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By default, an Initiative check is a Dexterity check. The feat "Noble Scion: Scion of War" says that you can use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier: that is, an Initiative check becomes a Charisma check.
In this case, every feat that improves Charisma checks (such as "Lost Legacy") improves Inititative checks too... is this correct?
From the SRD "Scion of War: You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier."
Noble scion does not make your initiative check a charisma check, it allows you to apply your charisma modifier instead of your dex modifier to your initiative check. A circlet of persuasion does not alter your initiative, nor does any other thing that affects your charisma check. A thing has to affect your charisma modifier in order to alter your initiative check with use of the noble scion feat.
Herolab is a great product for many reasons, one of which is vetting builds. Slap a circlet of persuasion on your character with the feat you want to use and see if Herolab alters your initiative. It doesn't.
Herolab isn't a rules source...
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Also from the SRD for Circlet of Persuasion:
"This delicately engraved silver headband grants its wearer a +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks."
Is it cheesy? Yes. But it works. I guess Lost Legacy also works...but why bother with it? Get +4 from Improved initiative. Or if you already have it, take skill focus: any Knowledge and get Eldritch Heritage: Arcane and pick up a greensting scorpion for +4.
Herolab is a program that uses all the Pathfinder rules and they are very up-to-date on reporting and fixing bugs. Using Herolab to vet builds is no different than using a spreadsheet to test existing material. The only difference is that I didn't write the spreadsheet myself.
"Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks."
"Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity."
Again, Lore Keeper and Sidestep Secret both say that you may use your Charisma modifier in place of your Intelligence or Dexterity modifier. Neither of them say that the check becomes charisma-based. A Circlet of Persuasion does not alter your Charisma modifier. +3 to your Charisma modifier is the equivalent of an item that grants +6 to your Charisma stat, making a Circlet or Persuasion doing what you claim it can about 31500gp cheaper than it ought to be.
You are trying to take advantage of an obvious loophole that has been clarified numerous times throughout the years since 3.0 was released and people first began attempting precisely this example of rules-cheese.
#1 Doesn't the modifier used determine the check made? IE, isn't an ability check a check using that abilities modifier?
#2 No matter how good a job Herolab does, it's isn't a rules source and means less than nothing in a rules question.
I'm not saying this works or not, just that we'll need something other than Herolab as proof. A quote from a book or the PRD would work nicely as proof.
Herolab is a program that uses all the Pathfinder rules and they are very up-to-date on reporting and fixing bugs. Using Herolab to vet builds is no different than using a spreadsheet to test existing material. The only difference is that I didn't write the spreadsheet myself.
"Lore Keeper (Ex): Instead of encyclopedic knowledge, you learn most of your information through tales, songs, and poems. You may use your Charisma modifier instead of your Intelligence modifier on all Knowledge checks."
"Sidestep Secret (Su): Your innate understanding of the universe has granted you preternatural reflexes and the uncanny ability to step out of danger at the very last second. Add your Charisma modifier (instead of your Dexterity modifier) to your Armor Class and all Reflex saving throws. Your armor's maximum Dexterity bonus applies to your Charisma instead of your Dexterity."
Again, Lore Keeper and Sidestep Secret both say that you may use your Charisma modifier in place of your Intelligence or Dexterity modifier. Neither of them say that the check becomes charisma-based. A Circlet of Persuasion does not alter your Charisma modifier. +3 to your Charisma modifier is the equivalent of an item that grants +6 to your Charisma stat, making a Circlet or Persuasion doing what you claim it can about 31500gp cheaper than it ought to be.
You are trying to take advantage of an obvious loophole that has been clarified numerous times throughout the years since 3.0 was released and people first began attempting precisely this example of rules-cheese.
Actually this works. An ability check is any check that you use your ability score for that is not a save, skill, or attack. Since you now use your Charisma ability score, rolling imitative is now a CHA ability check. Circlet of Persuasion is not cheaper then it should be since it does not normally increase your Initiative. You have to pay a feat cost in order to get this benefit.
Hero Lab is not a rules source. It sure as Hades is evidence as how a rule should work. If nothing else, it is a solid interpretation that is backed by communication between the Paizo staff and the Lone Wolf Development staff.
Again, not a source, but evidence. Much more evidence than the opinions of the players that visit this board.
I agree with Born of Fire, that you will have to change the modifier of your Charisma to affect your Initiative bonus.
As to evidence from the D20pfsrd
"Bonus (Competence)
A competence bonus (or penalty) affects a character's performance of a particular task, as in the case of the bardic ability to inspire competence. Such a bonus may apply on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply. It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks. Multiple competence bonuses don't stack; only the highest bonus applies."
