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Ok, so I have an Oracle of Lore who just hit fifth level, and I have to choose a feat. He is the parties only spellcaster, so I do mostly utility spells for him, and hes also real good at knowledge skills and social skills (bluff, diplo, sense motive). Also, he just got a Circlet of Persuasion (+3 to Charisma based checks).
I was thinking of taking extra revelation as his 5th level feat, and getting the Lore Keeper revelation (he could use Cha instead of Int for knowledge skill checks). He already has Sidestep secret and focused trance, and I plan on taking Mental Acuity (+1 inherent bonus to intelligence at 7th and every 3 levels thereafter) at 7th level.
He has a 15 Int (+2 mod) and a 21 Cha (+5 mod) at the moment. Both of those are unbuffed and with no magic items boosting either. By eigth level both of those will be up by 1 point, increasing the mod by 1 each.
My question is this: If he does take Lore Keeper so that he can make knowledge checks using Cha instead of Int, will his Circlet of Persuasion bonus to charisma based checks then apply to his knowledge skills?
If so, that will give him a huge boost to his knowledge checks, essentially a +6 to all knowledges (+5 Cha vs +2 Int, and then the +3 from the Circlet).
It seems as if the circlet would apply in this case; I can't really see a reason it wouldn't.
However, if it were to not apply, I probably wouldn't take the extra revelation feat to get Lorekeeper. Theres quite a few feats I could make use of. And while a +3 boost to all knowledge skills is nice, it doesn't sell to me like a +6 bonus would. And I probably wouldn't get the revelation till 15th level if thats that case (taking Mental Acuity at 7th and Arcane Archivist at 11th.)
Any thoughts on this?
Technically it is hard to say if it would work.
Circlet of Persuasion gives +3 competence bonus to Charisma-based check.
Lore Keeper allows use of Charisma modifier instead of Intelligence modifier on Knowledge checks. It would require GM judgement if that turns Knowledge into Charisma-based check or if it still counts as Intelligence-based with only value of modifier replaced.
I would ask your GM... If it where me I would say no. You have abilty that let you use different stat to make the check but it still INT check base skill. Either way it not game breaking.
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We have an Oracle of Lore in our Kingmaker game. She has the Sidestep Secret, the extra revelation feat and Lorekeeper. We're only at 1st level (just started playing yesterday).
This definitely falls under your GM's judgement, but in case your GM wants to know what others think, I vote for letting the circlet apply. You've taken a feat and applied an ability that works with your Charisma, in which you've obviously invested heavily. The Circlet fills a body slot, so you're focusing even more of your resources into that ability score. I think you should be able to benefit from that combination.
Thanks for your feedback guys. Much appreciated.
A couple followups:
Drejik, Tom S: yeah thats where I got stuck in thinking this through. Does Lorekeeper make knowledge checks Charisma based checks for the Oracle, or are they still Intelligence based checks, just using Charisma instead of Int? Still, I'm pretty certain that anything boosting or penalizing Int wouldn't affect the Lorekeepers knowledge checks, but that things affecting his Cha would (such as a headband boosting Cha). So it seems somewhat counterintuitive to say that its still and Intelligence based check.
Paris: Yes, it does require some feat investment to gain the benefits of this, and relies on a magic item too. One which occupies a body slot. I'd note though that it uses up a different slot from the headbands which boosts mental stats...there is a headband slot and a head slot. But it would prevent use of say a hat of disguise (which would be very useful to him).
And yeah, I don't think its game breaking. It is knowledge checks we are talking about here!
Although it does have me thinking of maybe trying to put together a character who goes all out on benefitting from one ability score. Say a Paladin/Oracle of Lore that would have Cha apply to AC and saves and knowledge checks, as well as gaining the benefits on smites. Wonder if theres anything else someone like that could use to benefit from Cha?
We have an Oracle of Lore in our Kingmaker game. She has the Sidestep Secret, the extra revelation feat and Lorekeeper. We're only at 1st level (just started playing yesterday).
This definitely falls under your GM's judgement, but in case your GM wants to know what others think, I vote for letting the circlet apply. You've taken a feat and applied an ability that works with your Charisma, in which you've obviously invested heavily. The Circlet fills a body slot, so you're focusing even more of your resources into that ability score. I think you should be able to benefit from that combination.
