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Pretty REMARKABLE if you ask me!Except Marvel Super Heroes from 1985 - that one will ALWAYS be in my rotation!That's AMAZING! Or maybe even INCREDIBLE!
Sounds UNCANNY to me!
I just had an epiphany of sorts. I was looking in my red box for a quote for another thread when I started to look at the pictures for the Basic Rules, Expert Rules, Companion Rules, Master Rules, and Immortal Rules and realized there was a progression.
Basic: That fighter in furry shorts with a large shield and long sword is going to get hosed.
Expert: The better armored fighter on horseback is going to get in one good shot . . . before he dies.
Companion: That blue full-plated knight with that supremely magical two-handed sword (not 'greatsword') is going to gut that green dragon from throat to belly.
Master: The dragon is mastered; a mount for a king.
Immortal: The dragon is left behind.
I don't know if this was planned out by the designers, or if I'm just a late-comer to something people have known for decades. It's just something I thought of and thought this thread would be the best place to put it.
Mark your one lucky dude would love my own gaming room
A few years ago the wife and i where looking for a house to rent and i almost convinced her to go for a place that had a huge cellar was all done out carpeted the lot but she wasn't keen for some reason so it never came to pass
Enjoy
Maybe I am old and cynical, but it seemed like we used to play a greater variety of games.......until 3rd edition and the OGL, which was very successful as a universal system, to the point of almost obliterating everything else.
The last few years saw kind of a game system revival however, and good quality stuff too. I have hopes that people will start diversifying a bit more again.
[edit] however, people had more time to dedicate to games before. I don't care what people say, web 2.0 and wide, reliable mobile connections changed a lot in how/what people do with their free time.
[post-edit] Correction, people have just as much time for games, but entertainment being immediately available, less time is given to social games. AS everything must be optimised these days, specialisation is often preferable to generalisation.
Interesting point. I fear you are right.
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Sounds UNCANNY to me!Pretty REMARKABLE if you ask me!Except Marvel Super Heroes from 1985 - that one will ALWAYS be in my rotation!That's AMAZING! Or maybe even INCREDIBLE!
...SHIFT X!!!!
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Ok, so... game night happened. Sorry to disappoint Tozzy Tozbourne, but there were no pics.
So first my players arrived, we had pizza and jawed for about an hour. I met a new player and had 4 others I've gamed with before. After food, drinks and some intros we were off.
An APL 2 party consisting of:
NG male human rogue 2
NG male dwarf cleric (Saranrae)2
NG male human fighter (Polearm Master)2
CG male human ranger (Dungeon Rover)2
CG male Halfling sorcerer 2 - never did get his bloodline
So, the last session saw the PCs head to the local megadungeon on the mission of getting down through a couple levels to an underground lake, then from there they were to locate a newly opened section. The end goals are to map the new place and recover any religious artifacts they could.
Unfortunately in their first foray out they had encountered a very hard fight with a young wyvern and their former paladin PC had died. The opening of last night's session saw the party at the Hammered Dragon inn speaking with their benefactor, the innkeeper. The polearm master, and the Halfling sorcerer are both new to the party so we intro'd them and had a brief RP scene. Then the party set off to enter the Lower Warrens.
Thankfully their path to the first of the entrances, the Howling Step was encounter-free. They smashed their way in only to find the entrance dead ended in a disturbing sight: a deep pit filled with dead children who'd been disfigured and their blood splashed on the walls and painted into profane symbols. It turned out to be a Lamashtan worship site and it repulsed positive energy turning it to negative. The victims had been animated as zombies and the party could find no way down so they prepared to rappel down and deal with the threat when goblins ambushed them from behind.
They dispatched one while 3 slipped through a secret door. Following these creatures they discovered the mechanism to open the door and the rogue entered finding a stairwell down on the other side of the wall. He succeeded in a Perception Check and a reflex save; he was not injured by a falling spike trap while he was able to act in the surprise round to start dealing with 2 goblins aiming short bows up at him.
The party quickly followed and one goblin held them on the stairs while another went to activate a trap to flatten the stairs. All three PCs made their save, slid safely to the bottom of the stairwell and finished the goblins handily.
Exploring with caution they noted several hallways branching off as well as 2 doors. One of these seemed to be a non-descript wooden dungeon door while the other had a relief of a twisted face on it with its mouth gaping and religious glyphs. Finally in one of the side halls they heard a strange, blubbery sloshing but saw nothing.
Splitting the party (I KNOW right?) the PCs went to investigate both the sound and the face door at once. The door's Sound Burst trap, revealed in the horrible face screaming at the trespassers dealt a little damage and stunned the cleric while the fighter and ranger engaged a gelatinous cube. The next several rounds were a hard fight seeing the fighter and ranger, as well as a dying goblin with negative hp engulfed in the creature's relentless form until at last he was laid low by a combination of the cleric's fire bolts and ironically the halfling's acid splash cantrip.
