My thoughts on Border...I mean the new approach of Pathfinder

[Malakav]

Well as the title says, seeing the new Numeria setting, with the Technology Guide and the new adventure path Iron Gods, all I could think is "Borderlands Much?"

I got dissapointed, really, I changed from 3.5 to pathfinder because they offered me new worlds, new skills, an improved 3.75 system, everything started to make sense immediately and all clases improved in a cool way

Continuing with the Medieval theme, with iconic monsters and some othernew cool monsters

It was a straight hook, they got all the old school players to change to Path and laugh at 3.5 and the stupid 4th version

Then new classes were coming, I loved all, except 1, the Gunslinger

The Gunslinger was cheesy, Full Bab, Touch Damage, full Dex can forget all other stats except WIS, and extra damage with DEX
This was not cool because if I wanted to put a full armor tank, the gun slinger would say "oh that´s cute"

Then came the Advanced Classes or Hybrids.............

talk about OP and Unbalanced!!!

This became more and more just a videogame, where the players would just think of a build and then win, most of the times, the monsters didn´t offer much challenge and most of the time I would get frustrated as a DM, because, hey! I want to win sometimes too!

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

[LordClammy]

Just because the book is made, doesn't mean it must be used. I don't care for gunslinger, so it doesn't appear in my games. It seems kinda silly to abandon pathfinder because they put out material that appeals to others and not directly to yourself.

[anlashok]

First of all: Technology Guide is a Campaign Setting Guide. Don't use it if you don't want to play with that campaign setting. Just as in 3.5 I wouldn't use Eberron material if I didn't want Eberron stuff.

Malakav wrote:

Then came the Advanced Classes or Hybrids.............

talk about OP and Unbalanced!!!

LOL

I hope you're joking.

Quote:

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships??

Those are indeed all things unique to Borderlands.

Quote:

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there

And more hilarity.

[The Archive]

Numeria has been part of the Golarion setting for a long time. The first definite mention I can find of it is in the Campaign Setting book. Which funny enough actually came out a few months prior to the first Borderlands. And as for aliens? We have human-alien hybrids as one core race, and the descendants of fey from another plane as another.

And really, while I don't know if they have this on the PRD or not, the Technology Guide is very much so presented as an optional supplement in its introduction. It's not intended overall for general use. It has some suggestions for expanding the tech level, but those are for people modifying the setting. As for Golarion with no modifications, the tech level is the same as always; they've just actually written the setting books for that area now.

Golarion has always been a somewhat piecemeal setting. Just because they've released content pertaining to one piece you may not particularly like, does not mean you have to jump ship.

And let's all be honest here. There will be people who powergame. It doesn't matter the game system.

[TarkXT]

Malakav wrote:

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

D&D ripping off a videogame you say?

[Zhayne]

Ooookay, someone call the guys in the white coats with the butterfly nets.

Seriously, you can exclude ANYTHING you want to. I regularly run games without wizards, druids, and clerics allowed. If i can do that, you can say no lasers.

[Eltacolibre]

Gotta love when people don't even know that old school dnd used to have scifi all over the place. Between alien and motherships, spelljammers, orcs in space etc...

It's only recently people seems to have a problem with keeping "realism" in their campaign setting. Something that I always found funny and ridiculous.

[Izkrael]

Yeah, he's just flamebaiting I believe.

[MMCJawa]

Also the next AP is Giantslayer, which is all about killing orcs and giants...can't get more traditional than that

[Bob Bob Bob]

The tech guide is almost perfectly Expedition to the Barrier Peaks. The cards, the color coding, powered armor, disc batteries, really wish it'd been out before running the conversion I did. Everything is very limited and eventually breaks or runs out without going back to where you got it.

Borderlands, on the other hand, requires infinite and regularly available ammo so you can just keep shooting without having to worry about "charges". It also requires a wide selection of ranged weaponry and variations within those weapons. Until I can get a weapon that is also a rocket that reappears in my hands, or a gun that shoots swords that explode into smaller swords, or even just the simple "becomes more accurate the longer you shoot it" I can't say Pathfinder is becoming Borderlands. Camping on a generator so you can actually use your weapons is the way of the NPC. PCs should be out shooting and looting.