Its been a fun character to play. I'm playing mine in the Council of Theives game, and we just finished the major part of the 2nd chapter. Hes not much use in combat aside from the occassional Cause Fear and Hold Person, but hes great when it comes to social scenes and knowledge stuff. He was the star of the show! if you are familiar with that adventure. As he gets more spells he will be a much bigger asset in combat.
I made him before the APG came out, so at 1st level I just took Combat Casting and Toughness. But since hes never in the front line hes never come close to having his hitpoints depleted, so I would probably have not taken Toughness if I had access to the APG at the time.
I took Cosmopolitan at 3rd level to give him Linguistics and Use Magic Device as class skills. He has a great UMD score now, so that will open up use of arcane spells too via wands and scrolls.
What I've noticed is that he is very hungry for skill points. He is human so that helps, and Int is his second best stat, and for his first 3 levels he took the additional skill point as his favored class bonus, so he was getting 8 a level. And thats not enough! At 4th and from now on he'll obviously be taking the human oracle favored class bonus of additional spells known...thats just too great to pass up, especially for a spontaneous caster and the only caster in the party. But he has perception (class skill due to campaign trait), UMD, Sense Motive, and Spellcraft maxed. And he has ranks in Diplomacy, bluff, appraise, linguistics, and 8 knowledge skills. Its really hard keeping those base skills maxed as well as keeping up on the social and knowledge skills. And to be honest I'd like some ranks in disguise and stealth too!
But he is very fun to play, especially in a campaign filled with lots of intrigue.
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In another thread, Sean Reynolds recently suggested that a Sorcerer's Caster Level check, modified by his Charisma modifier, counted as a 'Charisma-based check' for purposes of the Circlet of Persuasion, so, if that logic holds, the Circlet should also apply to a Lore Oracles Cha-modified skill checks, or a Paladin's Cha-modified saving throws.
If your GM agrees with that logic, go for it.
Sean Reynolds recently suggested that a Sorcerer's Caster Level check, modified by his Charisma modifier, counted as a 'Charisma-based check' for purposes of the Circlet of Persuasion, so, if that logic holds, the Circlet should also apply to a Lore Oracles Cha-modified skill checks, or a Paladin's Cha-modified saving throws.
If your GM agrees with that logic, go for it.
In case of Paladin's Divine Grace I would definitely said that Circlet Of Persuasion does not apply - saving throws I consider Constitution/Dexterity/Wisdom-based checks, as appropriate with additional bonus from Charisma due to class ability. Still other GMs might allow that bonus to apply.
With the class ability they do become charisma based checks so by the rules I would say the answer is yes.
Having played a lore oracle before, I cant see why you'd want to take Lore Keeper if you have Focused Trance. The +20 should already be putting you into the impossible to fail category with ranks and your int, most Knowledges should be at a +30, right?
Unless you have a Charisma 20 points higher than your Int, Think On It would probably be better for those rare occasions when a +30 isn't enough and you need a +40 instead.
The trance takes 1d6 rounds. The other ability is always on, and allows you to not focus on two abilities any more than you want to, which is also less gold you have to spend in the long run to boost both of them. When you really have to succeed the Trance is better. Most of the time such as when you are fighting monsters, you need an answer right now,
and the Lore ability boost the chance of you getting that right answer.edit:for clarity
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In case of Paladin's Divine Grace I would definitely said that Circlet Of Persuasion does not apply - saving throws I consider Constitution/Dexterity/Wisdom-based checks, as appropriate with additional bonus from Charisma due to class ability. Still other GMs might allow that bonus to apply.
This is an interesting distinction. I hadn't really thought about it, but I guess that this would make the difference between purchasing a Circlet of Persuasion vice a Headband of Alluring Charisma +6.
With both items, you're still adding +3 to Charisma-based checks, but the Headband would actually add the +3 to your Charisma modifier. If there isn't a distinction, why have the Headband +6 cost so much more? It makes sense that the circlet wouldn't impact things like saving throws because it isn't actually adding to your Charisma modifier. It's just giving you a bonus on Charisma-based checks.
I also noticed that you could actually wear both a circlet and a headband and that their effects would stack (competence bonus for the circlet and enhancement bonus for the headband). Interesting...and a little bit confusing for me, now.
Let's see.
Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks.
While
Divine Grace (Su): At 2nd level, a paladin gains a bonus equal to her Charisma bonus (if any) on all saving throws.
