Tensions Between Design Philosophy & Character Advancement Mechanics: The Worst of Both Worlds

[Mbando]

As I and other players from Ozem's Vigil try and think through our EE characters, we've become aware of the fundamental tension between the avowed design philosophy and game mechanics for building your character.

I feel like we're in a kind of a bind. The design seems to be: "Make a hard choice. This game is different than other games, where additional roles (gatherer, crafter) are added as timesinks to combat content consumption. Insted in PFO, those timesinks are career paths, and you can dabble in some, or be really good at one."

But the mechanic seems to be: "Look, unlike other games, you can't just follow the path you want. We're forcing you to make this hard choice about putting character power into things that are irrelevant to your playstyle if you want to be very good at something--if you want to be an adventurer, we're forcing you to put scarce character power into side ventures like crafting and gathering, but because of the design there will be no return on investment--it's just a power sink to make your time in the game longer."

As we understand it, it's a kind of lose-lose proposition, where we are forced to make a hard choice both ways, and get the worst of both worlds. I'm puzzled by this. Am I missing something, or misunderstood the system?

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

If you're talking about branching out being required to raise characteristics, you're seeing an effect of Alpha:

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Saiph wrote:

I do not want to train miscellaneous skills that have nothing to do with my role as a wizard in order to raise attributes which will then allow me to progress.

Confirmed with Lee and Stephen this morning that the above quote is the intent of the system and when the fix to the ability score gate is applied you will be able to achieve the necessary ability score increases simply by training things from the two (or three) trainers for your chosen Role.

Let me reiterate to be clear: The design objective is that if you want to be a better Wizard, all you have to do is learn Feats from Wizard trainers.

(Lee notes that there may be an issue with Constitution right now but that's something that we know about and intend to fix, and that training Hit Points is usually a solution if you find yourself in a dead end on Constitution.)

This is not a change and has always been the design intent. Perhaps we could have been more clear about this so that there wasn't any confusion and for that I apologize.

[Duffy]

While I technically agree and my arguments concerning it are steeped deeply in the idea that crafting is second class and an 'incomplete/lacking' gameplay path; since everyone has the same problem at least it's fair. There might be something to be said for at least having some gathering/refining on primarily combat characters just to help out their settlement with some injections of resources; hmm the very idea of having 'room' in your build for non-primary stuff is not necessarily a bad idea, it could lead to more diverse characters otherwise those that go for any diversity are inherently setback from those who did not. Depends what they want their baseline character to look like.

[Mbando]

I missed that post from Ryan Jazz--thanks so much!

[T7V Avari]

What Jazz posted. The leveling math has been getting major tweaks, especially the part about the ability scores. In earlier builds your ability scores went up very quickly, I remember having some scores in the 14 range and only being like level 4. But there were some problems with that so they tweaked it and now ability scores barely budge. To be honest it's worse now than it was before. But they know that and they are going to re do it.

I have to admit I really preferred it when ability scores started moving after just a few purchases. Something doesn't sit right about an 8th level fighter with a strength of 10.71.

[Giorgo]

@Mbando,

To your above points I would add: the lack of in game information (clear and formatted) is a serious determent to playing, understanding and recruiting for the game. Being forced to use third party resources just to do the basic things is a (insert word here)!

I spend more time reading, writing, analyzing and struggling to understand that I have actually played the game. I feel burn out approaching (just like Sspitfire1 and Cal B did recently). :(

[Tyncale]

This still means that as a Sword fighter you probably have to train Polearm specialization even though you may never intend to use one. I noticed that training these Weapon Specialization skills gave quit a boost to my Str.

I am still not fond of the system this way, would rather pay directly for the Ability itself. But it is better then having to take Mining and such.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

T7V Avari wrote:

To be honest it's worse now than it was before. But they know that and they are going to re do it.

I find myself thinking of it like artillery in World War II movies, bracketing a target to find the right range. Military folks: yes, I know it can't possibly be as easy as in the movies, but Goblinworks has likely got a lot to the process we're not seeing, too.

[Ryan Dancey]

Last night I levelled a Fighter to 8th level using nothing but Feats from the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught school.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

Giorgo wrote:

...the lack of in game information...

