Nodachi vs. Greatsword: What does the math say?


Advice


I'm designing a couple of big hitting martials (a bloodrager and a TWW Fighter) and am trying to decide between using a greatsword or a nodachi as the characters' preferred weapons. I'm leaning toward the nodachi because of the extra crit range, but am curious; what does the math say? Both characters will have the improved critical feat.

Scarab Sages

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The Nodachi will be be better once your static bonuses become high enough. With a TWW Fighter or Bloodrager, that will be pretty quickly. Nodachi also has brace, giving it a little more utility.

For what it's worth, a Falcata used in two hands will be better than both in later levels.

Dark Archive

iirc, the math has shown that after a certain point, the bigger crit range definitely pulls ahead. It's not a big difference either way, though.


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Math:
% of People who know what a Greatsword looks like, and might think it's cool: 99%

% of People who know what a Nodachi looks like, and might think it's cool: ~30%

Greatsword > Nodachi


Imbicatus wrote:

The Nodachi will be be better once your static bonuses become high enough. With a TWW Fighter or Bloodrager, that will be pretty quickly. Nodachi also has brace, giving it a little more utility.

For what it's worth, a Falcata used in two hands will be better than both in later levels.

Except that a Falcata costs a extra feat.

Sovereign Court

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Ignoring the nodachi's brace feature, the greatsword does 7 damage vs the nodachi's 5.5 damage.

Therefore the extra crit would have to give at least 1.5 extra damage on average.

Without keen/improved crit, the extra static damage would need to be X in the formula 1.1*(7+X)=1.15*(5.5+X)

In this case X is a hair under 28. So the nodachi becomes worth it sans doubling you crit chance when your static damage is 28+.

With keen/improved crit, the extra static damage would need to be X in the formula 1.2*(7+X)=1.3*(5.5+X)

In this case X is a hair over 12. So the nodachi becomes worth it after doubling your crit change when your static damage is 13+.

So - now that you have the #'s - you can make an informed decision. (Though of note - I didn't caculate in any extra crit feats you may have to make you more likely to confirm crits or any additional advantages.)

(Also again - remember - the nodachi does have the additional benefit of being able to brace it, though that doesn't come up very often.)


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Brace is a highly under valued ability. The look on new dms faces when you break it out against the first charging goblin is priceless.

Scarab Sages

DrDeth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The Nodachi will be be better once your static bonuses become high enough. With a TWW Fighter or Bloodrager, that will be pretty quickly. Nodachi also has brace, giving it a little more utility.

For what it's worth, a Falcata used in two hands will be better than both in later levels.

Except that a Falcata costs a extra feat.

At the level when Falcata pulls ahead, you can afford the feat for it, especially with the Fighter build.


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All other bonuses being the same, they are less than 1 point per round different, from level 1 to level 8, even after Improved Crit at level 8. At level 10, the nodachi pulls ahead to just over 1 point per round, and it gradually increases after that, but I don't see it getting beyond 2 points different with all other factors being equal. (It's almost like the Devs planned it that way, or something.)

Assuming full BAB, Power Attack, weapon specialization (level 4) and rage capability, here's the breakdown (18 STR, CR=level +1, no concealment/mirror image/DR/etc. considered):

Level 1 through level 4 (weapon focus, rage, PA):
Great sword: 13.9 DPR
Nodachi: 13.3 DPR

Level 4: (add PA bump, +1 weapon)
Great sword: 15.7 DPR
Nodachi: 15.9 DPR

Level 6 (Add weapon spec, first iterative, +2 STR)
Great sword: 32.3 DPR
Nodachi: 33.1 DPR

Level 8 (Add improved crit, PA bump)
Great sword: 32.5 DPR
Nodachi: 33.5 DPR
(There's always a drop in DPR at level 8/CR 9 because there's a jump in monster average AC; this effectively cancels the effect of the PA bump and the improved crit.)

Level 10 (Add +2 to STR, +1 to weapon)
Great sword: 42.7 DPR
Nodachi: 44.1 DPR

Level 12 (Add 2nd iterative, PA bump, +1 to weapon)
Great sword: 50.2 DPR
Nodachi: 51.5 DPR

Net result? use whatever you want.


