How Are Clerics And Wizards Different?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Specifically, how would you sum up the differences between clerics and wizards in one sentence?

I'm starting a campaign and a couple of people there have never played before. Usually to simplify character creation I'll have them first pick from a category, then choose a class from within the category. So:

Warriors: Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians
Mages: Wizards, Sorcerers
Priests: Clerics, Druids
Rogues: Rogues (duh), Bards, Monks (arguably is better suited for Warrior, but whatever).

The problem is, if someone asks "What's the difference between a Cleric and a Wizard?" I have no idea how to answer that question concisely and in a way that makes sense to someone who's not super familiar with the game rules.

I mean, at first I thought of putting it in MMO terms and saying "Wizards are DPS-oriented while Clerics are more buffers and healbots," but that's a little misleading. Cleric spells still pack a punch, while Wizards have got some of the best buffs and debuffs around. In fact, it's entirely possible to build a Cleric that's mostly offensive in his magic, or a Wizard that hasn't got a single damage-dealing spell, and succeed.

Then I thought about the differences between where and how they get their spells, but is that really going to mean all that much to a first time player?

Really what it comes down to is that they're casters who draw from totally different spell lists. That's maybe the best answer I've got right now :/

Any suggestions?


From a flavor stainpoint?

"Clerics are given their magic but wizards take magic to make their own."


"Clerics know all the spells that their divine power gives them, a wizard has to learn them for himself."


I am assuming good characters for the most party right?

Clerics have divine powers granted to them via devotion to a deity. They have to power to cure wounds and remove ailnesses and even, raise the dead. Additionally, they can call down the fury of their god in holy fire (Pillar of Flame is AWESOME fyi). Clerics of evil deities are masters of life and death and can raise and command the undead.


well...have them read the classes page for wizard and cleric??

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Clerics tend to have healing/support magic, and be better at physical combat, while wizards tend to have more direct attack magic and battlefield manipulation. Let them know there is crossover between roles but that's the gist.

You imply that they've played video game rpgs before. Cleric = white mage, wizard = black mage is not a bad simplification.

Honestly I go with "clerics use powers granted by gods while wizards use magic through study," and let them make their decision based on flavor.


Fighters, Rogues, Barbarians and Monks have no spell casting, and each approaches combat in it's own way. Each has a different way to contribute to non-combat challenges. Of these, Fighters have the fewest skills and Rogues have the most.

Wizards study magic and have little skill in armor and weapons. Clerics are granted spells from a divine source and are skilled with armor and weapons, but not as much as a non-casting class.

Sorcerers are like a Wizard, but can cast a smaller selection of spells more often. Druids are like Clerics, but have ties to nature instead of a deity.

Paladins and Rangers are like Clerics and Druids, but with few spells and greater skill in weapons. Bards combine the skill diversity of Rogues with some of the spell casting of Sorcerers.


ryric wrote:

Clerics tend to have healing/support magic, and be better at physical combat, while wizards tend to have more direct attack magic and battlefield manipulation. Let them know there is crossover between roles but that's the gist.

You imply that they've played video game rpgs before. Cleric = white mage, wizard = black mage is not a bad simplification.

Honestly I go with "clerics use powers granted by gods while wizards use magic through study," and let them make their decision based on flavor.

Hmmm, I like this answer. I'm a huge proponent of choosing class based on flavor anyway, so I'm more than happy to go with this. If they want more info, I can just tell them to read through the class pages in the CRB when no one else is using it - or buy their own, heh.


ryric wrote:
\You imply that they've played video game rpgs before. Cleric = white mage, wizard = black mage is not a bad simplification.

Clerics are red mages, imo.

Anyways... Clerics are divine casters, divine magic is much more buffing and debuffing has more healing and restoration too, but all divine casters in the game are able to wear armor and hit things pretty well while the wizard and sorc are arcane casters, can't wear armor, and have much more blasting. There's some overlap here and there. Both of them can do control and debuffing, but cleric is slightly more in tune with the alignment system while wizards don't need to care because fire cares not who burns.

That's how I think of it anyway.

ryric wrote:
MilesBeyond wrote:
Honestly I go with "clerics use powers granted by gods while wizards use magic through study," and let them make their decision based on flavor.
Hmmm, I like this answer. I'm a huge proponent of choosing class based on flavor anyway, so I'm more than happy to go with this. If they want more info, I can just tell them to read through the class pages in the CRB when no one else is using it - or buy their own, heh.

That might sound great to you, but some people like to know what they're getting into! When I think priest I don't think about a guy who can wear heavy armor and use shield and sword to smash faces. When I think fighter I don't think about a guy who shouts "I full attack!" every round, I think about someone who has talent.

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clerics are awesome because their gods want them to be awesome, and wizards are awesome because THEY want to make themselves awesome.

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

In one sentence?

"Clerics heal the sick, while wizards hurt the healthy."