With all the things that are, perforce, part of Minimum Viable Product, I'll not be surprised if the spreadsheets take the place of in-game information for a time. At least we have the raw data, and it's being massaged, interpreted, and investigated by a dedicated group of players, even if it's not ready for immediate use by all players at the moment they need it.

Ryan's been clear that Day One of Early Enrollment is for folks willing--and able--to deal with incompleteness, in all its manifestations. We've got a lot of folks helping one another; this is still arguably the best community I've been involved in for any game.

[T7V Avari]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

T7V Avari wrote:

To be honest it's worse now than it was before. But they know that and they are going to re do it.

I find myself thinking of it like artillery in World War II movies, bracketing a target to find the right range. Military folks: yes, I know it can't possibly be as easy as in the movies, but Goblinworks has likely got a lot to the process we're not seeing, too.

Oh for sure. And we would be pretty lucky to have ability score gates in alpha as our biggest problem going forward. Wait til PvP really starts and balancing classes becomes talk of the town.

There's a reason GW has reserved the right to rollback everything except xp. We are play testing. It's in our crowdforging description.

[Mbando]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Last night I levelled a Fighter to 8th level using nothing but Feats from the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught school.

Last night I spent a couple of hours poring over spreadsheets trying to raise my CON, and then proceeded to waste about 3k on feats that didn't budge my CON at all, and logged off in frustration.

I'm willing to believe--am quite hopeful--this will improve. Right now though it doesn't strike me as optimal.

[Urman]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Last night I levelled a Fighter to 8th level using nothing but Feats from the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught school.

I think there's a recurring misunderstanding by players.

In the tabletop game, a Fighter can pick up practically any weapon and use it with some ability; she's cross-trained on a wide variety of the tools of her trade.

In PFO, people are trying to make a very, very specific character (say, a Fighter that uses *only* a longsword and longbow, and fights *only* in the dragoon armor style). They get stymied because they aren't cross-training. They don't have the breadth of abilities that a TT character would have - and that they're expected to have in the character advancement system here.

It's the same in the budding Commoner and Expert fields. When I build up my smelter character, I need to remind myself: he isn't a Smelter. He's a Commoner, with more training in smelter than other skills, but a Commoner with cross-training in many areas.

(And yeah, I agree with Mbando - poring over spreadsheet to figure out how to raise my Con is a pain. My smelter has crosstrained cleric armor feats, for example. :grumble:)

[Bringslite of Fidelis]

Holy Ore!

[Mbando]

Urman, I'm playing a cleric who can't advance and keeps wasting his exp because he's stuck at CON 10.952. I'm not asking to a Mace-Weilding, Undead-Only killing cleric. I'm just stymied by the fact that I have to get smelting or something else completely outside my role to get past the gate, but ALSO the investment I made in smelting is useless because the design pushes you to be good at something, not dabble.

If all this is going to change and be fixed, awesome.

[Caldeathe Baequiannia]

Ryan said Con is the most-bugged at the moment. Have you tried training hit points and fortitude?

[Takasi]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Last night I levelled a Fighter to 8th level using nothing but Feats from the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught school.

Why not 9th?

[Bringslite of Fidelis]

One of the worst issues (for me) is that we have to side track so far (rank 5) in most cases to begin to get a bonus. With low general lvls and limited exp, that doesn't come accross as a "side dabble". It seems like a major investment.

I am glad that it is being looked at.

[Nihimon]

Mbando wrote:

... I'm playing a cleric who can't advance...

Can you clarify exactly how you can't advance? Specifically, which Feat you're trying to buy, or which Cleric Level Achievement you're unable to meet?

[Hogar, Kreuz Bernstein]

Mbando wrote:

Urman, I'm playing a cleric who can't advance and keeps wasting his exp because he's stuck at CON 10.952. I'm not asking to a Mace-Weilding, Undead-Only killing cleric. I'm just stymied by the fact that I have to get smelting or something else completely outside my role to get past the gate, but ALSO the investment I made in smelting is useless because the design pushes you to be good at something, not dabble.

If all this is going to change and be fixed, awesome.

Maybe you want to use Nightdrifters absolute excellent "spreadsheet". Thread here.

