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I've seen variations on this crop up a few times, so I want to start more centralized post so we can hopefully get some clarity.
Example 1: A fighter with the Lore Warden archetype ("All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.") takes the Precise Treatment trait ("...you may use your Intelligence modifier when making Heal checks instead of your Wisdom modifier."). Is Heal a class skill for him?
Example 1b: A fighter with the Lore Warden archetype takes the Student of Philosophy trait ("You can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and on Bluff checks to convince others that a lie is true."). Do Diplomacy and Bluff count as class skills for him? Do they count as class skills only in those specific circumstances?
Example 2: An Inquisitor with the Conversion inquisition ("You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.") dons a circlet of persuasion ("This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Charisma-based checks."). Does she still gain the +3 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate?
Example 1: A fighter with the Lore Warden archetype ("All Intelligence-based skills are class skills for lore wardens.") takes the Precise Treatment trait ("...you may use your Intelligence modifier when making Heal checks instead of your Wisdom modifier."). Is Heal a class skill for him?
No. Using your intelligence modifier instead of your wisdom modifier is an OPTION (because of the use of the word 'may'). Heal remains based on Wisdom.
Example 1b: A fighter with the Lore Warden archetype takes the Student of Philosophy trait ("You can use your Intelligence modifier in place of your Charisma modifier on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and on Bluff checks to convince others that a lie is true."). Do Diplomacy and Bluff count as class skills for him? Do they count as class skills only in those specific circumstances?
No. Again, 'can replace' is not the same as 'replaces'.
Example 2: An Inquisitor with the Conversion inquisition ("You use your Wisdom modifier instead of your Charisma modifier when making Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate checks.") dons a circlet of persuasion ("This silver headband grants a +3 competence bonus on the wearer's Charisma-based checks."). Does she still gain the +3 bonus on Bluff, Diplomacy, and Intimidate?
This one is murkier, because the replacement is not optional.
I want to say that the skills themselves are not modified and remain based on the stat they are based on, but the character (optionally in some cases) uses a different modifier. But since I'm not 100% certain, I'll hit the FAQ button for you.
They generally dislike when FAQ is in the title, and they usually edit it away.
While I've seen a number of questions related to swapping ability score usage of skills, I can't think of any threads asking this same question, and do not recall it coming up often enough to be called "frequently asked".
I agree with SlimGauge on the first two responses of his. Class skills are binary things: they're either class skills or they're not. A circumstantially class skill is a silly concept, and I highly doubt that it is the intent for some skills to be class skills in only some circumstances.
If this is for PFS, use the most conservative interpretation.
RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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I know I've certainly seen this come up before.
As for the "most conservative ruling", what's the most conservative ruling when your Lore Warden uses a trait to get INT to Bluff and then dons a circlet of persuasion? If Bluff still counts as CHA-based, then it's not a class skill but gets the circlet bonus. If it counts as INT-based, then it doesn't get the circlet bonus but does become a class skill. So which way's the conservative one?
I want to say that the skills themselves are not modified and remain based on the stat they are based on, but the character (optionally in some cases) uses a different modifier. But since I'm not 100% certain, I'll hit the FAQ button for you.
I want to think you're right, and you probably are, because I really want a circlet of persuasion on my 20 Int/5 Cha Student of Philosophy magus. And there are some Charisma-subbing abilities out there that seem to make the circlet broken.
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When I make an FAQ request, I generally try to show that it's a "frequently asked question", so I did some research for you:
Circlet of Persuasion and Conversion or Heresy Inquisitions
Does a Lore Warden with Pragmatic Activator get UMD as a class skill? Can he spend his bonus skill points on UMD?
Ability Substitution and Categorization
Circlet of Persuasion & Conversion Domain
Oracle of Lore + Circlet of Persuasion
Lore Warden + Pragmatic Activator
Improving Initiative
Circlet of Persuasion and Noble Scion of War
Ability score based skill checks...can they be changed?