[Sandal Fury]

Malakav wrote:

I would get frustrated as a DM, because, hey! I want to win sometimes too!

I get the sense you're not a very good DM if you think you should be trying to "win."

[Zhayne]

Sandal Fury wrote:

Malakav wrote:

I would get frustrated as a DM, because, hey! I want to win sometimes too!

I get the sense you're not a very good DM if you think you should be trying to "win."

I was hoping I wasn't the only one who had that thought.

[Paladin of Baha-who?]

If your players and you all have a good time and say, "That was awesome, thanks for running" then you, as a GM, have won.

[Scythia]

So, you're saying that the Technology Guide is an excellent tool for running a Borderlands themed Pathfinder game?

Thanks for the helpful advice. I know what I'm ordering next pay cycle.

[Mulgar]

Eltacolibre wrote:

Gotta love when people don't even know that old school dnd used to have scifi all over the place. Between alien and motherships, spelljammers, orcs in space etc...

It's only recently people seems to have a problem with keeping "realism" in their campaign setting. Something that I always found funny and ridiculous.

yeah, I love the realism argument when you have people throwing magical force arrows and snowballs around at 1st level. Can't have that.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.........

[Create Mr. Pitt]

I demand realism in my pathfinder. the only magic allowed is that of david blaine or david copperfield. if you have a lot of super large mirrors, a ton of time, and a lot of stage hands you can make something disappear. that's it.

Also one type of dragon. Two classes, the bard and the wizard. Because I like them and anything else feel unrealistic to me. Providing consumers with options is a bad practice and it the only ones available should conform entirely to my taste.

[knightnday]

Sorry to see you go. Hopefully 5E will stay the game you desire. As for the rest of your points, well, you are entitled to them. You are incorrect as several people have mentioned above, however.

Have fun.

[RDM42]

Mulgar wrote:

Eltacolibre wrote:

Gotta love when people don't even know that old school dnd used to have scifi all over the place. Between alien and motherships, spelljammers, orcs in space etc...

It's only recently people seems to have a problem with keeping "realism" in their campaign setting. Something that I always found funny and ridiculous.

yeah, I love the realism argument when you have people throwing magical force arrows and snowballs around at 1st level. Can't have that.

Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.........

I don't have to agree with the original poster to find this particular argument fallacious. The existence of magical effects doesn't somehow obviate the need for realism. Realism as it is commonly used means consistency, verisimilitude, consistency. The existence of magic missile does not suddenly mean all need for any realism in the game disappears. It's a subset of the other argument I hate which is the "fantasy element x exists therefore there isn't a single fantasy element of any sort which shouldn't also exist."

You can run realistic hard scifi, or 'softer' science fantasy. Etcetera.

[Mulgar]

The part of "realism" argument which falls apart for me is that it is more realistic to have a wizard pull a force missile from his mind and have it work but for some reason a laser gun can't work in the same world..... just cause.....

There has ALWAYS been technology in D&D settings. And like it or not Pathfinder is part of the D&D gaming system. Now just because it exists as a product for the Pathfinder RPG does not mean it HAS to exist in your campaign.

[The Archive]

Mulgar wrote:

The part of "realism" argument which falls apart for me is that it is more realistic to have a wizard pull a force missile from his mind and have it work but for some reason a laser gun can't work in the same world..... just cause.....

There has ALWAYS been technology in D&D settings. And like it or not Pathfinder is part of the D&D gaming system. Now just because it exists as a product for the Pathfinder RPG does not mean it HAS to exist in your campaign.

Heck, even in the base Golarion setting, the stuff basically bans itself. The whole Technic League keeps a pretty solid grip on things.

So, not only do you not have to use the book, the base setting itself pretty much bans it from use outside of Numeria.