Under the "Training" tab, you can choose an ability. When clicking "suggestion", you get a list of every feat that raises that ability score, from which grade on, and by what amount calculated as "score/per XP". Very handy.

CON is boosted by: hit points, great fortitude, toughness, bravery, diehard(not implemented yet), bulwark, bodyguard(not implemented yet), medium armor proficiency, heavy armor proficiency, fortitude bonus, dragoon, unbreakabe, evangelist, healer, crusader, shield bash, shield block, shield slam, miner, recovery bonus, sawyer, smelter, tanner, BaB & power.

Hope this is of help to you.

[Urman]

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:

One of the worst issues (for me) is that we have to side track so far (rank 5) in most cases to begin to get a bonus. With low general lvls and limited exp, that doesn't come accross as a "side dabble". It seems like a major investment.

I am glad that it is being looked at.

Yup. In Alpha 7 (or was it 6?) we could dabble. The idea of opening up a new skill line like Sawyer to skill 5 or 6 or 7 just to get a few fractions of a point of Con - it is a major investment. Especially as Mbando points out, Sawyer 5 (or Smelter 5) doesn't do much for a lot of people. A settlement doesn't need 80% of its members at Smelter 5.

(Smelter 7 and 8 now... well, Dwarven Steel blanks for Tier 2 arrows? Players will be using those puppies until the end of the game, and the lead smelter in the settlement doesn't need to be making them. It's still an expensive side investment for an adventurer-roled character.)

[Takasi]

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:

One of the worst issues (for me) is that we have to side track so far (rank 5) in most cases to begin to get a bonus. With low general lvls and limited exp, that doesn't come accross as a "side dabble". It seems like a major investment.

I am glad that it is being looked at.

Bringslite can you post your example?

While some bonuses (gathering, crafting, knowledge) don't start until 5 most (armor, domain, spells, utilities) start at 2 or 3. In all cases this is at most about two day's worth of xp.

[Takasi]

Urman wrote:

The idea of opening up a new skill line like Sawyer to skill 5 or 6 or 7 just to get a few fractions of a point of Con - it is a major investment. Especially as Mbando points out, Sawyer 5 (or Smelter 5) doesn't do much for a lot of people. A settlement doesn't need 80% of its members at Smelter 5.

My cleric has 11 Con from Miner 7, hit points 7 and Crusader/Healer/Unbreakable 6. Craft skills are not necessary to be an adventurer. I wish I wasn't forced to mine but I can't say it isn't useful, and if I really wanted to I could have just taken Evangelist and Dragoon instead. If more higher tier gear were available then this would be far more useful for a totally non crafting/gathering character.

[Mbando]

Caldeathe Baequiannia wrote:

Ryan said Con is the most-bugged at the moment. Have you tried training hit points and fortitude?

Cal, I can't go up in HP to get a better CON because I need a higher CON to go up in HP :)

I'm going to log out for a couple of days and try Fortitude 4.

[Giorgo]

@Mbando,

There is a thread here on how to raise CON. It gives you the info you seek. :)

[<Kabal> Daeglin]

Giorgo wrote:

I spend more time reading, writing, analyzing and struggling to understand that I have actually played the game. I feel burn out approaching (just like Sspitfire1 and Cal B did recently). :(

Every once in a while, especially if I've been reading the forums too much, I start feeling stressed that "I'm not building my character right!!" I have to remind myself that my personal play style means I don't have to care about being "optimal". Two years from now, I won't care if I spent a weeks worth of xp on something I accidentally choose (darn you miss-clicks!!) or didn't understand fully. I know for some people that kind of mistake will be character breaking, but if that is not you, thinking of your long term plans may at least relieve some of your current stress.

It helps that nobody can look at my character and "LOL NOOB" because I didn't follow a theory-crafted optimal talent tree. Nobody can see that my fighter trained 3 levels of tailor cause I found a +2 wool sock recipe and wanted to make them ;)

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

<Kabal> Daeglin wrote:

It helps that nobody can look at my character...

I hope they never add an "inspect" function that operates at that level of detail. This is the first game in which I've been interested in grouping, partially because of stories in others of people kicked out of groups--or not allowed in--because they didn't do "whatever" right in their build.