I think it is clear that the Circlet of Persuasion (competence bonus) will not affect Initiative checks.
Hero Lab is not a rules source. It sure as Hades is evidence as how a rule should work. If nothing else, it is a solid interpretation that is backed by communication between the Paizo staff and the Lone Wolf Development staff.
Again, not a source, but evidence. Much more evidence than the opinions of the players that visit this board.
Even posts from staff members that aren't FAQ's aren't official and can't be used as a source. A second hand interpretation from a non-source is pretty far away from RAW.
As you'll note, I'm not saying we should go off of the "opinions of the players that visit this board". Real actual quotes from the books/PRD are what's needed. Additionally D20pfsrd shouldn't be used a a source either. Again, they do a good job but errors/mistakes crop up all the time mostly with stealth errata/FAQ's. Use the Rules Archive (PRD) in the column left of here. On a quick look through the PRD I didn't find the same text. All I've found is that it works on 'Attacks, checks, saves' from the "Table: Bonus Type and Effects".
Hero Lab is not a rules source. It sure as Hades is evidence as how a rule should work. If nothing else, it is a solid interpretation that is backed by communication between the Paizo staff and the Lone Wolf Development staff.
Again, not a source, but evidence. Much more evidence than the opinions of the players that visit this board.
I agree with Born of Fire, that you will have to change the modifier of your Charisma to affect your Initiative bonus.
As to evidence from the D20pfsrd
"Bonus (Competence)
A competence bonus (or penalty) affects a character's performance of a particular task, as in the case of the bardic ability to inspire competence. Such a bonus may apply on attack rolls, saving throws, skill checks, caster level checks, or any other checks to which a bonus relating to level or skill ranks would normally apply. It does not apply on ability checks, damage rolls, initiative checks, or other rolls that aren't related to a character's level or skill ranks. Multiple competence bonuses don't stack; only the highest bonus applies."
I think it is clear that the Circlet of Persuasion (competence bonus) will not affect Initiative checks.
Specific beats general. Unless you intend to argue that Bards can't give competence bonuses on damage rolls (considering they totally do). And Circlet is pretty specific about adding to Charisma based checks.
This delicately engraved silver headband grants its wearer a +3 competence bonus on Charisma-based checks. Charisma-based checks are any checks where
Charisma is the base modifier. Since Scion of War changes Initiative checks to a Charisma based check it should make the circlet effect it.
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone): This stone grants a +1 competence bonus on initiative checks. Price: 500 gp. Sure looks like you can get a competence bonus to initiative.
I think the quote that Komoda had is from 3.5 and is snuck in to D20pfsrd. That WAS how it read in that edition but I can't seem to find the same thing for pathfinder.
EDIT: James Jacobs: "We SHOULD have included a list of the bonus types in the game book. It got left out, and that's unfortunate."
Cracked Dusty Rose Prism (Ioun Stone): This stone grants a +1 competence bonus on initiative checks. Price: 500 gp. Sure looks like you can get a competence bonus to initiative.
I think the quote that Komoda had is from 3.5 and is snuck in to D20pfsrd. That WAS how it read in that edition but I can't seem to find the same thing for pathfinder.
Good find!
Keep in mind that a Charisma-based check isn't the same as a Charisma check. That doesn't rule out Circlet of Persuasion, though.
If it doesn't then you have the situation where you have a dex check but use you cha modifiers Thomas Long 175.
"Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value." A check modified by my cha sure sounds like a cha check even if it doesn't spell that out IMO.
If you use your Charisma modifier in place of Dexterity, it becomes a Charisma check, because you are using your Charisma modifier. That's literally all you need for something to be a Charisma based check. The fact that it is normally a Dexterity ability check is meaningless here, since that is not the stat you are using.
Edit: Ninja'd by graystone.
Actually, I'd like that quote "directly out of the core rule book" because I couldn't find one. Please post the exact rule that you are referencing please. All I find is generic check info with no direct mention of ability checks.
Please describe a Charisma based check. I's say it's a check modified by my Charisma first before other modifiers. Please let me know how to describe a Charisma check the uses Strength modifiers and still call it Charisma...
Does it state that it becomes a charisma check? No?
Then the clause, directly out of the core rule book, that it is a dexterity check still applies. There is nothing to overrule it, nothing to say that it doesn't. This allows you to swap modifiers. Nothing more.
Unless you have something that actually says it becomes a different type of check then I'm afraid the core rule book directly disagrees with you. It is still a dex check until the game says otherwise.