[Bandw2]

this is like the amish arbitrarily ending human technology at the 18th century.

[Anarchy_Kanya]

Malakav wrote:

The new setting

Golarion is a few years old already. I wouldn't call it new.

[wraithstrike]

Malakav wrote:

Well as the title says, seeing the new Numeria setting, with the Technology Guide and the new adventure path Iron Gods, all I could think is "Borderlands Much?"

I got dissapointed, really, I changed from 3.5 to pathfinder because they offered me new worlds, new skills, an improved 3.75 system, everything started to make sense immediately and all clases improved in a cool way

Continuing with the Medieval theme, with iconic monsters and some othernew cool monsters

It was a straight hook, they got all the old school players to change to Path and laugh at 3.5 and the stupid 4th version

Then new classes were coming, I loved all, except 1, the Gunslinger

The Gunslinger was cheesy, Full Bab, Touch Damage, full Dex can forget all other stats except WIS, and extra damage with DEX
This was not cool because if I wanted to put a full armor tank, the gun slinger would say "oh that´s cute"

Then came the Advanced Classes or Hybrids.............

talk about OP and Unbalanced!!!

This became more and more just a videogame, where the players would just think of a build and then win, most of the times, the monsters didn´t offer much challenge and most of the time I would get frustrated as a DM, because, hey! I want to win sometimes too!

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

Don't use that part of the campaign setting or pretend it does not exist. I certainly don't run Golarion 100% as written. As an example I dont like the flavor for goblins.

As for "OP", that is subjective and varies by table. I have never had a problem with a gunslinger or 9th level casters which are much more powerful.

Why should a GM want to win? This is not supposed to be a contest between you and your players. If you mean you can not challenge the players then you should ask the people here for advice.

5th is also brand new. That is all.

[The Indescribable]

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

Any chance I can get your books then?

[Anzyr]

Malakav wrote:

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

I hope you never read the magic section of the 5E Player Handbook then lest your illusions end up shattered. But in case you ever do decide to read the magic section I highly recommend you gloss over Animate Dead, Animate Object, Contagion, Simulacrum, Wish. You might not want to look to closely at the other spells either.

Edit @ Bandw2: Thanks! Fixed.

[Bandw2]

Anzyr wrote:

The Indescribable wrote:

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

I hope you never read the magic section of the 5E Player Handbook then lest your illusions end up shattered. But in case you ever do decide to read the magic section I highly recommend you gloss over Animate Dead, Animate Object, Contagion, Simulacrum, Wish. You might not want to look to closely at the other spells either.'

those lines were a quote from the OP

[Neurophage]

Malakav wrote:

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

Have you, like, EVER read a fantasy novel that predates Lord of the Rings? Believe it or not, before Medieval European Fantasy became the order of the day and the genre stagnated beneath a mountain of imitators, those sort of things were pretty standard. Plenty of fantasy stories had barbarians with laser guns, dumb-looking tanks, evil sorcerers commanding legions of robots, cyborg warriors finding new tech to incorporate into themselves, otherwordly invaders, etc. Fantasy doesn't begin and end with Tolkien. These kinds of things are part of the genre's history, and as far as I'm concerned their return is a change for the better.

[KestrelZ]

Dear Original Poster:

I wish you luck in your journey with 5th edition D&D. Just be aware that it has only been out for two months as of this post, and that given five more years it too will receive numerous supplements that could possible topple or change the game dynamics that you currently enjoy.

Also, what is Borderlands? From the other posters I gather it is a video game, a genre of play I haven't followed much since I stopped playing the Atari 2600. Personally, I thought the Numeria setting was closer to the 1980s cartoon "Thudarr the Barbarian".