Looking at the difference in wording (emphasis above is mine), I'd say that Lore Keeper actually makes Knowledge checks become Cha-based. Divine Grace clearly does not make Saving Throws into Cha-based checks, so the Circlet would not apply. The headband, however, would impact both abilities.
With the class ability they do become charisma based checks so by the rules I would say the answer is yes.
Rules do not define "ability-based checks" so the matter cannot be decided on the RAW level. This is one of the things which GMs have to decide on their own. My own interpretation is that each check might be "based" only on a single ability inherent to the check itself and any other ability used (due to class/racial/other feature or ability) as additional bonus or as replacment for the value of base ability does not change the "ability descriptor" of the check.
Example: when Paladin uses Smite Evil he adds his Charisma bonus to attack rolls but acciording to my interpretation it does not turn such attack roll into Charisma based check. It remains Strength-based check (or Dexterity-based if used with ranged attack).With both items, you're still adding +3 to Charisma-based checks, but the Headband would actually add the +3 to your Charisma modifier. If there isn't a distinction, why have the Headband +6 cost so much more? It makes sense that the circlet it wouldn't impact things like saving throws because it isn't actually adding to your Charisma modifier. It's just giving you a bonus on Charisma-based checks.
The difference is more visible with Channel Energy/Lay On Hands and similar abilities that have effects/number of uses based on Charisma modifier without rolling.
I also noticed that you could actually wear both a circlet and a headband and that their effects would stack (competence bonus for the circlet and enhancement bonus for the headband). Interesting...and a little bit confusing for me, now.
Note that, even if Circlet Of Persuasion would grant enhancement bonus to checks they rather should stack: Circlet grants bonus directly to checks while Headband grants bonus to ability score.
The trance takes 1d6 rounds. The other ability is always one, and allows you to not focus on two abilities any more than you want to, which is also less gold you have to spend in the long run to boost both of them. When you really have to succeed the Trance is better, most of the time, such as when you are fighting monsters you need an answer right now, and the Lore ability boost the chance of you getting the right answer.Hmm... true, true.
I think it likely comes down to gaming style, then. My lore oracle that I went through Kingmaker with only had an int of 12, and in fact only put 1 rank into most knowledge skills. Given the low DCs on knowledge checks (there is another thread currently about this), that's all you really need and being MAD isn't really an issue. In fact, my biggest gripe is that the lore oracle has extremely redundant revelations.
I'm just curious how often people make knowledge checks, and in combat for that matter? I say it must be a matter of play style because my group tends to kill things quickly and then dally around taking 10 to identify the whateveritwas that attacked us.
Knowledge should be a non-action. As an example if a 1965 mustang drove by my house and I can immediately tell you how fast it can, the size of the tires and so on that is how knowledge checks are supposed to work. If I have to go read book then it is more like a "research check". Knowledge checks represent what you know right now, not what you can find out.
With the class ability they do become charisma based checks so by the rules I would say the answer is yes.Rules do not define "ability-based checks"....
It should be any check based on an ability.
checkA method of determining the result when a character attempts an action (other than an attack or a saving throw) that has a chance of failure. Checks are based on a relevant character ability, skill, or other characteristic. Most checks are either ability checks or skill checks, though special types such as turning checks, caster level checks, dispel checks, and initiative checks also exist. The specific name of the check usually corresponds to the skill or ability used. To make a check, roll 1d20 and add any relevant modifiers. (Higher results are always better.) If this check result equals or exceeds the Difficulty Class number assigned by the DM (or the opponent's check, if the action is opposed), the check succeeds.
This is part of the issue with porting over 3.5 words without bring the definitions over.
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Rules do not define "ability-based checks" so the matter cannot be decided on the RAW level. This is one of the things which GMs have to decide on their own. My own interpretation is that each check might be "based" only on a single ability inherent to the check itself and any other ability used (due to class/racial/other feature or ability) as additional bonus or as replacment for the value of base ability does not change the "ability descriptor" of the check.
Example: when Paladin uses Smite Evil he adds his Charisma bonus to attack rolls but acciording to my interpretation it does not turn such attack roll into Charisma based check. It remains Strength-based check (or Dexterity-based if used with ranged attack).
While I agree with this interpretation, my own addition would be that, in cases where the modifier for one ability actually replaces the modifier for another, then you could argue that the "ability descriptor" has changed.