(It's an incomplete picture, yes, but you can get into "except..." and "unless..." after they have the basics down.)


MilesBeyond wrote:


Really what it comes down to is that they're casters who draw from totally different spell lists. That's maybe the best answer I've got right now :/

Any suggestions?

I think you're overanalyzing it. Yes, it's possible to build a cleric who focuses on offensive spells, and it's also possible to build a buffing wizard, but you need to pick and choose relatively carefully from the spell lists to do so, and that's not something that someone unfamiliar with the game would try to do. If a novice just goes down the list looking for cool spells, he'll end up with a blaster wizard and a buffer cleric.


A wizard meddles in God's domain, a cleric lives there.


Wizard: Work smarter, not harder.

Cleric: Work in mysterious ways, pray harder.
(Alternatively: Cleric: Phone a friend.)


Wizards wear a point hat with stars and moons on it. Clerics wear a point hat with holy symbols on it.


They view I've held previously is that divine magic has an otherworldly consciousness shaping the magic while arcane magic is the caster's own essence that's doing the job.

Or in real life terms, divine magic is a team of artisans that add their personal touch while arcane magic is a robot that's only as good as the caster's program.


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One is the kid with heart arrhythmia who get chosen last for teams and winds up being a goth (sorcerer) or nerd (wizard) in high school.

The other is the kid who is president of the KEY club and the second best player on the baseball team, popular but not defined by being popular (that's the bard in Core), athletic but not defined by being an athlete. I have no idea what the current terminology is but in my day they were called the grinds.


Why not just let them read the description in the book?

I knew what the difference was, even if I did not have the mechanical back ground to make either class really well.


wraithstrike wrote:
Why not just let them read the description in the book?

Possibly because the description in the book is mostly fluff and he's looking for the crunch?

Case in point: cranky dog's dictum that "divine magic has an otherworldly consciousness shaping the magic while arcane magic is the caster's own essence that's doing the job." Nice, but literally so what? Does this have any effect whatsoever on your tabletop experience?

In another system, it might -- clerics spells might not work if the consciousness so chooses, for example. But that's not the case in D&D/Pathfinder. If a vampire dominates a cleric, that cleric will dutifully murder the local high priest of his deity with a slay living spell. The cleric might get an additional save,.... but the spell doesn't.

Basically, that line is a bunch of fluff and backstory that has no effect at the actual tabletop. What a novice player probably wants to know is, e.g., that clerics can hold their own in hand-to-hand combat, if not shine at it, but wizards are terrible. Or that clerics focus on a different kind of spell generally. Or that clerics have behavioral restrictions (alignments) that other classes tend not to. Whatever.


Some good answers in here.

As a corollary, what two spell schools would you recommend someone bar if it's their first time playing? Personally I'm thinking Enchantment, since it tends to revolve around Save or Suck spells, and maybe Necromancy.

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Barring? Ah. COnjuration is the most complex, you're bringing in Pokémon. And Necromancy, yes. But in terms of 'not needing', Evocation probably tops the list. ANd COnjuration has all those fun "I move over here" spells you don't want to give up.

So I'd vote Evoc or COnjuration and Necro or Enchantment, depending on ethics and playstyle.

==Aelryinth

The Exchange

Abjuration, Divination, Illusion and Transmutation are the four that I think of as providing the wizard's most essential tools. You can work around the lack of any two of the other four - I usually say Evocation/Necromancy should go if you're playing a "subtle" wizard and Enchantment/Conjuration should go if your wizard likes to be directly responsible for all those deaths. I'd probably recommend dropping Conjuration, as no newcomer is going to want to have to run a bunch of summoned monsters while still struggling with the system.

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Lincoln Hills wrote:
and Enchantment/Conjuration should go if your wizard likes to be directly responsible for all those deaths. I'd probably recommend dropping Conjuration, as no newcomer is going to want to have to run a bunch of summoned monsters while still struggling with the system.

What? This is terrible advice. The Conjuration school is one of the most essential for Wizards, and contains far more than summoning spells.

A quick list of essential Conjuration spells:

Grease, Mage Armor, Glitterdust, Web, Stinking Cloud, Black Tentacles, Dimension Door, Teleport, Cloudkill, the whole Create Pit spell line...and that's all at only 5th level or less.

Really, Conjuration is the second most essential school after Transmutation. Divination, on the other hand, can be pretty easily banned since most of it's spells are primarily useful in downtime situations.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lincoln Hills wrote:
and Enchantment/Conjuration should go if your wizard likes to be directly responsible for all those deaths. I'd probably recommend dropping Conjuration, as no newcomer is going to want to have to run a bunch of summoned monsters while still struggling with the system.
What? This is terrible advice. The Conjuration school is one of the most essential for Wizards, and contains far more than summoning spells.

It's a powerful school, but it's hardly essential.... and it's difficult for a novice to handle.