Or if you prefer a more general argument, things in this game only give you as much as they say they give you. Polymorph spells don't give you the creatures powers unless they say they do, reduce person still only modifies a halflings stats as much as a humans even though the penalties and bonuses between tiny and small are different from small to medium. Etc.
This is a game that spells out what you can do, not what you cant do. You go by the letter of the existing law unless something else says that you can do otherwise.
And the rules say you use Charisma for initiative, which makes it a Charisma ability check. The rules also say that Circlet gives +3 competence bonus on Charisma based checks. In the case of Noble Scion, that means imitative.
The book says that an ability check is check modified by a certain ability.
Check: A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
In this case charisma is modifying the initiative check. If the value modifying it is charisma, then it is a charisma based check.
Yeah, that's all I was finding wraithstrike, and that doesn't seem to be saying what Thomas Long 175 said so I'm curious if he's found something else.
If you use your Charisma modifier in place of Dexterity, it becomes a Charisma check, because you are using your Charisma modifier. That's literally all you need for something to be a Charisma based check. The fact that it is normally a Dexterity ability check is meaningless here, since that is not the stat you are using.
Edit: Ninja'd by graystone.
Careful. You're close to equating "Charisma check" with "Charisma-based check". It's a very important distinction. Initative is a Dex (or Cha) check, not a Dex (or Cha)-based check. That's in your favor in this discussion. Dex-based is a more general term, while a Dex check is a specific type of Dex-based check.
Herolab is A source, even if it is not a PRIMARY source. It can't be taken as absolute, but it can be used as evidence.
However, I think that Graystone is correct in the problem with the sources and that the RAW is now messed up. It appears the CR and PRD left out an important part of the rules and left in the Circlet of Persuasion which breaks all math if the part about Competence Bonus limits is ignored.
With this item in game, as RAW and no limits, it does not follow the price requirements of bonus to ability score squared, times 2,000 gp. That would make it 36,000 gp. (+6 Chr for +3 Chr Mod) That would make the cost 12.5% of its clearly established value.
Clearly something is amiss. AS GM, I would keep the limits of the Competence bonuses as I posted before, which clearly fit the RAI of the item, considering those rules were in effect during the creation of the item. It is my belief that they were overlooked upon porting to Pathfinder. But as far Pathfinder RAW, I must concede that there is no indication of such.
On another note, if you are using your Charisma rather than Dexterity, it is now a Charisma-based check for you. Anything that affects your Charisma score/checks also affects your newly acquired Charisma-based ability. However, as stated, Competence Bonuses clearly previously stated that they do not affect Initiative checks and I would still follow that.
So then what? It is a dexterity check that uses charisma instead? So, you are saying that anything that affects his dexterity based checks would add to his Initiative that now uses his Charisma bonus?
Sorry, but it is now a charisma based check for that character. All things that affect Charisma would now affect the Initiative checks.
The same as using Weapon Finesse does not make an attack with a sword a ranged attack, but now uses all Dexterity based abilities when defining the attack bonus.
Herolab is A source, even if it is not a PRIMARY source. It can't be taken as absolute, but it can be used as evidence.
However, I think that Graystone is correct in the problem with the sources and that the RAW is now messed up. It appears the CR and PRD left out an important part of the rules and left in the Circlet of Persuasion which breaks all math if the part about Competence Bonus limits is ignored.
With this item in game, as RAW and no limits, it does not follow the price requirements of bonus to ability score squared, times 2,000 gp. That would make it 36,000 gp. (+6 Chr for +3 Chr Mod) That would make the cost 12.5% of its clearly established value.
Clearly something is amiss. AS GM, I would keep the limits of the Competence bonuses as I posted before, which clearly fit the RAI of the item, considering those rules were in effect during the creation of the item. It is my belief that they were overlooked upon porting to Pathfinder. But as far Pathfinder RAW, I must concede that there is no indication of such.
On another note, if you are using your Charisma rather than Dexterity, it is now a Charisma-based check for you. Anything that affects your Charisma score/checks also affects your newly acquired Charisma-based ability. However, as stated, Competence Bonuses clearly previously stated that they do not affect Initiative checks and I would still follow that.
The circlet only applies in a limited area. That is why it is so cheap. It does not boost saves to spells and special attacks. You don't get more spells per day. Undead cant use it to get more hit points. Paladins can't use it to add to their attack rolls when smiting. Cleric dont get additional channel energy checks and so on.
Initiative Checks
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
The core rule book specifically states the type of check it is. It is a dexterity check, and is outline as such.
Scion of War: You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.Noble scion specifically calls out using your charisma modifier instead of dexterity modifier. Nowhere in the feat does it contradict or change the statement posted in core that this is a dexterity check. It even goes out of its way to specifically call it out using charisma modifier when it would have been shorter to say Initiative becomes a charisma check.