In your example above, the Charisma modifier is added to the attack bonus when using Smite Evil. It doesn't replace the Strength modifier to the attack bonus. Therefore, it's still a Strength-based roll.
In the case of Lore Keeper, the Int modifier goes away and is replaced by Cha, so I would rule that, for the Oracle character in question, all Knowledge checks are now Charisma-based.
Example: when Paladin uses Smite Evil he adds his Charisma bonus to attack rolls but acciording to my interpretation it does not turn such attack roll into Charisma based check. It remains Strength-based check (or Dexterity-based if used with ranged attack).
That is a bad example because it does not fit the discussion at hand. The paladin charisma modifier to hit says it "adds to", while the oracle ability replaces. Allowing a second modifier to add to any roll is not the same as replacing the original modifier.
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That is a bad example because it does not fit the discussion at hand. The paladin charisma modifier to hit says it "adds to", while the oracle ability replaces. Allowing a second modifier to add to any roll is not the same as replacing the original modifier.
Example: when Paladin uses Smite Evil he adds his Charisma bonus to attack rolls but acciording to my interpretation it does not turn such attack roll into Charisma based check. It remains Strength-based check (or Dexterity-based if used with ranged attack).
I agree with wraithstrike. Also, upon reading Drejk's post more carefully, I need to change my previous post to state that I disagree. I must have skimmed over the specific mention of "replacement for the value of the base ability".
As I said, in my interpretation, if you replace the source of the bonus, it becomes a check based on the new source ability.
That is a bad example because it does not fit the discussion at hand. The paladin charisma modifier to hit says it "adds to", while the oracle ability replaces. Allowing a second modifier to add to any roll is not the same as replacing the original modifier.
Example: when Paladin uses Smite Evil he adds his Charisma bonus to attack rolls but acciording to my interpretation it does not turn such attack roll into Charisma based check. It remains Strength-based check (or Dexterity-based if used with ranged attack).I agree with wraithstrike. Also, upon reading Drejk's post more carefully, I need to change my previous post to state that I disagree. I must have skimmed over the specific mention of "replacement for the value of the base ability".
As I said, in my interpretation, if you replace the source of the bonus, it becomes a check based on the new source ability.
I missed it the first time I read his post too. I did not see it until I read your response.
I took Cosmopolitan at 3rd level to give him Linguistics and Use Magic Device as class skills. He has a great UMD score now, so that will open up use of arcane spells too via wands and scrolls.
What I've noticed is that he is very hungry for skill points. He is human so that helps, and Int is his second best stat, and for his first 3 levels he took the additional skill point as his favored class bonus, so he was getting 8 a level. And that’s not enough! At 4th and from now on he'll obviously be taking the human oracle favored class bonus of additional spells known...that’s just too great to pass up, especially for a spontaneous caster and the only caster in the party. But he has...
Try asking your GM/DM for a Skill point feat that is equal to toughness... My wife plays Lore Oracle and is planning to take Extra Trait feat to do close to same thing. Making UMD and Perception class skill and give them both a +1.
That is a bad example because it does not fit the discussion at hand. The paladin charisma modifier to hit says it "adds to", while the oracle ability replaces. Allowing a second modifier to add to any roll is not the same as replacing the original modifier.
Smite evil example was actually my response to your post which landed just after my post about Circlet Of Persuasion not applying to Paladin's Divine Grace and stating that "With the class ability they do become charisma based checks so by the rules I would say the answer is yes."
Which, after checking the timing of your post after mine (4 minutes later) was probably just my too hasty interpretation that your post referred to mine and not the previous posts.In case of replacing ability modifier with another I say that it is mostly GM's call. There are instances in which I would allow changing "ability descrptor" and instances in which I would not.
(Maybe I should trademark "ability descriptor"? :P )
BTW: I have just noticed something strange on prd - Oracle of Lore adds Spellcraft to its class skills... Despite all Oracles having Spellcraft on their list of class skills. Can someone with APG at hand check it?
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BTW: I have just noticed something strange on prd - Oracle of Lore adds Spellcraft to its class skills... Despite all Oracles having Spellcraft on their list of class skills. Can someone with APG at hand check it?
In the book it says 'Appraise, Spellcraft and all Knowledge skills.' So yeah, Spellcraft is redundant there, since all Oracles have it as a class skill.
