I am currently looking at one of my players, a synthesist summoner, routinely stealing the show in combat.
He currently has an AC of well above 30, and a flat damage bonus of +32 including feats but not dice. With improved critical he's got a crit range of 15-20/x2 putting that at a juicy 64 damage even before the dice are factored in.
I will post the exact build later because I dont have his character sheet here. But for now suffice it to say he has a large bipedal eidolon wielding a huge katana and also having a bite attack. If space allows he uses a wand of enlarge person for just a little more damage and extra reach.
And I wonder if these stats are still within a normal range for a 12th level character, considering he also has spellcasting at his disposal it seems a bit much to me, but then again ,there is no other dedicated melee character in the party to compare him to and this is pretty much the first time i've had a group long enough to get to this level.
As I said, I will post the exact build when i have his character sheet because i also find it difficult to follow how he got to the numbers i posted, mostly cncerning damage (i know eidolons can have ridiculous AC especially if their shield ally ability instead permanently applies to themselves)
CR appropriate monsters often seem to have some difficulty hitting him, and even when they do there is this huge pool of hit points to dig through. With well above 30 i mean his AC is probably somewhere around 40 and CR 12 monsters wiggle around at +20 for their attack bonuses.
How above 30 AC is well above? I've seen players get to the low thirties before 12 but players, especially ones new to the game, tend to stack bonuses that they shouldn't be... have you audited the Eidolon? +32 static damage would be a +4 weapon at best, right? So 1.5 strength and power attack is providing the other +28? A BAB of 9 would give you +9 leaving 19 points to account for. Strength around 34 would get you there.
I ninjad you with that, I dont have the exact number but i think he's very close to the 40 mark on his AC.
I have audited the eidolon when we started playing and aside from an EP misallocation for a STR increase it was fine (he paid the normal EP price although he was large) but i want to go over it again, to see if i missed anything or he made a mistake while leveling it up in the meantime.
his strength should be at 32 or 33 right now not counting magic items (16 base form, +5 for his level, + 8 for lage evolution, and +2 for a StR increase evolution), with BAB 9 you get +9 damage from power attack so +24 i can definitely account for. Given that his sword has a lightning enchantment i don't expect it to have more than a +2 enhancement.
I don't only have doubts whether his build is technically legal but rather whether it is overpowered even if it is legal. which is mainly why i ask what the average on an equal level melee character is.
And I wonder if these stats are still within a normal range for a 12th level character, considering he also has spellcasting at his disposal it seems a bit much to me,
It might be because the synthesist summoner is one of the most broken things in the game, heck, you are lucky he didn't pick up the Quad form and take Pounce + as many arms as he can buy. An AC of around 30-32 sounds about average for what I would expect from a synthesist summoner, so it seems to look ok at first glance.
With improved critical he's got a crit range of 15-20/x2I would question the crit range. Natural attacks are typically 20/x2, going to 19-20/x2 with Improved Critical.
It's for his katana. He only uses an oversized katana (so two-handed only with a -2 attack penalty) and a bite attack.
And I wonder if these stats are still within a normal range for a 12th level character, considering he also has spellcasting at his disposal it seems a bit much to me,It might be because the synthesist summoner is one of the most broken things in the game, heck, you are lucky he didn't pick up the Quad form and take Pounce + as many arms as he can buy. An AC of around 30-32 sounds about average for what I would expect from a synthesist summoner, so it seems to look ok at first glance.
We're close to a level where a regular summoner can do all the things a synthesist does but is also split from their eidolon and can cast spells while full attacking. So it's certainly not the archetype's fault. If anything it's the class itself.
If you are having a problem as a GM, talk to the player and simply ask him to tone it down. Especially if you feel he is overshadowing the other players in the group.
Alternatively, if you have access to Hero Lab it might be worth it to put his build into it as a quick way of verifying his numbers. Summoners Eidolon's, esepecially Synthesist Summoners, are incredibly difficult to use at times. The ruels are confusing, and it's very easy to make mistakes when calculating. Auditing his build may reveal inaccuracies.
It's for his katana. He only uses an oversized katana (so two-handed only with a -2 attack penalty) and a bite attack.
Does he have exotic weapon proficiency katana? If not he cannot use this weapon. A katana is a two-handed weapon as martial proficiency. In order for it to be counted as a one-handed wepaon you require EWP. If he has the exotic weapon proficiency, he can then wield a katana one size category larger than normal, as a two-handed weapon for a -2. Without the proficiency, it would be a two-handed weapon that would move up to a size category that does not exist, and therefore cannot be done.
...! I have the answer! sweet!
This is the single most optimized CRB fighter that's possible.
This is a non optimized CRB only fighte,. going for a build a close to the "average player" as possible.
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...! I have the answer! sweet!