Unless an ability specifically says it does something, it doesn't do that. It's not giving you permission to change the check type, so you aren't changing the posted wording that it is this type of check.
Initiative is not a dex check because of that statement in initiative checks. It is dex check because it uses dex. That section is just restating the obvious. However since the ability changes the modifier to charisma that means charisma is the ruling modifier. You cant really say it is a dex check if the dex has no affect because RAW says the the value that affects it is what determines the check.
So tell me how is it a dex check if dex no longer applies?
...Initiative is not a dex check because of that statement in initiative checks. It is dex check because it uses dex. That section is justInitiative Checks
At the start of a battle, each combatant makes an initiative check. An initiative check is a Dexterity check. Each character applies his or her Dexterity modifier to the roll, as well as other modifiers from feats, spells, and other effects. Characters act in order, counting down from the highest result to the lowest. In every round that follows, the characters act in the same order (unless a character takes an action that results in his or her initiative changing; see Special Initiative Actions).
If two or more combatants have the same initiative check result, the combatants who are tied act in order of total initiative modifier (highest first). If there is still a tie, the tied characters should roll to determine which one of them goes before the other.
The core rule book specifically states the type of check it is. It is a dexterity check, and is outline as such.
Scion of War: You use your Charisma modifier to adjust Initiative checks instead of your Dexterity modifier.Noble scion specifically calls out using your charisma modifier instead of dexterity modifier. Nowhere in the feat does it contradict or change the statement posted in core that this is a dexterity check. It even goes out of its way to specifically call it out using charisma modifier when it would have been shorter to say Initiative becomes a charisma check.
Unless an ability specifically says it does something, it doesn't do that. It's not giving you permission to change the check type, so you aren't changing the posted wording that it is this type of check.
The book only states it's a Dexterity check, because it uses Dexterity. That's general. Not specific.
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I think this could use an FAQ or dev post to help clear up confusion. Not just about this feat/item combo, but with other things too. For instance, does a Lore Warden with Pragmatic Activator add UMD to his class skills, does an inquisitor with the Conversion Inquisition or Wizard with Clever Wordplay still get the +3 on the skill they are using, etc. This has come up before and will probably come up again. A question along the lines of "When does a check count as being "Ability Score"-based?" might be worth asking.
Anzyr, let it go. Some people have a hard time separating "reminders" from what is its own rule.
I dont see how it is hard to understand that init is dex check without that statement.
Nor do I see how someone can not see that "An initiative check is a Dexterity check" is not the same as "An initiative check is a Dexterity check, even dex is later modified by another ability instead".
The two are not even remotely close, and at the same time, "A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value..., is ignored.
I guess dex is modifying the initiative, even when it is not. O.o
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I'm of the opinion that Noble Scion: Scion of War causes it to go from being a Dexterity check to being a Charisma-based check, which is a far cry from being a Charisma check. I've FAQed this because the issue could be made a little less obtuse.
It's not really obtuse. If a check uses a particular ability score, its that kind of check. Really could not be simpler.
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Obtuse may have not been the right word, but it does need some clarification, which was my point. Initiative is a Dexterity check. That, I believe, we can agree on, but again I believe that Scion of War causes it to become a Charisma-based check rather than a Charisma check. That's the issue where we disagree and thus it could be made a little clearer.
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Actually this works. An ability check is any check that you use your ability score for that is not a save, skill, or attack. Since you now use your Charisma ability score, rolling imitative is now a CHA ability check. Circlet of Persuasion is not cheaper then it should be since it does not normally increase your Initiative. You have to pay a feat cost in order to get this benefit.Actually not quite. Attack rolls, skills and saves are also checks which is why the circlet also adds to reflex saves with sidestep secret.
A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
A good example is Weapon Finesse, which allows you to use Dexterity in place of Strength on your melee attack roll. Does that then turn your attack roll from a Strength check to a Dexterity check or does it go from being a Strength-based check to a Dexterity-based check?
So does the circlet boost my attack roll when smiting as a paladin?Actually this works. An ability check is any check that you use your ability score for that is not a save, skill, or attack. Since you now use your Charisma ability score, rolling imitative is now a CHA ability check. Circlet of Persuasion is not cheaper then it should be since it does not normally increase your Initiative. You have to pay a feat cost in order to get this benefit.Actually not quite. Attack rolls, skills and saves are also checks which is why the circlet also adds to reflex saves with sidestep secret.
A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
Maybe?
It's hard to tell what exactly is a "Charisma-based check." For a moment I was thinking nah that wouldn't work with reflex saves but now that I think about it...