That is a bad example because it does not fit the discussion at hand. The paladin charisma modifier to hit says it "adds to", while the oracle ability replaces. Allowing a second modifier to add to any roll is not the same as replacing the original modifier.Smite evil example was actually my response to your post which landed just after my post about Circlet Of Persuasion not applying to Paladin's Divine Grace and stating that "With the class ability they do become charisma based checks so by the rules I would say the answer is yes."
Which, after checking the timing of your post after mine (4 minutes later) was probably just my too hasty interpretation that your post referred to mine and not the previous posts.In case of replacing ability modifier with another I say that it is mostly GM's call. There are instances in which I would allow changing "ability descrptor" and instances in which I would not.
(Maybe I should trademark "ability descriptor"? :P )BTW: I have just noticed something strange on prd - Oracle of Lore adds Spellcraft to its class skills... Despite all Oracles having Spellcraft on their list of class skills. Can someone with APG at hand check it?
There is another one that gives the same skills. It might be the lore one also.
edit:What I mean is the oracle given skills that it already has.
edit 2: What becomes charisma based checks with what class ability. The paladin "adds to" a check, but it does not replace anything with charisma. If you think it replaces something which is the case with the oracles ability we need a quote.
Glad to see all the discussion on this thread.
So it seems that the consensus is, as far as the original question at least, that since Lorekeeper 'replaces' Int for Cha on knowledge checks, then knowledge checks become a Cha check for the Oracle with Lorekeeper. And thus a circlet of persuasion will boost knowledge checks for said Oracle.
Try asking your GM/DM for a Skill point feat that is equal to toughness... My wife plays Lore Oracle and is planning to take Extra Trait feat to do close to same thing. Making UMD and Perception class skill and give them both a +1.
Yeah that would be a nice feat for him to have. There was the one in 3.5 that gave 5 free skill points for a feat. But there are a number of feats I want anyways, and some feats can give a better payoff than 5 skill points.
For example, your wife's idea to take Additional Traits should pay off more then 5 skill points. (I had considered this too instead of Cosmopolitan, and I still might take it for a couple other skills. At the time I was still fleshing out his personality, and didn't want to tie myself down due to trait choices. He was definitely a city boy though.). If using Additional traits to add two skills as class skills that aren't already class skills, thats a net of a +6 boost to skills. And those often give a +1 boost to one to two skills two. So with the right traits you could be looking at a +8 or more boost to skills from Additional Traits.
The skill boosting feats can give a nice boost too. The +2/+2 feats can potentially give a total of +4/+4 for a net of +8. And skill focus can give a net of +6. The Breadth of Experience feat for elves, dwarves, and gnomes can give a +2 to all knowledge and profession skills; that can be a massive skill boost for certain character types. Dilettante can have a similar effect for certain characters too. (Thats a feat I'm also considering.)
In my case, taking Lorekeeper via Extra Revelation would result in an immediate +6 boost to every knowledge skill. (Assuming the Circlet of Persuasion applies.) So considering there are 10 knowledge skills, thats a net gain of +60 for one feat! And hopefully I can get a headband of Cha before too long, giving me even more of a boost.
(Just to be clear, I'm not interested in the knowledge skills as a way of overcoming monsters by knowing there weaknesses and what nots. Its more about being able to solve problems and discover information for purposes of the campaign. And yeah, focused trance is great, but can be somewhat risky in combat; I could get stuck in a trance for the whole combat instead of casting spells or even swinging a mace.
I was able to go in a trance and get a 42 on a Knowledge (nobility) check to determine that it would be poor etiquette to arrive late at the mayor's party!)
Just for reference, the other feats I'm looking at for this character are Additional Traits, Extend Spell, Silent Spell, Persistent Spell, Improved Counterspell, and Heighten Spell. Silent Spell so he can cast silence and still cast spells. Extend spell will have lots of good uses in later levels, such as Freedom of Movement and Airwalk. Heighten or Persistant so as to make use of those higher level spell slots. And Improved Counterspell because it might be good to be able to shut down an enemy spellcaster while my martial friends do their thing; thats a tactic I haven't tried yet but I could see it being useful with this melee oriented party.
I have to say, this is at least the 3rd time I have seen circlet of persuasion questions on these boards recently. Each time it has resulted in confusion, debate, and disagreement on what does and does not qualify. I hope it gets cleared up.