It's probably a forlorn hope that we'll be able to avoid that thinking about gear, though.

[Jakaal]

Good wool socks are a fighters best friend...

Just sayn'

[Giorgo]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

Ryan's been clear that Day One of Early Enrollment is for folks willing--and able--to deal with incompleteness, in all its manifestations. We've got a lot of folks helping one another; this is still arguably the best community I've been involved in for any game.

Which is while I am still here, frustrated, but still here trying to do my part to make for a better game experience. :( & :)

[Tyveil]

IMO the worst design decision made so far is how we raise attributes by training feats. I don't mind if it gives a small bump to attributes but it should not be the primary method of training. This leads to what we're seeing now, you are basically forced into taking skills you don't necessarily want. Mark my words, at later stages in the game characters will be much the same because of this.

I proposed an alternate solution, where you gain attributes as you advance in a role, and was shot down by this community. So be it, you get what you ask for. Hindsight is 20/20, don't say I didn't tell you so.

http://tinyurl.com/onzrdsl

[Hardin Steele]

Urman wrote:

Smelter 7 and 8 now... well, Dwarven Steel blanks for Tier 2 arrows? Players will be using those puppies until the end of the game, and the lead smelter in the settlement doesn't need to be making them. It's still an expensive side investment for an adventurer-roled character.

Urman, This need is good so that lower level raw materials are needed throughout. But you are correct that as a side investment in XPs it is very expensive. Which brings to mind a "dedicated mid-level refiner" role archetype. Why have the highest level of any refining skill waste time queuing up Tier 2 refined goods (or Tier 1) when they could be refining raw materials for the longer Tier 3 items. A dedicated refiner, adept in the mid-range refining of several crafts, is a feasible profession. It brings to mind "Jack-of-all-trades, master of none."

[Ryan Dancey]

I will do a Cleric build today.

My Fighter build was designed to get the character to level as fast as possible, not to necessarily be a "fun" character to play on a daily basis. The Dreadnaught 2 trainer in the NPC Settlements doesn't know how to teach higher ranks of Base Attack Bonus so I would need to seek out a higher level trainer if I wished to continue to advance (and kill a lot more goblins).

I only used 2 dev commands. I gave myself a lot of XP, and at one point I added a nonmagical Hunter's Longbow to my inventory to save myself a trip to Thornkeep, or a bit more killing of goblins for random loot.

Hitting the Martial Achievement goals took about 4 hours of play and during that time I was working on other things as well not paying 100% attention to the goblin killing. It was pretty "casual".

I spent 29.21 days of XP. Since I reached all the Achievement goals in 4 hours, I think its pretty reasonable to say that at least for this build, the amount of time you would spend pursuing Achievements compared to the amount of time you could spend doing self-directed things is pretty trivial.

What I did:

I trained all my Feats at the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught School in a starting NPC Settlement.

The only things I killed were the Tutorial goblins right on the edge of town.

Achievements:

Heavy Blade Expert 4 (Steel Greatsword): Killed 100 goblins (10 Martial points)
Longbow Expert 4 (Hunter's Longbow): Killed 100 goblins (10 Martial points)
Hammer Expert 3 (Softwood club): Killed 50 goblins (6 Martial points)
Polearm Expert 2 (Steel Spear): Killed 20 goblins (3 Martial points)

Goblin Slayer 5: Killed 270 goblins (15 Adventure points)

Development Path:

I did the tutorial and took the 3 Tutorial Feats.
Trained Trophy Charm Implement Proficiency 1.
Then I trained nothing but Power, Fortitude Bonus, Hit Points and Base Attack Bonus to increase to Fighter 7.

At this point I had 22 Martial points (Heavy Weapon 4, Longbow 4, Hammer 2).

At this point I hit the Strength gate. I trained all the Weapon Attack Feats for Heavy Blade and Hammers. I also took all the Master of Opportunity Feats. This cleared the Strength gate.

At this point I hit the Constitution gate. I trained the Armor Feats, the Shield Feats, and the various Feats like Bravery, Bulwark, etc. This cleared the Constitution gate.