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Xexyz wrote:
I'm designing a couple of big hitting martials (a bloodrager and a TWW Fighter) and am trying to decide between using a greatsword or a nodachi as the characters' preferred weapons. I'm leaning toward the nodachi because of the extra crit range, but am curious; what does the math say? Both characters will have the improved critical feat.

TWW fighter is the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype: you can't do that with a two-handed weapon.

Did you mean Two-Handed Fighter instead?


Gwen Smith wrote:
Xexyz wrote:
I'm designing a couple of big hitting martials (a bloodrager and a TWW Fighter) and am trying to decide between using a greatsword or a nodachi as the characters' preferred weapons. I'm leaning toward the nodachi because of the extra crit range, but am curious; what does the math say? Both characters will have the improved critical feat.

TWW fighter is the Two-Weapon Warrior archetype: you can't do that with a two-handed weapon.

Did you mean Two-Handed Fighter instead?

DERP!

Yes, I meant Two-handed fighter. I always screw that acronym up.

Also, thanks for the math! That's what I was looking for.

Scarab Sages

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I'd go with the Nodachi because crits are fun, and more crits are more fun.


Yeah, even though the math and statistics are technically against what I am saying, I feel like I have critical threats come up significantly more often with a Nodachi with Improved Critical than a Greatsword with Improved Critical. I realize that all math and statistics disprove this, and as a man of science I should disregard my gut...but dammit higher crit range weapons just seem to work out better.

Scarab Sages

Claxon wrote:
Yeah, even though the math and statistics are technically against what I am saying, I feel like I have critical threats come up significantly more often with a Nodachi with Improved Critical than a Greatsword with Improved Critical. I realize that all math and statistics disprove this, and as a man of science I should disregard my gut...but dammit higher crit range weapons just seem to work out better.

Yeah. I like a big threat range, because it just feels like you crit more. Although, I did roll two nat 20s on a single flurry with my unarmed monk, so crits can happen even on a terrible 20/x2 profile.


Claxon wrote:
I feel like I have critical threats come up significantly more often with a Nodachi with Improved Critical than a Greatsword with Improved Critical.

Well, they do happen 50% more often. But also, psychologically, you expect a critical on a natural 20 (and maybe even on a 19), so the "surprise - you critted!!!" variance is even more pronounced (66-100% higher).


Critting on a 15, it's what the cool kids are doing ;-)

Scarab Sages

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Drogos wrote:
Critting on a 15, it's what the cool kids are doing ;-)

Bah! In my day, we critted on a 12 in 3.0 when Improved Crit and Keen stacked and we liked it. Now git off my lawn!


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Imbicatus wrote:
Drogos wrote:
Critting on a 15, it's what the cool kids are doing ;-)
Bah! In my day, we critted on a 12 in 3.0 when Improved Crit and Keen stacked and we liked it. Now git off my lawn!

So that's why they don't let them stack. The more you know.

*gits off your lawn*


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Imbicatus wrote:
Drogos wrote:
Critting on a 15, it's what the cool kids are doing ;-)
Bah! In my day, we critted on a 12 in 3.0 when Improved Crit and Keen stacked and we liked it. Now git off my lawn!

I almost forget the Weaponmaster knocking that down to 10-20... noo... nooo!... *madness claims him*


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Fun fact: SKR once wrote a blog post on why keen and impr. crit should stack.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

Ignoring the nodachi's brace feature, the greatsword does 7 damage vs the nodachi's 5.5 damage.

Therefore the extra crit would have to give at least 1.5 extra damage on average.

Without keen/improved crit, the extra static damage would need to be X in the formula 1.1*(7+X)=1.15*(5.5+X)

In this case X is a hair under 28. So the nodachi becomes worth it sans doubling you crit chance when your static damage is 28+.

With keen/improved crit, the extra static damage would need to be X in the formula 1.2*(7+X)=1.3*(5.5+X)

In this case X is a hair over 12. So the nodachi becomes worth it after doubling your crit change when your static damage is 13+.

