Goblin Squad Member
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Last night I levelled a Fighter to 8th level using nothing but Feats from the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught school.
This statement, while technically true, is highly misleading. What he's not pointing out here is his build is full of skills that contradict eachother.
At a quick glance I noted 3 armor feats and 5 reactive feats. One of the armor feats (archer) was darn near useless as well as he has trained almost no skills backing up a ranged fighter.
You're really better off taking some crafting/gathering etc. skills that train strength and con unless you find abilities at the fighter/dread trainer that you actually see yourself slotting once in awhile.
Ryan's build would only be used by someone trying to prove a point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Likely the reason Ryan left out any kind of ranged training other than the armor feat is that most ranged feats are dex based.
Were you to make a melee/range fighter you would have to go:
Strength, Constitution AND Dexterity
A better build than what Ryan made but not good for proving his point.
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Goblin Squad Member
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As a sidenote I don't mind having to take a bit of gathering and profession skills to advance in my build.
But 4.75 years to max a single build is stretching out further and further if this is an intentional part of the design and not some temporary fluke, and as it does the disparity between newb and vet stretches with it.
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Goblin Squad Member
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...And, obviously, as in all things, we need better in-game guidance on what to do (which we're working on).I'm very glad to hear that you're working on it.
After spending a few hours helping newbies since the Stress Test started, I've come to the conclusion that the lack of in-game guidance is the single biggest problem PFO has right now. I cannot count how many times I've told people "The only way to know how X affects Y is to search for it on the Paizo forums." Unfortunately, even that is difficult for new people, because there's so much terminology overlap with tabletop Pathfinder.
It's interesting to me that, in contrast to this board sometimes, a lot of newbies say "I'm impressed with how good this game looks for an Alpha."
Top 10 Things I've Been Telling Newbies:
1. The generic answer to any weirdness in Alpha is to quit to the desktop and re-load. If that doesn't work, quit the game, re-load, move to a different hex, and try again.
2. Watch out for wolves in town. They're unusually crafty wolves, who have escaped several extermination attempts by Goblinworks. When the wolf brings its Thornguard friend to attack you, don't strike back at the Thornguard. She will never forget or forgive. Run away or let them kill you.
3. No, there's no way to read the full description of an armor feat in game. It scrolls off the screen for everyone, not just you. Search the Paizo forums for the full text.
4. Reassigning keys (movement, etc.) requires editing a text file out of game. Search the Paizo forum for instructions.
5. If you already bought Toughness, don't worry about completing the tutorial. You can play just fine without completing it.
6. All Alpha characters will be wiped at the start of Early Enrollment. Don't be afraid to spend some of your xp on a little bit of everything right now. You won't be "behind" anyone in the live game because you "threw points away" in Alpha.
7. Some goblins are bugged. If you can't hit them and
You're welcome.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I'm talking about 5 years or so down the line.
Say you've done all you can or want to with the fighter stuff.
Can you start exploring other skills with the same character, if you start at the bottom again? Basically unslot all of your fighter feats and things, and equip wizard stuff? Or rogue stuff?I understand there may not be a whole lot of synergy as you progress (the elimination of "hybrid" feats to slot would prevent this), but is it an option? That way you can play as a wizard OR a rogue OR a fighter, depending on what your team is lacking, and be decent/great at all three, just not at once?
From what I understand, that was the idea all along. Veterans aren't more powerful than experienced but somewhat newer players, they're just more versatile. It's an attitude inherited from EVE.
Personally, I like mixing a couple of roles to match the character I want to play. I'm not looking for uber-synergy, and I'm not looking to specialize to the point of iajutsu (the martial art of drawing a sword. Not swinging it, just pulling it out of the sheath). I hope that in the effort to thwart every avenue to ultimate power, some small amount of room is left for playing the game.
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Goblin Squad Member
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By the way, I don't know off hand who Maksi is, but when I have been in game I've overheard Maksi providing exemplary service helping others figure out the game. I wish to recommend Maksi should be granted some kind of reward, even if it is only widespread acclaim from the community.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Ryan's been clear that Day One of Early Enrollment is for folks willing--and able--to deal with incompleteness, in all its manifestations.
I would STRONGLY argue this point.
Ryan was extremely vague and general in comments about EE during the Kickstarter other then its not a beta, it will be a working, non-buggy game and EE will be the time for the first wave of players to form the infrastructure of the game so each month as new players came into the game they would find items to buy, settlements to join and wars to fight.