The night ended with a conversation, part in character part in RL. The new player was indifferent to the session; he's new and we're still getting to know each other's styles. However 2 of the other players expressed some concern that we're just hacking this giant dungeon and not getting anywhere while the other 2 players sort of shrugged and admitted that's the nature of a megadungeon.
It was a good conversation for me as GM though. It really gave me some concrete evidence of a direction to take the game. One of the players who isn't gelling with the megadungeon said specifically that he'd like to break out into the wilds, find smaller, compact sites or quests and achieve some objectives. He'd also like to see some progress made on level and gear gains - currently the PCs are at WBL for level 2 but a lot of that wealth is in very mundane gear.
My players all seem to be leaning toward a greater desire to explore. My suggestion to them at this point is that we move into hex crawl mode. I have several local hexes around the home base city keyed with encounters, adventure sites and resources. I also urged the players to create personal goals for their PCs. Rather than using the missions as the driving point of the story I want my players to flip their perspective. The missions are a way to gather resources and power for the personal things they want to accomplish.
For example the rogue belongs to a group which is a bold-faced rip off of the Pathfinder Society in my homebrew. I suggested to him maybe he wants his character to eventually become a "Delve Marshall" (venture captain). If this is a goal of the rogue's then the current Delve Marshall informing their missions would pick out smaller, targeted runs to give the rogue the opportunity to acquire the archaeological discoveries the rogue needs to succeed.
Lastly the gaming space worked out GREAT! My wife and kids couldn't hear us and were able to get to bed without issue. My players and I enjoyed several intense moments without having to shout over crowds, pause for people passing through or deal with distractions. I say again that I hope EVERYONE in this thread gets to be so lucky as to have a dedicated space just for gaming while they enjoy this hobby of ours!
...SHIFT X!!!!Sounds UNCANNY to me!Pretty REMARKABLE if you ask me!Except Marvel Super Heroes from 1985 - that one will ALWAYS be in my rotation!That's AMAZING! Or maybe even INCREDIBLE!
Class 5000
If your players want to explore more ( as a megadungeon can be a bit daunting ) how about you have some clues or rumors that the denizens of the megadungeon are spreading out into the surrounding regions maybe looking for something of importance.
This way the players can go on a search in the wilderness but its still tied into the main campaign ?
Its the kind of thing i would do what for you think ?
Ok, so... game night happened. Sorry to disappoint Tozzy Tozbourne, but there were no pics.
So first my players arrived, we had pizza and jawed for about an hour. I met a new player and had 4 others I've gamed with before. After food, drinks and some intros we were off.
** spoiler omitted **...
It sounds like you finally got answers out of your players! I'm glad!
@ 2-faced magus: yes, answers are coming from the dialogue started last night and continuing through emails all day today. Essentially it boils down to that the players want to feel they have some short term goals to shoot for.
Independent of me the players have emailed among themselves (cc'ing me) and discussed possible goals. While exploration isn't off the table yet, they're now talking about having a goal of using traps, hour-per-level spells and other party abilities to get a toe hold IN the dungeon. Once secured, they're hoping to somehow get aid from the town from someone to help fortify it. Such a beach head would then become their base camp and a ready source of resupply for the party to delve deeper and deeper from.
I've mentioned that there's a dwarf hall in the ruins but they're lawful neutral and willing to work with kobolds. There's also a sort of creepy, secretive religious order, an offshoot of the faith of Apsu the good dragon. Neither of these groups appealed to my players initially so I think they're really focused on setting up their own safe zone for their PCs. This of course is FINE with me and I'm wholeheartedly encouraging it if this is what they want. I've even offered some flashbacks to events in previous sessions to give them several avenues of aid they might pursue.
@ Gent magazine: you read my mind buddy! Kobolds have been a running theme in this game and it's no secret in my campaign that they're searching for stuff to try out a variety of ways to break the divine power imprisoning their "goddess" the blue dragon Ballathunda inside an endless thunderstorm.
If the PCs decide to go out exploring the wilds I'll have them meet with some kobold outriders and disparate cells. These groups of course will be afield trying to gather resources, special materials, McGuffins or maybe just slave labor to perpetrate one the 99 "scale-brained schemes" of their "meigers" (boss kobolds) to free Ballathunda.
Thanks to everyone who've helped out in this and my numerous other threads. Your skill and suggestions have gone a long way to shape this game and for the better!
@ 2-faced magus: yes, answers are coming from the dialogue started last night and continuing through emails all day today. Essentially it boils down to that the players want to feel they have some short term goals to shoot for.
Independent of me the players have emailed among themselves (cc'ing me) and discussed possible goals. While exploration isn't off the table yet, they're now talking about having a goal of using traps, hour-per-level spells and other party abilities to get a toe hold IN the dungeon. Once secured, they're hoping to somehow get aid from the town from someone to help fortify it. Such a beach head would then become their base camp and a ready source of resupply for the party to delve deeper and deeper from.
