I'd toss those two out there in the hopes it might give you some useful ideas.
They are good ideas. Let me ask this: Do you think you would get more milage out of Extra Performance or Lingering Performance?