Feats (final ranks):

Base Attack Bonus 4
Power 8
Hit Points 8

Bull Rush 2
Bulwark 2
Recovery Bonus 4
Bravery 2
Toughness 2
Great Fortitude 2
Fortitude Bonus 4

Master of Opportunity: Suffer 2
Master of Opportunity: Stand Still 2
Master of Opportunity: Stop 2
Master of Opportunity: Slip 2
Master of Opportunity: Stumble 2

Heavy Armor Proficiency
Dragoon 5
Unbreakable 5

Medium Armor Proficiency
Archer 5

Trophy Charm Implement Proficiency 1

Heavy Meele Attack Bonus 2
Heavy Blade Proficiency 1
Cleave 3
Cross Blow 3
Hoist 3
Passing Step Thrust 3
Swing 3
Wind Up 3
Wrath Guard 3
Wrathful Strike 3

Hammer Weapon Proficiency 1
Beat 2
Conk 2
Escape 2
Inertia 2
Shillelagh 2
Shove 2
Thump 2
Thwack 2

Shield Weapon Proficiency 1
Shield Bash 1
Shield Block 1
Shield Charge 1
Shield Slam 1

I never equipped armor. All goblins were killed with the 2 starting Feats you get with each weapon.

I slotted Toughness with the Tutorial.

No other Feats slotted.

Strength 11, Constitution 11

620 Hit Points
Fortitude 16
Base Attack Bonus 13
Heavy Melee Attack 21
Light Melee Attack 13
Ranged Attack Bonus 13
Arcane Attack Bonus 13
Divine Attack Bonus 13

Notable Loot (lots of loot not listed):

270 copper, plus a bit I spent on Greatswords in the Auction House

Recipes for Pot Steel Plate, Quiet Iron Shirt, Steel Ingot +2, Warm Hat, Weak Antiseptic Extract.

I got as loot all the weapons I used except the Greatsword, but I ended up with 2 in inventory so if I had just been patient I wouldn't have needed to go shopping, and the Hunter's Longbow I conjured with dev commands.

[Ryan Dancey]

So, how do you find a Dreadnaught 3 trainer so you an advance beyond level 8?

War of Towers.

PC Settlements will get increased training by holding Towers. To get the trainers to advance to Level 3, a Settlement needs to hold 8 towers. Since there are 6 towers around each Settlement, that means they have to hold the Home Ground, plus go looking for 2 more.

When the Settlements succeed in holding towers and their Trainers level up, their characters can then pursue training beyond what the NPC Settlements can provide.

[Jakaal]

OK so are the unclaimed settlements going to be available for cap or are us that are allied and neighbors going to be forced to choose who gets to advance their settlement and who doesn't?

[Giorgo]

NPC settlements (except TK) are going to be wiped is my understanding.

Player settlements are safe until siege engines are available. :)

[T7V Avari]

I have a rogue who can't get perception 8 because she doesn't have enough wisdom. She has 5 levels in cleric... Now that's just wrong, I don't care what the spreadsheets say.

What this causes is everybody having to take the same feats, the ones that increase scores the most, completely derailing the gist of open leveling. Ability score gaining needs another major tweak imo. If we are running into these problems with 1.5 month old chars i can only imagine the nightmare at high levels.

[Doc || Allegiant Gemcutters]

T7V Avari wrote:

What this causes is everybody having to take the same feats, the ones that increase scores the most, completely derailing the gist of open leveling. Ability score gaining needs another major tweak imo.

That's exactly what Tyveil was saying above.

It seems like most people shot down his suggestion on ideaforge, maybe there is another way to approach the issue.

[T7V Avari]

Doc || Allegiant Gemcutters wrote:

T7V Avari wrote:

What this causes is everybody having to take the same feats, the ones that increase scores the most, completely derailing the gist of open leveling. Ability score gaining needs another major tweak imo.

That's exactly what Tyveil was saying above.

It seems like most people shot down his suggestion on ideaforge, maybe there is another way to approach the issue.

Yes, the theory of the system is great, it's the math that isn't right.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

T7V Avari wrote:

...can't get perception 8...

Per Cheatle's guide, you don't need Perception 8 for getting more Rogue levels until Rogue 11, so have you been running into enough characters with high Stealth that you need so much Perception?

[T7V Avari]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

T7V Avari wrote:

...can't get perception 8...