A Charisma based skill check isn't all that different statistically from a saving throw. You have a base saving throw/rank and then add the appropriate ability modifier. Likewise an attack roll goes off of your BAB, but I'm inclined to believe it doesn't work since it likely isn't just a charisma-based check. It's adding your strength or dex as well as your charisma so...
Maybe?
Hitting FAQ.
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A good example is Weapon Finesse, which allows you to use Dexterity in place of Strength on your melee attack roll. Does that then turn your attack roll from a Strength check to a Dexterity check or does it go from being a Strength-based check to a Dexterity-based check?Actually this works. An ability check is any check that you use your ability score for that is not a save, skill, or attack. Since you now use your Charisma ability score, rolling imitative is now a CHA ability check. Circlet of Persuasion is not cheaper then it should be since it does not normally increase your Initiative. You have to pay a feat cost in order to get this benefit.Actually not quite. Attack rolls, skills and saves are also checks which is why the circlet also adds to reflex saves with sidestep secret.
A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.
So, if I am using a finesseable weapon, have weapon finesse, and also have Fury's Fall from the Cheliax book, and am making a trip attack, do I get to add my Dex modifier once or twice to the trip CMB?
According to your question, it sounds like "Yes." as it would remain a strength-based attack roll, even though I substitute my Dex modifier for the Str modifier for combat maneuvers with a finessed weapon.
A good example is Weapon Finesse, which allows you to use Dexterity in place of Strength on your melee attack roll. Does that then turn your attack roll from a Strength check to a Dexterity check or does it go from being a Strength-based check to a Dexterity-based check?Actually this works. An ability check is any check that you use your ability score for that is not a save, skill, or attack. Since you now use your Charisma ability score, rolling imitative is now a CHA ability check. Circlet of Persuasion is not cheaper then it should be since it does not normally increase your Initiative. You have to pay a feat cost in order to get this benefit.Actually not quite. Attack rolls, skills and saves are also checks which is why the circlet also adds to reflex saves with sidestep secret.
A check is a d20 roll which may or may not be modified by another value. The most common types are attack rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws.So, if I am using a finesseable weapon, have weapon finesse, and also have Fury's Fall from the Cheliax book, and am making a trip attack, do I get to add my Dex modifier once or twice to the trip CMB?
According to your question, it sounds like "Yes." as it would remain a strength-based attack roll, even though I substitute my Dex modifier for the Str modifier for combat maneuvers with a finessed weapon.
Twice because one ability causes it to replace strength. The other one add dex as an additional bonus. I explained it better in another post, but that is basically what it amounts to.
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Komoda: two points.
#1 Herolabs isn't any kind of rules source, primary or secondary. 'Because it's in Herolab' means absolutely nothing in a RAW argument. D20pfsrd lists sources for their info so that at least can be use to point you to an actual rules source.
#2 to explain what happened, they dropped the list of bonuses from the core books. At the time, James said it was dropped and there where a lot of people asking for a list. D20pfsrd added the 3.5 list in anticipation of it being added back into the game. Many years latter it's still not in the rules.
On herolabs:
I use it to quickly build characters, but it is not a rules source. Many of them don't know the rules any better than the top members here. I find errors when I build characters, but that is still faster than me doing it from scratch so they get my money. However since the program has errors I prefer the player know how to build a character on their own so they can catch mistakes. That way I dont have to do it.
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Yes, that's how I use it to. It's awesome to make up a character but I check out rules elements in the books afterwards to make sure it didn't screw something up.
#1, If I had two options to look things up, Herolab or someone's notes, Herolab is going to win. That is what a source is. A source is a place where you look things up. A primary source is basically the un-reputed place where you look things up. HeroLab is officially licensed by Paizo. True, it makes mistakes, but so do the designers and developers on this forum. All of which are sources, but not primary sources, that is until their thoughts make it to the FAQ/Rulebook.
#2, Right, I got that. So do we now ignore the fact that the item gives a +3 bonus for 31,500 gp less than it should? Or do we apply the rule for 3.5 which limits those bonuses?
1. Herolab being licensed does not make them a source for rules interpretation. And I am sure you know what we mean by source. They make a lot of mistakes. I have found 11 or more mistakes when checking a build, so if a source is that unrealiable it does not get much credit as a valid source. I still like the product, and I use it as a shortcut to save time, but I still find errors.
As for comparing notes it would depend on whose notes they were. I would trust certain members here more than Herolab if I had to bet on an accurate build.
2. I have already explained that. That charisma bonus does not apply across the board so it is not deserving of the full price.<----short version.