So - now that you have the #'s - you can make an informed decision. (Though of note - I didn't caculate in any extra crit feats you may have to make you more likely to confirm crits or any additional advantages.)

(Also again - remember - the nodachi does have the additional benefit of being able to brace it, though that doesn't come up very often.)

Your math on crits assumes that no crits are negated. In practice I have found that between 10 and 25% of all crits are negated due to the type being immune or a Fortification like ability.


Thanael wrote:
Fun fact: SKR once wrote a blog post on why keen and impr. crit should stack.

Mind blown!

I don't know the complete relevant build, but my friend has told me of a build that involved levels of weapon master prestiege class and the use of luck feats that allowed him to have an effective critical threat range of 1, 3-20. He only didn't threaten a critical hit on a roll of 2. The luck feats allowed him to treat a natural 1 as a 20 X number of times per day.

Dark Archive

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Majuba wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Drogos wrote:
Critting on a 15, it's what the cool kids are doing ;-)
Bah! In my day, we critted on a 12 in 3.0 when Improved Crit and Keen stacked and we liked it. Now git off my lawn!
I almost forget the Weaponmaster knocking that down to 10-20... noo... nooo!... *madness claims him*

Weaponmaster/Disciple of Dispater was where it was at, 10-20 with a x4 multiplier ;)


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Majuba wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:
Drogos wrote:
Critting on a 15, it's what the cool kids are doing ;-)
Bah! In my day, we critted on a 12 in 3.0 when Improved Crit and Keen stacked and we liked it. Now git off my lawn!
I almost forget the Weaponmaster knocking that down to 10-20... noo... nooo!... *madness claims him*

weaponmaster with mercurial greatsword... *shudders at memory*


Couple other key factors in the nodachi favor.

1) It can do slashing or piercing damage. Great sword only does slashing.

2) Nodachi, for weapon specialization (fighter builds) count as a pole arm besides as blades, heavy. Giving a bit more flexibility over the greatsword

Scarab Sages

Although to be fair, kukris were exotic weapons back then.


Thanael wrote:
Fun fact: SKR once wrote a blog post on why keen and impr. crit should stack.

I read it back then, and he was wrong :) He is much more wrong when it comes to Pathfinder, and the even bigger damage #'s being put out by higher strength, much better power-attack, and other abilities. Not to mention Critical feats.

Quite simply, he didn't consider high enough damage when he ran the numbers. A 2-20 crit range won't matter if you're dealing 10-12 damage average at 8th level. In Pathfinder even a 14 Str Fighter should deal an average of 18 per swing.


Claxon wrote:
Yeah, even though the math and statistics are technically against what I am saying, I feel like I have critical threats come up significantly more often with a Nodachi with Improved Critical than a Greatsword with Improved Critical. I realize that all math and statistics disprove this, and as a man of science I should disregard my gut...but dammit higher crit range weapons just seem to work out better.

Critical threats do come up more often with 15-10 (30%) instead of 18-20 (20%). It's the confirmation that levels things out.

Just grabbing the numbers off of the level 12 example, here's the breakdown:

With both weapons (single attack), you hit 65% of the time and miss 35% of the time.

With the great sword, that 65% breaks down as
Regular hit: 45.00%
Critical threat that doesn't confirm: 7.00%
Confirmed critical: 13.00%

With the nodachi, that 65% breaks down as
Regular hit: 35.00%
Critical threat that doesn't confirm: 10.50%
Confirmed critical: 19.50%

So your nodachi has a 10 percent higher chance to threaten a critical hit, but only a 6% higher chance to confirm the crit.

(Also, remember that you still have to hit, so your crit threat can never be higher than your chance to hit. If you only hit on a 17, it doesn't matter if your weapon threatens a crit on a 15.)

But again, the difference in damage over the long haul is not significant unless you start building for crits: Critical Focus, additional damage on a crit, Bless Weapon, etc. (With Critical Focus, the nodachi moves up to about 2.5 points more damage per round.)