None of which appears to be true.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Last night I levelled a Fighter to 8th level using nothing but Feats from the Fighter College and the Dreadnaught school.This statement, while technically true, is highly misleading. What he's not pointing out here is his build is full of skills that contradict eachother.
Well, I disagree. i certainly do not see the ability for a fighter to tank as contradicting the ability to dps melee or ranged. Nor the ability to use one weapon as contradicting the ability to use others. I don't quite see why you rate Archer as particularly useless when longbows was one of his two main weapons. (well, except that he didnt use any armors at all).
Do you see the game currently as having 12 separate classes? Do you plan to just use a single weapon and armor type for all your time in the game and see versatility as useless?
The point Ryan proves is that is you make a well-rounded character (similar to tabletop classes), then you don't need to spend xp on cross-class or crafting skills.
To me, the beauty of the current system is that it doesn't allow you to get ahead by narrowly specializing (and ignoring a big part of your role), yet allows to to meet the gating criteria with whatever combination you want. (I would not describe it as fully classless, but more like having 'fluid' classes instead or rigid ones).
The 'default' for rogues would be to get their wisdom from library skills, but they can replace some of that with scavenging or cleric feats.
The 'default' for fighters would be to get their con from training fighter armor and shield, but they can sacrifice some of that and pick up smelting/tanning/sawyer instead (or cleric armor).
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Goblin Squad Member
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@Summersnow How does this post from 2012 appear to you with regard to "truthiness"?
Looks like you have A LOT of work to do on the combat system if you are going to fulfill the promise of not delivering a bug ridden beta.
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Goblin Squad Member
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I played an mmo where it was released with the core gameloop and a small world in tact and it was fun. It only had a few levels and enough items but it worked. Over time it gradually expanded which was really nice.
I think that's the litmus test: That the core game loop actually works as a game and then stuff is built around it over time.
I watched Andius' video on youtube with melee and that was taken a few weeks ago, and the animations were still out of phase with the combat resolution per "round". The grass also had that sea-floor syncronized sway which again just did not feel like it was finished either.
If PFO achieves that status I'll be happy to play, but not before to be honest. I also think it's important for players to be able to coordinate around their settlements as a major gameplay driver: IE talking and coordinating with their community as "gameplay" with "goals" for the group emerging.
Hauling by beasts of burden too would be a major game system to get in as valuable/vulnerable targets but the major way for bulk materials to be transported "long-distance".
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Goblin Squad Member
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I've been following this thread and avoiding comment, but I read the blog to which Ryan linked, and feel a need to respond to some of the negativity. What I see in the blog is the following:
There's no way to get around the fact that we'll be making large gameplay changes throughout Beta. This is another reason it is called Beta.
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Not everyone wants to pay for Beta access while some of the major gameplay systems are still being developed.
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If you choose to join us for Early Access Beta, we will make sure that you have a great time! A lot of the game systems will be implemented around you, and you'll be able to see them evolve and change to meet your needs. More importantly, we'll be paying lots of attention to your feedback and trying to make a game that facilitates your gameplay style - whatever that is.
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Early Access Beta requires a leap of faith for both the community and Goblinworks. But this is how Pathfinder has always been developed -- in collaboration with the fans.
To me this implies that there will still be the potential for major changes to game mechanics, it even says as much. And that implies there will be bugs. But as the last quoted comment above states, Beta (or EE .. a rose by any other name .. though maybe not exactly a rose) is for those that want to participate in shaping the game. I expect there to be issues. I wouldn't even be surprised if some of those issues are close to "game-breaking" given what is being tried.
But, I am also mindful that if I get 4-5 hours of fun from the game in any given month, then I've gotten the value I am looking for and I get the satisfaction of knowing that I can make a positive contribution to the future gameplay of others.
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Some of the biggest points of negativity sprouting up having to deal with the notion that the game is effectively "launching" with EE, that you have to pay for EE (hence making it a launch), and yet the game is very incomplete - so people say WTF?
I think pointing people to that blog post that Ryan linked to:
https://goblinworks.com/blog/what-to-expect-from-early-access-beta/
- would probably go a long way to clearing things up or providing a more useful context as to what EE is all about.