If you want a novice-friendly wizard, go for Evocation and Transformation as your focus schools, since those are simple, easy to understand, and easy to use, even if they're not as powerful in the hands of an experienced player.

The Exchange

I agree with you, Deadmanwalking, that Conjuration is one of the most flexible and useful schools - honestly, I rate it third behind Transmutation and Illusion, and it has the edge over those two for direct damage spells. Remember, I'm giving advice for somebody's very first wizard. By the time they're high enough level that Conjuration's best stuff is available they'll probably be playing their second wizard. Or faking it with shadow conjuration, of course. ;)


"Wizards are like Gandalf and Merlin. Clerics are like... umm, nobody, because nobody tells any famous stories about holy men."

And I say that as someone who frequently plays clerics. There's just zero pop-culture awareness of the clerical side of things. You could try trotting out Ben Kenobi, but he just winds up as a monk anyway.

The Exchange

The Jedi aren't an exact parallel, of course, but at least they have the "channelers of an outside, supernatural power" and "good vs. evil" (mostly sorta) themes. So they're a starting reference point.


ryric pretty much offered the prime answer.
But for sh*ts and giggles: Clerics serve Gods. Wizards challenge them. WITH SCIEN-eh I mean WITH MAGIC!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
MilesBeyond wrote:

Specifically, how would you sum up the differences between clerics and wizards in one sentence?

I'm starting a campaign and a couple of people there have never played before. Usually to simplify character creation I'll have them first pick from a category, then choose a class from within the category. So:

Warriors: Fighters, Paladins, Rangers, Barbarians
Mages: Wizards, Sorcerers
Priests: Clerics, Druids
Rogues: Rogues (duh), Bards, Monks (arguably is better suited for Warrior, but whatever).

The problem is, if someone asks "What's the difference between a Cleric and a Wizard?" I have no idea how to answer that question concisely and in a way that makes sense to someone who's not super familiar with the game rules.

I mean, at first I thought of putting it in MMO terms and saying "Wizards are DPS-oriented while Clerics are more buffers and healbots," but that's a little misleading. Cleric spells still pack a punch, while Wizards have got some of the best buffs and debuffs around. In fact, it's entirely possible to build a Cleric that's mostly offensive in his magic, or a Wizard that hasn't got a single damage-dealing spell, and succeed.

Then I thought about the differences between where and how they get their spells, but is that really going to mean all that much to a first time player?

Really what it comes down to is that they're casters who draw from totally different spell lists. That's maybe the best answer I've got right now :/

Any suggestions?

Something along these lines?

Cleric

Wizard


Calybos1 wrote:

"Wizards are like Gandalf and Merlin. Clerics are like... umm, nobody, because nobody tells any famous stories about holy men."

And I say that as someone who frequently plays clerics. There's just zero pop-culture awareness of the clerical side of things. You could try trotting out Ben Kenobi, but he just winds up as a monk anyway.

Russell Crow stared in a Noah movie earlier this year....nature loving hippy becomes @$$ kicking fighter without any training and who gets summoned rock monster and a flood to kill evil city dwellers....


A Cleric is someone's lapdog and lives the life of luxury as long has he stays on his leash... wizards use their leash as the chain of command -- Jayne Cobb style.

For schools to give up on your first go through?

Depends. If you want to be easy on the GM give up conjuration and enchantment.

If you want bang for your buck give up enchantment and evocation.

If you want to keep evocation you can probably live without divination.

If you want power at higher levels keep conjuration.


Give up necromancy and enchantment. Necromancy doesn't become great until higher levels and you can grab an opposition school at 9th level. Enchantment, while cool, doesn't affect a fifth of the likely enemies in the game.

I don't even think conjuration is particularly hard for a newbie. Maybe not quite as simple as evocation, but intuitive enough. Using summoned creatures, all the spells listed above are amongst the most flavorful and useful for the wizard. Especially at lower levels.

As for the difference between Wizards and Clerics mechanically come down to a few things:

Wizards have stronger battlefield control, evading the battlefield, damage, and generally offense tools.

Clerics can do these things too, and if you build one right it can do a lot of damage. Cleric with reach weapon and Murderous Command can do some serious BF control and damage. But generally, clerics are stronger melee characters (which also gives them the advantage on certain touch attacks and debuffs over the wizard). They have diverse healing or harming abilities. And are amongst the strongest raise the dead necromancers in the game.

One of the biggest distinctions is that the Wizard can have access to a much greater universe of spells than the Cleric, in terms of both diversity and strength. However, the Cleric automatically has access to his/her entire spell list; thus, it is unlikely a Cleric will be caught with his/her vestments down. Preparedness v. Incredible Diversity. God-given, but limited v. Hard-earned, but expansive. Also Wizards pay a lot for magic, Clerics pay a lot for armor and weapons.

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