So all the math boils down to "play what you like".

Sovereign Court

thorin001 wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
math stuff
Your math on crits assumes that no crits are negated. In practice I have found that between 10 and 25% of all crits are negated due to the type being immune or a Fortification like ability.

True - I should have mentioned that as another caveat at the end there. I remember that's why people didn't generally like crit builds back in 3.5 - too much stuff immune.

But as I did state - I was just comparing the numbers purely on an 5.5 base damage 18-20 crt vs 7 base damage 19-20 crit.

For that matter - I could have gone into how crits are more likely than normal hits to 'overkill', where the sporadic increased damage is often unneeded.

*shrug*

Dark Archive

Charon's Little Helper wrote:


For that matter - I could have gone into how crits are more likely than normal hits to 'overkill', where the sporadic increased damage is often unneeded.

*shrug*

This tends to inform my choices more often than not, an infrequent x3 or x4 crit weapon gives you great numbers to gleefully tell your GM but most often much of that is wasted and overkill. Lower multipliers whilst not giving that same huge numbers will occur more frequently and so hopefully the damage will actually be more useful with less wasted on overkill.


DrDeth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The Nodachi will be be better once your static bonuses become high enough. With a TWW Fighter or Bloodrager, that will be pretty quickly. Nodachi also has brace, giving it a little more utility.

For what it's worth, a Falcata used in two hands will be better than both in later levels.

Except that a Falcata costs a extra feat.

i thought eastern weapons were still exotic (and cost a feat) unless your class specifically grants proficiency in them (such as the samurai)


Gwen Smith wrote:
Claxon wrote:
Yeah, even though the math and statistics are technically against what I am saying, I feel like I have critical threats come up significantly more often with a Nodachi with Improved Critical than a Greatsword with Improved Critical. I realize that all math and statistics disprove this, and as a man of science I should disregard my gut...but dammit higher crit range weapons just seem to work out better.

Critical threats do come up more often with 15-10 (30%) instead of 18-20 (20%). It's the confirmation that levels things out.

Just grabbing the numbers off of the level 12 example, here's the breakdown:

With both weapons (single attack), you hit 65% of the time and miss 35% of the time.

With the great sword, that 65% breaks down as
Regular hit: 45.00%
Critical threat that doesn't confirm: 7.00%
Confirmed critical: 13.00%

With the nodachi, that 65% breaks down as
Regular hit: 35.00%
Critical threat that doesn't confirm: 10.50%
Confirmed critical: 19.50%

So your nodachi has a 10 percent higher chance to threaten a critical hit, but only a 6% higher chance to confirm the crit.

(Also, remember that you still have to hit, so your crit threat can never be higher than your chance to hit. If you only hit on a 17, it doesn't matter if your weapon threatens a crit on a 15.)

But again, the difference in damage over the long haul is not significant unless you start building for crits: Critical Focus, additional damage on a crit, Bless Weapon, etc. (With Critical Focus, the nodachi moves up to about 2.5 points more damage per round.)

So all the math boils down to "play what you like".

I think you misunderstood my statement Gwen.

I understand statistically that that 15-20 crit range is only 10% (absolute) better than a a 17-20 crit range. But it has always felt like I get substantially more critical hits with 15-20 then I do with 17-20. I understand the math and statistics, and once you work it all out you find that barring significant differences between the two builds the come nearly equal in all regards.

Scarab Sages

AndIMustMask wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

The Nodachi will be be better once your static bonuses become high enough. With a TWW Fighter or Bloodrager, that will be pretty quickly. Nodachi also has brace, giving it a little more utility.

For what it's worth, a Falcata used in two hands will be better than both in later levels.

Except that a Falcata costs a extra feat.
i thought eastern weapons were still exotic (and cost a feat) unless your class specifically grants proficiency in them (such as the samurai)

That's an optional rule that can be enforced by a GM, similar to how firearms may be simple/martial/exotic depending on what level of firearms are in the game.

By default, you just treat eastern weapons as they appear on the list unless your gm says different. Per the PRD, the Nodachi is martial.


ah, cool then.

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