Personally, I think it should only add to skill checks for the skills normally associated with charisma and the very rare straight charisma check (such as competeing mental spells effects or plannar binding).
That all sounds good, but FWIW I'd strongly recommend Reach Spell over most of the other metamagics. Its extremely versatile and potent for a spontaneous caster.
yeah that is a great one. very versatile. And would allow healing at range too. I don't have a lot of spells that it would work with at the moment, but I will after a few levels, so it would make a good 7th or 9th lvl choice.
I came into this thread expecting to be able to easily answer the question. Then as I read the discussion I became floored by how truly complex the puzzle actually is to solve.
As with many others, I would ask the GM for a ruling.
My personal interpretation is that any d20 roll that is primarily based on Charisma will benefit. It DOES apply to Charisma checks, Charisma-based skill checks, and even to a sorcerer's concentration checks. It does NOT apply to an oracle's knowledge checks (class ability or no) or a paladin's saving throws.
I came into this thread expecting to be able to easily answer the question. Then as I read the discussion I became floored by how truly complex the puzzle actually is to solve.
As with many others, I would ask the GM for a ruling.
My personal interpretation is that any d20 roll that is primarily based on Charisma will benefit. It DOES apply to Charisma checks, Charisma-based skill checks, and even to a sorcerer's concentration checks. It does NOT apply to an oracle's knowledge checks (class ability or no) or a paladin's saving throws.
It does apply to the knowledge checks.
If they are based on charisma then they are charisma based.It only takes one question. What single attribute is the primary modifier for the check. In this case it is charisma. There is no denying that charisma determines the result. There is also no denying that skills are ability checks. Well what ability are these skills based on---charisma.
That makes them charisma based.
I know I said the same thing several times.
I came into this thread expecting to be able to easily answer the question. Then as I read the discussion I became floored by how truly complex the puzzle actually is to solve.
As with many others, I would ask the GM for a ruling.
My personal interpretation is that any d20 roll that is primarily based on Charisma will benefit. It DOES apply to Charisma checks, Charisma-based skill checks, and even to a sorcerer's concentration checks. It does NOT apply to an oracle's knowledge checks (class ability or no) or a paladin's saving throws.
It does apply to the knowledge checks.
If they are based on charisma then they are charisma based.
It only takes one question. What single attribute is the primary modifier for the check. In this case it is charisma. There is no denying that charisma determines the result. There is also no denying that skills are ability checks. Well what ability are these skills based on---charisma.
That makes them charisma based.I know I said the same thing several times.
And if my GM ruled thusly I may well be one of the first to roll up a lore oracle. If I'm the GM, however, I like to think that the original base scores are what matters. Knowledge checks are Intelligence checks. An ability that switches out the ability score doesn't change it from being an intelligence check (at least as far as things like circlets of persuasion are concerned). Otherwise, you might have feats and other items that give bonuses to Intelligence checks which would no longer function when you picked the lore class feature. That changes the class feature from a boon to a hindrance.
Ruling as you do also opens up potential abuse like oracles with the Sidestep Secret never losing their Cha to AC because the rules say you loose your Dex to AC, not Cha. It uses the same kind of logic.
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And if my GM ruled thusly I may well be one of the first to roll up a lore oracle. If I'm the GM, however, I like to think that the original base scores are what matters. Knowledge checks are Intelligence checks. An ability that switches out the ability score doesn't change it from being an intelligence check (at least as far as things like circlets of persuasion are concerned). Otherwise, you might have feats and other items that give bonuses to Intelligence checks which would no longer function when you picked the lore class feature. That changes the class feature from a boon to a hindrance.
Ruling as you do also opens up potential abuse like oracles with the Sidestep Secret never losing their Cha to AC because the rules say you loose your Dex to AC, not Cha. It uses the same kind of logic.
Actually, on first blush, that's how I'd rule for Sidestep Secret. Our Oracle has the haunted curse and our GM rules that it's the ghost/haunt/whatever that actually shoves her out of danger at the last minute. It's a flavor thing, but regardless, she's relying on something other than her Dexterity to respond to threats and move out of the way.
I can see how that might cause problems later on, which is why I just e-mailed our group about this discussion thread. But from a character-building standpoint, it just makes sense.