Link Thundarr

[Zhayne]

Neurophage wrote:

Malakav wrote:

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

Have you, like, EVER read a fantasy novel that predates Lord of the Rings? Believe it or not, before Medieval European Fantasy became the order of the day and the genre stagnated beneath a mountain of imitators, those sort of things were pretty standard. Plenty of fantasy stories had barbarians with laser guns, dumb-looking tanks, evil sorcerers commanding legions of robots, cyborg warriors finding new tech to incorporate into themselves, otherwordly invaders, etc. Fantasy doesn't begin and end with Tolkien. These kinds of things are part of the genre's history, and as far as I'm concerned their return is a change for the better.

*thunderous applause*

[TriOmegaZero]

Malakav wrote:

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

Thank you for your opinion. I hope you enjoy your gaming, whatever system you settle on.

[The Indescribable]

Bandw2 wrote:

Anzyr wrote:

The Indescribable wrote:

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

I hope you never read the magic section of the 5E Player Handbook then lest your illusions end up shattered. But in case you ever do decide to read the magic section I highly recommend you gloss over Animate Dead, Animate Object, Contagion, Simulacrum, Wish. You might not want to look to closely at the other spells either.'

those lines were a quote from the OP

I'm aware, Not sure how that happened. Must have deleted a tag somewhere.

[The Indescribable]

KestrelZ wrote:

Dear Original Poster:

I wish you luck in your journey with 5th edition D&D. Just be aware that it has only been out for two months as of this post, and that given five more years it too will receive numerous supplements that could possible topple or change the game dynamics that you currently enjoy.

Also, what is Borderlands? From the other posters I gather it is a video game, a genre of play I haven't followed much since I stopped playing the Atari 2600. Personally, I thought the Numeria setting was closer to the 1980s cartoon "Thudarr the Barbarian".

Link Thundarr

Ha. glad somebody else remembers this, Haven't read the setting so can't give my opinion on that, I watch the new ninja turtles series, and each season they switch favorite television show, from star trek parody, to voltron parody, and this season? Thundarr.

[Paulicus]

I can relate a bit, as PFS season 6 is introducing some of these elements. Luckily they've said technology will only play a major role in a few scenarios, though it still seems odd to introduce it on such a large scale.

[Pendagast]

Malakav wrote:

Well as the title says, seeing the new Numeria setting, with the Technology Guide and the new adventure path Iron Gods, all I could think is "Borderlands Much?"

I got dissapointed, really, I changed from 3.5 to pathfinder because they offered me new worlds, new skills, an improved 3.75 system, everything started to make sense immediately and all clases improved in a cool way

Continuing with the Medieval theme, with iconic monsters and some othernew cool monsters

It was a straight hook, they got all the old school players to change to Path and laugh at 3.5 and the stupid 4th version

Then new classes were coming, I loved all, except 1, the Gunslinger

The Gunslinger was cheesy, Full Bab, Touch Damage, full Dex can forget all other stats except WIS, and extra damage with DEX
This was not cool because if I wanted to put a full armor tank, the gun slinger would say "oh that´s cute"

Then came the Advanced Classes or Hybrids.............

talk about OP and Unbalanced!!!

This became more and more just a videogame, where the players would just think of a build and then win, most of the times, the monsters didn´t offer much challenge and most of the time I would get frustrated as a DM, because, hey! I want to win sometimes too!

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

OP and unbalanced?

The hybrid classes?

please do tell.

Start with Skald, shaman and investigator and tell me all about how they are unbalanced and OP?

The only thing that disappoints me about Pathfinder is, that during beta testing, they decided to drop the idea of the Barbarian rage pool, in favor of times per day/per rage…and then proceeded to introduce, pools for a half dozen other classes.

I want my rage pool rules back!

[TriOmegaZero]

Paulicus wrote:

I can relate a bit, as PFS season 6 is introducing some of these elements. Luckily they've said technology will only play a major role in a few scenarios, though it still seems odd to introduce it on such a large scale.

You can certainly see the truth of their words in Beacon Below and Slave Ships of Absalom.

[bookrat]

Malakav wrote:

Well as the title says, seeing the new Numeria setting, with the Technology Guide and the new adventure path Iron Gods, all I could think is "Borderlands Much?"