Per Cheatle's guide, you don't need Perception 8 for getting more Rogue levels until Rogue 11, so have you been running into enough characters with high Stealth that you need so much Perception?

Might be perception 7. It's blocking me at Rogue 6. A character with 5 levels in Cleric should, by accident, have enough wisdom to level comfortably in Rogue. Too much is tied into armor feats you don't need currently. Armor proficiencies have always been the blight of multi classed characters, I get it, but we shouldn't be feeling it this early.

[Saiph]

T7V Jazzlvraz wrote:

T7V Avari wrote:

...can't get perception 8...

Per Cheatle's guide, you don't need Perception 8 for getting more Rogue levels until Rogue 11, so have you been running into enough characters with high Stealth that you need so much Perception?

I don't think that's what needs to be addressed here, Rogues needing Wisdom is the issue.

[Urman]

I wonder that rogues need perception so high, if they aren't a Wisdom based class? Or maybe they are Wisdom based, and I'm clinging to old TT ideas.

[Doc || Allegiant Gemcutters]

The Scout-armor feat which is Rogue, provides perception enhancement. I'd imagine that is why Perception is being associated here.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

T7V Avari wrote:

Might be perception 7. It's blocking me at Rogue 6.

Aha, perhaps the guide's out-dated; it says there's no Perception requirement at odd-numbered levels of Rogue.

[T7V Avari]

Ryan Dancey wrote:

Heavy Armor Proficiency

Dragoon 5
Unbreakable 5

Medium Armor Proficiency
Archer 5

This is the part of the build I don't like. As you go up higher in levels that's a ton of xp dumped into armor proficiencies you use less and less because they get further and further away from your build. The current system revolves too much around certain subsets of feats, especially expensive armor feats. But even that doesn't explain why my character with Evangelist 5, doesn't have enough wisdom to get the perception for Rogue 7 (rogue 8 maybe).

IMO, the whole system needs a major smoothing. More feats that give ability scores in small quantities, more ability score gaining in general.

[Tyveil]

Doc || Allegiant Gemcutters wrote:

T7V Avari wrote:

What this causes is everybody having to take the same feats, the ones that increase scores the most, completely derailing the gist of open leveling. Ability score gaining needs another major tweak imo.

That's exactly what Tyveil was saying above.

It seems like most people shot down his suggestion on ideaforge, maybe there is another way to approach the issue.

It seems the largest complaint was that you could train feats completely unrelated to "Attribute X", and once you leveled your role you would still be able to add to "Attribute X".

I get this. But you still want a certain amount of freedom so that players can customize their attributes. I think that trade off makes it worth it. If I'm focusing on a Cleric role, I'm going to be inclined to spend my points on Wisdom, to not do so will just limit the feats I can gain and their effectiveness. This is why the system I proposed would work. Maybe I didn't do a good enough job explaining the system.

[Nihimon]

T7V Avari wrote:

A character with 5 levels in Cleric should, by accident, have enough wisdom to level comfortably in Rogue.

It seems to me that either we shouldn't be making this assumption, or we should be asking Lee to put some Ability Score Requirements (directly or indirectly) on Role Levels.

[T7V Jazzlvraz]

I can never recall: are Role levels a pre-requisite to anything, now or in future? I thought I remembered them being only cosmetic.

[Bringslite of Fidelis]

Takasi wrote:

Bringslite of Fidelis wrote:

One of the worst issues (for me) is that we have to side track so far (rank 5) in most cases to begin to get a bonus. With low general lvls and limited exp, that doesn't come accross as a "side dabble". It seems like a major investment.

I am glad that it is being looked at.

Bringslite can you post your example?

While some bonuses (gathering, crafting, knowledge) don't start until 5 most (armor, domain, spells, utilities) start at 2 or 3. In all cases this is at most about two day's worth of xp.

Remember that I started characters at....what? alpha 6 or 7 since the last wipe? Things may have changed now, but I did have to invest in these skills previously. That or I was very lost trying to find the best way to advance. Entirely possible.

[Bringslite of Fidelis]

I appreciate your example there Ryan. It looks pretty good. It would be helpful to have an easily found document that had guides for this and other roles.