Cinematically, I can see the Oracle in the midst of a fight, unaware of the sneaky enemy Rogue as he approaches her from behind. Just as he is about to strike, she jolts to the side as though someone pushed her, causing the Rogue's attack to miss. That just seems fun to me.
Actually, on first blush, that's how I'd rule for Sidestep Secret. Our Oracle has the haunted curse and our GM rules that it's the ghost/haunt/whatever that actually shoves her out of danger at the last minute. It's a flavor thing, but regardless, she's relying on something other than her Dexterity to respond to threats and move out of the way.
I can see how that might cause problems later on, which is why I just e-mailed our group about this discussion thread. But from a character-building standpoint, it just makes sense.
Cinematically, I can see the Oracle in the midst of a fight, unaware of the sneaky enemy Rogue as he approaches her from behind. Just as he is about to strike, she jolts to the side as though someone pushed her, causing the Rogue's attack to miss. That just seems fun to me.
Just goes to show that one roleplayer's broken mechanic is another roleplayer's normal gameplay. It's a shame people can be so intolerant at times.
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Just goes to show that one roleplayer's broken mechanic is another roleplayer's normal gameplay. It's a shame people can be so intolerant at times.Actually, on first blush, that's how I'd rule for Sidestep Secret. Our Oracle has the haunted curse and our GM rules that it's the ghost/haunt/whatever that actually shoves her out of danger at the last minute. It's a flavor thing, but regardless, she's relying on something other than her Dexterity to respond to threats and move out of the way.
I can see how that might cause problems later on, which is why I just e-mailed our group about this discussion thread. But from a character-building standpoint, it just makes sense.
Cinematically, I can see the Oracle in the midst of a fight, unaware of the sneaky enemy Rogue as he approaches her from behind. Just as he is about to strike, she jolts to the side as though someone pushed her, causing the Rogue's attack to miss. That just seems fun to me.
I agree. For some people, being "right" is everything. I'm not necessarily a moral relativist, but I do recognize that there doesn't always HAVE to be a "right" answer.
I think this really does fall into the realm of GM fiat (modified by group dynamic). :)
Personally, I've enjoyed this discussion. When the discourse is friendly, it's neat to actually learn things. There are so many nuances to the rules.
I came into this thread expecting to be able to easily answer the question. Then as I read the discussion I became floored by how truly complex the puzzle actually is to solve.
As with many others, I would ask the GM for a ruling.
My personal interpretation is that any d20 roll that is primarily based on Charisma will benefit. It DOES apply to Charisma checks, Charisma-based skill checks, and even to a sorcerer's concentration checks. It does NOT apply to an oracle's knowledge checks (class ability or no) or a paladin's saving throws.
It does apply to the knowledge checks.
If they are based on charisma then they are charisma based.
It only takes one question. What single attribute is the primary modifier for the check. In this case it is charisma. There is no denying that charisma determines the result. There is also no denying that skills are ability checks. Well what ability are these skills based on---charisma.
That makes them charisma based.I know I said the same thing several times.
And if my GM ruled thusly I may well be one of the first to roll up a lore oracle. If I'm the GM, however, I like to think that the original base scores are what matters. Knowledge checks are Intelligence checks. An ability that switches out the ability score doesn't change it from being an intelligence check (at least as far as things like circlets of persuasion are concerned). Otherwise, you might have feats and other items that give bonuses to Intelligence checks which would no longer function when you picked the lore class feature. That changes the class feature from a boon to a hindrance.
Ruling as you do also opens up potential abuse like oracles with the Sidestep Secret never losing their Cha to AC because the rules say you loose your Dex to AC, not Cha. It uses the same kind of logic.
The circlet says charisma based checks, not "charisma bases before they were changed" so there is not way to say the circlet is concerned with only the original attribute modifier.
If an item gives a bonus to an intelligence check then it would not affect the oracle's knowledge skills. Nobody forced him to take that mystery. The good thing is he does not have to double down on mental stats. The bad thing is previous items may not benefit him anymore. You have to take the good with the bad.
As for the charisma to dex issue:
I think the cha to AC should be rewritten to operate under the same rules as dex to AC. I FAQ'd it in another thread a while ago. Right now the oracle can wear full plate(assuming he takes the heavy armor prof. feat), and get his entire charisma bonus also, which is not fair, IMHO.