Original Numeria setting released date: September 9, 2008

Original Borderlands video-game release: October 20, 2009

Numeria is totally a copy of Boderlands! So much so that it went into the future in order to copy it! This must be testament to how awesome Numeria is that it can use futuristic writings in order to create itself. Heck, it's probably how the Paizo staff was able to get so many great ideas - they just went into the future! This reminds me of the time when ignorant people were claiming that Warhammer 40k was a ripoff of Starcraft.

[Paulicus]

I think I've only played 6-02 so far. I've heard good things about Slave Ships though.

[Rub-Eta]

I can't tell if the guy is trolling or not... Because what I just read was "Pathfinder offers play-styles I like, but it also offers other play-styles that I don't like (and that I don't need to put up with because I can play games without technology eventhough there is a book for it), that's why I don't like the game".

The ACG is far from OP and Unbalanced. The Barbarian is still the best martial class (and even if it isn't, is that a problem compared to:) and wizard is still god above all else.

And why compare it to Borderlands? Lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships are in no way a signature to Borderlands, it's more so to many other sci-fi games/settings.

[TOZ]

Rub-Eta wrote:

And why compare it to Borderlands? Lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships are in no way a signature to Borderlands, it's more so to many other sci-fi games/settings.

A much better choice would have been Timesplitters. Much more classic.

[bookrat]

Paulicus wrote:

I've heard good things about Slave Ships though.

That is a very odd statement to see.

[Robert Carter 58]

Malakav wrote:

Well as the title says, seeing the new Numeria setting, with the Technology Guide and the new adventure path Iron Gods, all I could think is "Borderlands Much?"

I got dissapointed, really, I changed from 3.5 to pathfinder because they offered me new worlds, new skills, an improved 3.75 system, everything started to make sense immediately and all clases improved in a cool way

Continuing with the Medieval theme, with iconic monsters and some othernew cool monsters

It was a straight hook, they got all the old school players to change to Path and laugh at 3.5 and the stupid 4th version

Then new classes were coming, I loved all, except 1, the Gunslinger

The Gunslinger was cheesy, Full Bab, Touch Damage, full Dex can forget all other stats except WIS, and extra damage with DEX
This was not cool because if I wanted to put a full armor tank, the gun slinger would say "oh that´s cute"

Then came the Advanced Classes or Hybrids.............

talk about OP and Unbalanced!!!

This became more and more just a videogame, where the players would just think of a build and then win, most of the times, the monsters didn´t offer much challenge and most of the time I would get frustrated as a DM, because, hey! I want to win sometimes too!

The new setting reeks of a vile ripoff of Borderlands, come on!, lasers, bazookas, aliens and motherships?? LAME

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

Well... if you are the GM, you should be telling a story with your players not "trying to win". You can decide what flavor of game you are running. Classic swords and sorcery is perfectly fine. I like that stuff too. I also like gonzo sci-fi. I like horror. I like planescape stuff. Golarion is a kitchen-sink kind of setting. It has a little of everything. Take what you like, leave the rest. No gunslingers when you run, hey that's cool.

Players can be a bit twitchy though, I get it, when you tell them no. But you need to do that sometimes. When I ran 3.5 there was a Druid spell in a splatbook that basically said "this spell tells you your opponents hit dice" It was a 2nd level spell. I said BANNED. No questions. I gave an explaination. They didn't like it. But what if later, in my campaign I decided that the barkeep was secretly a gold dragon in diguise all along? I know my players. The druid PC would be spamming that spell like crazy if she had it. Nope... Also very "metagamey" (hitdice don't exist) but I digress.

Just create YOUR game the way YOU want. Tell your players no. And stop whining, will ya :)

[Zhayne]

People who think the hybrid classes are broke have never looked at the wizards, clerics, and druids of the world ... sheesh.

[Finn Kveldulfr]

The OP almost has to be trolling.

either that, or the OP is completely ignorant of the history and heritage of roleplaying games, and does not know anything about genuine "old school" RPGs.