Lore Mystery question
Circlet of Persuasion + Lore Keeper revelation?
Lore keeper revelation question
Hope that helps!
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FAQ'd, and I'll give my 2cp. An ability-based check should be considered based off of whatever primary ability score modifies it. So with traits that say you "may" replace Cha w/Int, then you should treat it as Int-based, not Cha-based. Of course, this is just my opinion on the matter, and easily could be wrong.
I think I'm with EvilPaladin here. If the skill check is modified by your Wisdom, no matter what it was originally based off of, then it is, by definition, a wisdom-based skill. If it's a 'may' swap, it's whichever ability you're actually using.
Bump.
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I'm inclined to think that if an item lets you use a different ability score on a skill/save/whatever, it would still apply to the original ability score, not the new one - that's a different effect.
For example, if you have a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to charisma checks) and the Conversion Inquisition (wis instead of cha on skills), the +3 bonus technically still applies, but only if you use Diplomacy/Bluff/Intimidate with the way your character uses his/her charisma.
The item doesn't have the capability to enhance your wisdom, and your character doesn't have some sort of special ability to change the item's effect (ie. the Conversion ability wouldn't do that).
Official Rules Response
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Alternate Ability Score-Based Checks: If I change the key ability score of a skill (or other check), for example, if I change Knowledge from Intelligence to Charisma, is it no-longer an Intelligence-based check? Is it now a Charisma-based check?
Generally yes—at the time of rolling a check, if you substitute the ability score, the check is now based on the new ability score. In the example, at the time of rolling, Knowledge would now be a Charisma-based skill and not an Intelligence-based skill for you, which would affect things like feats, spells, or items that grant bonuses on checks based on their key ability score (like circlet of persuasion). However, if you are adding a second ability modifier to a check, this is not the case. For instance, when adding both Wisdom and Dexterity on initiative checks, initiative is still a Dexterity check, not a Wisdom check. Also, this changes the check only at the time of rolling, so this does not change static class features or options made during character building such as your class’s class skills. Classes that receive “all Intelligence-based skills” as class skills, for instance, are the victim of sloppy writing, and furthermore sometimes effects might muddy the water by only changing the ability dependency sometimes and not others, which is why you check the new dependency only for a specific given roll.
Neat.
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Quick question. I'm unclear on the last part.
I'll use my Eldritch Knight as an example. I gave him the Clever Wordplay social Trait so he'd treat Diplomacy as an Intelligence-based skill, thus becoming a class skill when he took a level in Lore Warden.
It seems that the FAQ is referencing this very combination, but I can't tell what the answer is.
Edit: looking for a super simple answer here. Less than 10 words. Don't need paragraph upon paragraph.
I can confirm that the FAQ is specifically saying what Jeff Merola said, in the place he quoted. Diplomacy is also not an option for those 2 skills points that have to be Int skills.
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Darn. Ok.
That was a combination that I was pretty sure worked together.
I could understand why something like Student of Philosophy wouldn't work, since sometimes it's Int-based, and sometimes it's not, but I figured if the skill was being changed completely then it'd work fine.
That seemed to be what the last part of the FAQ was confirming.
I did have a further question. Does swapping away from Strength or Dexterity remove ACP? On the one hand, ACP says it applies to Strength and Dexterity skills. On the other, each of those skills also specifically says that ACP applies to them, and I'm not sure if that's to be treated just as a generic reminder, or not.
Probably both, so all those skills have ACP since they say they do, and if you make a mental skill physical then it'll have it too.
I did have a further question. Does swapping away from Strength or Dexterity remove ACP? On the one hand, ACP says it applies to Strength and Dexterity skills. On the other, each of those skills also specifically says that ACP applies to them, and I'm not sure if that's to be treated just as a generic reminder, or not.Probably both, so all those skills have ACP since they say they do, and if you make a mental skill physical then it'll have it too.
This ruling makes Versatile performance a nice ability.