And if my GM ruled thusly I may well be one of the first to roll up a lore oracle. If I'm the GM, however, I like to think that the original base scores are what matters. Knowledge checks are Intelligence checks. An ability that switches out the ability score doesn't change it from being an intelligence check (at least as far as things like circlets of persuasion are concerned). Otherwise, you might have feats and other items that give bonuses to Intelligence checks which would no longer function when you picked the lore class feature. That changes the class feature from a boon to a hindrance.
Ruling as you do also opens up potential abuse like oracles with the Sidestep Secret never losing their Cha to AC because the rules say you loose your Dex to AC, not Cha. It uses the same kind of logic.
Actually, on first blush, that's how I'd rule for Sidestep Secret. Our Oracle has the haunted curse and our GM rules that it's the ghost/haunt/whatever that actually shoves her out of danger at the last minute. It's a flavor thing, but regardless, she's relying on something other than her Dexterity to respond to threats and move out of the way.
I can see how that might cause problems later on, which is why I just e-mailed our group about this discussion thread. But from a character-building standpoint, it just makes sense.
Cinematically, I can see the Oracle in the midst of a fight, unaware of the sneaky enemy Rogue as he approaches her from behind. Just as he is about to strike, she jolts to the side as though someone pushed her, causing the Rogue's attack to miss. That just seems fun to me.
I like that, but I don't like the unlimited charisma issue. I guess I can add to that for my group by saying heavier armor makes the character harder to push out of the way.
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I don't have the APG in front of me, but in reference to armor, the PRD says that the armor's max DEX bonus applies to the Oracle's Cha bonus, instead.
I don't have the APG in front of me, but in reference to armor, the PRD says that the armor's max DEX bonus applies to the Oracle's Cha bonus, instead.
Which didn't used to be true during the playtest. Thank goodness they fixed it. Still, it looks like they left out the bit about losing the bonus when you are unable to react.
Or perhaps, as others have stated, it was deliberately excluded as the oracle is no longer dodging in the traditional sense?
I don't have the APG in front of me, but in reference to armor, the PRD says that the armor's max DEX bonus applies to the Oracle's Cha bonus, instead.Which didn't used to be true during the playtest. Thank goodness they fixed it. Still, it looks like they left out the bit about losing the bonus when you are unable to react.
Or perhaps, as others have stated, it was deliberately excluded as the oracle is no longer dodging in the traditional sense?
Nature's Whispers (Ex): You have become so attuned to the whispers of the natural world, from the croaking of frogs to the groaning of great boulders, that your surroundings constantly keep you preternaturally aware of danger. You may add your Charisma modifier, instead of your Dexterity modifier, to your Armor Class. Any condition that would cause you to lose your Dexterity modifier to your Armor Class instead causes you to lose your Charisma modifier to your Armor Class.
Nope they still don't have a limit on it. I was hoping they had changed it, and I just had not noticed. You do lose the bonus when you normally denied dex such as being flat-footed since you lose the charisma modifier anytime you would lose the dex modifier.
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It's interesting that they would specfically mention losing the Charisma bonus in Nature's Whispers, but not in Sidestep Secret. I can see now why you would rule the way you did, RD. The abilities seem to be fairly similar, but the rules text for each one is quite different.
The question is, if they don't specifically mention the loss of Charisma bonus in Sidestep Secret, do you consider that an oversight by the designers or an intentional difference between the two abilities?
It's interesting that they would specfically mention losing the Charisma bonus in Nature's Whispers, but not in Sidestep Secret. I can see now why you would rule the way you did, RD. The abilities seem to be fairly similar, but the rules text for each one is quite different.
The question is, if they don't specifically mention the loss of Charisma bonus in Sidestep Secret, do you consider that an oversight by the designers or an intentional difference between the two abilities?
I don't rightly know.
Hopefully it will get clarified at some point.
It's interesting that they would specfically mention losing the Charisma bonus in Nature's Whispers, but not in Sidestep Secret. I can see now why you would rule the way you did, RD. The abilities seem to be fairly similar, but the rules text for each one is quite different.
The question is, if they don't specifically mention the loss of Charisma bonus in Sidestep Secret, do you consider that an oversight by the designers or an intentional difference between the two abilities?
I did not even realize there were two abilities that were so similar. The one with the restriction adds to reflex saves also, while the other does not so I guess that is the tradeoff.