People try to rush to the rescue like White Knights to defend or argue, but they should probably just post a link to that article and then quietly move on from the thread (the recent fiasco at MMORPG.com being an example).
@Ryan, IMHO that blog post needs to be reposted, or published again in similar wording and plastered all around. Perception is everything and I think right now a lot of outside people have a skewed perception of what EE really is, and why it's a paid "beta" of sorts.
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Goblin Squad Member
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| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
The biggest problem is that most people who allow their anger to guide them are very unlikely to change their mind regardless of the amount of evidence or statements to the contrary and this is very frustrating when trying to expand the conversation or get more people interested. It's particularly frustrating when blatantly incorrect statements are given as fact.
I've followed several outside viewer conversations regarding PFO and many people refuse to simply acknowledge that it's doing something a bit different that might not be for them and move on, instead they make convoluted logic to explain why the Early Access/Beta is really a release and/or scam, and then lambast the devs, the gane concept, and anyone who is interested in it. The very definition of toxic. A person can be contrary, can be critical, and is free to not like something for subjective reasons, but they don't have to be an ass about it; that's all on them.
Sadly the best course of action is to simply not engage, which unfortunately means they get to continue spewing their toxicity and factually dubious statements unopposed.
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Goblin Squad Member
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The biggest problem is that most people who allow their anger to guide them are very unlikely to change their mind regardless of the amount of evidence or statements to the contrary and this is very frustrating when trying to expand the conversation or get more people interested. It's particularly frustrating when blatantly incorrect statements are given as fact.
I've followed several outside viewer conversations regarding PFO and many people refuse to simply acknowledge that it's doing something a bit different that might not be for them and move on, instead they make convoluted logic to explain why the Early Access/Beta is really a release and/or scam, and then lambast the devs, the gane concept, and anyone who is interested in it. The very definition of toxic. A person can be contrary, can be critical, and is free to not like something for subjective reasons, but they don't have to be an ass about it; that's all on them.
Sadly the best course of action is to simply not engage, which unfortunately means they get to continue spewing their toxicity and factually dubious statements unopposed.
I couldn't have said it better myself.
Goblinworks Executive Founder
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@Summersnow How does this post from 2012 appear to you with regard to "truthiness"?
@TClifford:
On Monday (barring delays) you will be able to play in the Alpha. Have fun!
The Alpha is scheduled to end on the 25th and Early Enrollment is scheduled to begin on the 25th. If you have Early Enrollment access (and it sounds like you do), you'll be able to play on the first day of Early Enrollment (if you want to).
You can verify your Enrollment status by logging in to gobliworks.com and clicking the account link (it's right below the Pathfinder Online logo and it's in the form "username account". You'll see your enrollment status on the information page.
There is no "beta". We should not have used that term in the Reward description but by the time we decided it was a mistake to have used that term it was too late to change the Reward text. Early Enrollment is not a "beta test" in the classic sense. It is instead "early access". The game will be a "minimum viable product" - a complete, playable game that has all the basic features required to play. It will however be the first iteration of those features and some non-essential features are still being developed. You, and the other Early Enrollees will have a chance to help us create Pathfinder Online through our Crowdforging intiatives.
If you don't want to play the game at this time you do not have to begin using the game time you received from the Kickstarter and can wait as long as you wish before you do use that time. The game will continuously iterate and become more complex as time progresses.
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2rijk?When-will-the-Kickstarter-people-finally- get#4
Just for clarity.
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Goblin Squad Member
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Some of the biggest points of negativity sprouting up having to deal with the notion that the game is effectively "launching" with EE, that you have to pay for EE (hence making it a launch), and yet the game is very incomplete - so people say WTF?...
There is a segment of the MMO player base who are fundamentally opposed to the very concept of a "paid beta" - really of payment for anything other than a complete finished product. We don't tend to see them here, but you'll see them pop up on the wider market MMO sites. Some of these are people who have been burned by other games in the past, some just have deep set conviction that it is bad for consumers. They will discuss PFO as though its in the final form once payments are accepted for it, or no resets planned. There is no reasoning with them, they will not accept explanations, they will not entertain any reasonable (or unreasonable) argument, because that is not their purpose. Their purpose is to try and harm or shut down the possibility of success of any game that tries what they view as a similar funding model.
There is another smaller segment with a similar view to any game being funded through Kickstarters, but not as common a belief, and more likely to get shut down by the general MMO players.