(another big hint on science fiction in your fantasy soup-- the original Blackmoor campaign, the first RPG campaign, included science fiction elements. For that stuff appearing in text-- check out the original 'Blackmoor' supplement to OD&D, specifically 'The Temple of the Frog' part at the end. Official date of publication 1975. Hmmm... so tech in D&D is new?)

[Zhayne]

bookrat wrote:

Malakav wrote:

Well as the title says, seeing the new Numeria setting, with the Technology Guide and the new adventure path Iron Gods, all I could think is "Borderlands Much?"

Original Numeria setting released date: September 9, 2008

Original Borderlands video-game release: October 20, 2009

Numeria is totally a copy of Boderlands! So much so that it went into the future in order to copy it! This must be testament to how awesome Numeria is that it can use futuristic writings in order to create itself. Heck, it's probably how the Paizo staff was able to get so many great ideas - they just went into the future! This reminds me of the time when ignorant people were claiming that Warhammer 40k was a ripoff of Starcraft.

Or people saying Harry Potter was a ripoff of Twilight, or that the Beatles totally stole Justin Bieber's hairstyle.

[wraithstrike]

Anzyr wrote:

Malakav wrote:

I changed to 5th because everything became balanced there, I just wanted to see if anybody else feels dissapointed on Pathfinder like me

PD For the peolpe WHO STILL LIKE PATH, this in NO WAY affects you, if you like the system good for you, i just changed opinion that is all

I hope you never read the magic section of the 5E Player Handbook then lest your illusions end up shattered. But in case you ever do decide to read the magic section I highly recommend you gloss over Animate Dead, Animate Object, Contagion, Simulacrum, Wish. You might not want to look to closely at the other spells either.

Edit @ Bandw2: Thanks! Fixed.

What do those do? I dont have a copy of the book.

[swoosh]

The really funny thing here is that Spelljammer is one of the settings they're publishing 5e material for.

[wraithstrike]

He is not a troll, but from scanning his other post his understanding of the rules is questionable. It also seems that he is fairly new to PF/3.5 so it is no surprise that he does not know the history of the game.

[Anzyr]

Pendagast wrote:

OP and unbalanced?

The hybrid classes?

please do tell.

Start with Skald, shaman and investigator and tell me all about how they are unbalanced and OP?

While Skald and Investigator certainly aren't OP, the Shaman is incredibly strong. As strong as a Wizard? Probably not, but keep in mind that it has it's own (very weird) spell list, can add Cleric spells to its class list with a FCB (assuming it works after spells known FAQ), and can get CHA modifier of different Wizard/Sorcerer spells each day thanks to Wandering Spirit or Spirit Talker. Keep in mind it can also mug the best Witches Hexes and some it's hexes are improved versions of already good Witch's Hexes like Chant being (Ex) instead of (Su) and Shaman's Evil Eye not being mind-affecting. But wait... there's more! You get a list of spontaneous spells that improves to one set list and one flexible list at 4th level, you get spirit abilities, only one less Hex then Witches (one of which is flexible!), you have 4+INT skill points, 3/4th BAB, a familiar, and you have the every odd level spell casting progression of Clerics/Druids/Wizards.

Clerics everywhere are cursing their terrible terrible Class features. In fact, I'm taking the Shaman Class as an apology for how bad Clerics are in Pathfinder.

[wraithstrike]

I might need to read the shaman. That looks really good.

I would have asked him to show how the swashbuckler was OP. :)

[swoosh]

Yeah.. Shaman and Arcanists are amazing (and while not strictly OP, Skalds are a b~!%~ in a large or melee heavy party)... but I just find it hard to take that the ACG is the straw that broke the camel's back in terms of power right after he says that the Gunslinger is the only class he takes issue with in the whole game.

Sacred Geometry, Paragon Surge, Wizards, Master Summoners, Witches? No problem. Gunslingers and Bloodragers and Investigators? Too much to hande!

Though I am questioning the "Clerics are terrible" sentiment a bit.