This is the single most optimized CRB fighter that's possible.
This is a non optimized CRB only fighte,. going for a build a close to the "average player" as possible.
Yeah, use these numbers to compare. They're very helpful.
Post his full attack routine for reference.
:-)
If you use the crit deck you'll drastically reduce that damage!
With what Cheapy and Arskangiel posted, his output seems to be within reason after all. But he still has a lot of AC, HP and that spellcasting which of course is always an edge over your average mundane fighter.
Oh and yes, he does have EWP (Katana)
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As a comparison, here is Celebrian at 10th level.
Strength is not her focus and she's sword & board. With an extra 2 levels she would upgrade her belt to +4, grab gloves of dueling, and be a Shield Master (AC enhancement bonus on shield applied to attacks.)
Quick & Dirty bump to 12th level would be: +2 Longsword +21/+16/+10 (1d8+24/17-20/x2) & +3 Light Shield +20/+15 (1d3+16/20/x2). Armor class would hit 40.
I could certainly optimize further (change longsword to scimitar, grab Arcane Strike, upgrade weapon, etc.)
Keep in mind, if the synths damage is any where near the highly optimized fighter, that's pretty indicative :-)
The issue with synths is that they're able to match fighter damage, but have far more hit points and better saves, with comparable AC.
And spells.
Don't look at just damage! :-)
Wow, so cheap, a human fighter at level 12 with +6 Dex with mithral full plate as well as dodge, he will only get 26. If he doesn't use two handed weapon and grab a tower shield, then he gets 30 AC which still sucks as he has to take -2 to hit. Say he gets +5 strength because if dual talented and dumping all his other stats, his damage will still be less than that. with two handed weapon, +13 damage flat, if power attack, +25.
I'll probably have to do something. The player knows i reserve the right to put nerfs on his character I told him that when he picked his class because I suspected something like this was going to happen. I'll have to see his character up close though. First check if it's completely legal, and then see about the nerf hammer.
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Wow, so cheap, a human fighter at level 12 with +6 Dex with mithral full plate as well as dodge, he will only get 26. If he doesn't use two handed weapon and grab a tower shield, then he gets 30 AC which still sucks as he has to take -2 to hit. Say he gets +5 strength because if dual talented and dumping all his other stats, his damage will still be less than that. with two handed weapon, +13 damage flat, if power attack, +25.
Cheapy was limiting himself to CRB options only, compared to a non-CRB build.
The fighter I linked would have +24 damage on a 1-handed weapon and a considerably higher AC, even without her shield. With only minor changes, the character I linked could hit +27 damage with a 1-handed weapon.
The fighter I linked could, if desired, two-hand her longsword for +32 damage, swap out angel-blooded for Arcane Strike and she would have a +35 damage bonus. This is on a fighter that started with a 14 strength. Without the shield bonus, she still has an AC of 32 at 10th level.
Yep, I was using Core only, to get a baseline for what was intended as the power level with regards to damage capabilities. (Also, Rogue Eidolon, known as the guy who wrote a guide to the Core fighter, basically made the character I specifically used to generate the Optimized Fighter numbers.)
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I am currently looking at one of my players, a synthesist summoner, routinely stealing the show in combat.
He currently has an AC of well above 30, and a flat damage bonus of +32 including feats but not dice. With improved critical he's got a crit range of 15-20/x2 putting that at a juicy 64 damage even before the dice are factored in.
I will post the exact build later because I dont have his character sheet here. But for now suffice it to say he has a large bipedal eidolon wielding a huge katana and also having a bite attack. If space allows he uses a wand of enlarge person for just a little more damage and extra reach.
And I wonder if these stats are still within a normal range for a 12th level character, considering he also has spellcasting at his disposal it seems a bit much to me, but then again ,there is no other dedicated melee character in the party to compare him to and this is pretty much the first time i've had a group long enough to get to this level.
As I said, I will post the exact build when i have his character sheet because i also find it difficult to follow how he got to the numbers i posted, mostly cncerning damage (i know eidolons can have ridiculous AC especially if their shield ally ability instead permanently applies to themselves)
Well the first thing that jumps out is the wand of enlarge person doesn't work. An eidolon is an outsider and enlarge person only works on humanoids.
AlsoHe counts as both his original type and as an outsider for any effect related to type, whichever is worse for the synthesist.
So take a closer look at what buffs he's using and see which ones this comment here makes illegal.
Other than that Summoners are broken and Synthesists are broken on top of broken, but you knew that when they brought the class to you.
+22~24 to hit (with PA), d10+27~30 crit 15-20x2, AC 25~28, T 14~17, FF 21~24.
Edit: that's for "reasonably optimized," for full-on optimized add +5 to those, for "wow, I was bad to a GM in a previous life and I am being punished by this player via God as penance for that," add +10 to those.