I've mentioned that there's a dwarf hall in the ruins but they're lawful neutral and willing to work with kobolds. There's also a sort of creepy, secretive religious order, an offshoot of the faith of Apsu the good dragon. Neither of these groups appealed to my players initially so I think they're really focused on setting up their own safe zone for their PCs. This of course is FINE with me and I'm wholeheartedly encouraging it if this is what they want. I've even offered some flashbacks to events in previous sessions to give them several avenues of aid they might pursue.
By the sounds of things, you managed to get them hooked on the dungeon. That's usually a good sign. That they are making such efforts on their own and deciding the focus on their own will hopefully only make your work easier. Plus, the base came serves as a source of additional quests as needed.
Can I suggest regularly giving them quests to secure supplies and such for their delve?
Class 5000...SHIFT X!!!!Sounds UNCANNY to me!Pretty REMARKABLE if you ask me!Except Marvel Super Heroes from 1985 - that one will ALWAYS be in my rotation!That's AMAZING! Or maybe even INCREDIBLE!
Beyond. </thread> :)
Sounds like you've got things well in hand the players seem keen on the dungeon now which is a big plus also you could get then to make up some extra characters which you could use as npc minions
They could be used to guard there home base camp protecting it and also could do the legwork on getting supplies from town .
Then you also have characters they've created which can be brought in if someone buys the farm !
@ 2-faced magus: yes, answers are coming from the dialogue started last night and continuing through emails all day today. Essentially it boils down to that the players want to feel they have some short term goals to shoot for.
Independent of me the players have emailed among themselves (cc'ing me) and discussed possible goals. While exploration isn't off the table yet, they're now talking about having a goal of using traps, hour-per-level spells and other party abilities to get a toe hold IN the dungeon. Once secured, they're hoping to somehow get aid from the town from someone to help fortify it. Such a beach head would then become their base camp and a ready source of resupply for the party to delve deeper and deeper from.
I've mentioned that there's a dwarf hall in the ruins but they're lawful neutral and willing to work with kobolds. There's also a sort of creepy, secretive religious order, an offshoot of the faith of Apsu the good dragon. Neither of these groups appealed to my players initially so I think they're really focused on setting up their own safe zone for their PCs. This of course is FINE with me and I'm wholeheartedly encouraging it if this is what they want. I've even offered some flashbacks to events in previous sessions to give them several avenues of aid they might pursue.
By the sounds of things, you managed to get them hooked on the dungeon. That's usually a good sign. That they are making such efforts on their own and deciding the focus on their own will hopefully only make your work easier. Plus, the base came serves as a source of additional quests as needed.
Can I suggest regularly giving them quests to secure supplies and such for their delve?
Suggestions are always welcome MJ Watson. One of the PCs was a paladin but he died. Still even at this low level the PC had a huge impact on the game so another player thought they'd contact his former church of Iomedae to help set up an outpost.
My thought was to have the main general of the church who is legendary for his apathy to social causes ignore the party but have a lesser functionary (around 6th level cleric) promise to help if the party can help her secure some gear from the dungeon and eradicate a cult of Lamashtu they'd found.
Then, once they've got this modest ally on their side the PCs will go on other side quests either into the dungeons or out into the lands around in order to secure other backers. There might also be a "survive the siege" type scenario on their burgeoning stronghold.
Yes! The party is looking to establish a home base! That is huge.
My advice is that it's a spot near the entrance to the dungeon, perhaps a small cave or ruin within an hour's walk of the entrance. It'll start as little more than a Minecraft hideyhole or a campsite, but grow from there. The growth and success of the homebase will make for a very strong feeling of accomplishment, as well as a feeling of security that will lead the party to more exploring--both megadungeon delving and wilderness exploration. Make sure that there's a village within a day's walk for resupply as necessary.
Eventually, as the homebase grows, it will become a good place for hirelings. Someone to guard the base while the PCs are out, cooking, cleaning, building defenses, all the boring downtime stuff. The homebase will eventually grow into a stronghold, a castle, maybe even its own village.
Suggestions are always welcome MJ Watson. One of the PCs was a paladin but he died. Still even at this low level the PC had a huge impact on the game so another player thought they'd contact his former church of Iomedae to help set up an outpost.
My thought was to have the main general of the church who is legendary for his apathy to social causes ignore the party but have a lesser functionary (around 6th level cleric) promise to help if the party can help her secure some gear from the dungeon and eradicate a cult of Lamashtu they'd found.
Then, once they've got this modest ally on their side the PCs will go on other side quests either into the dungeons or out into the lands around in order to secure other backers. There might also be a "survive the siege" type scenario on their burgeoning stronghold.
That sounds like an extremely fun game!
I hope they will enjoy it ^.^
Does anybody actually "Pick Pockets" anymore?Yes.
I'm not allowed to play 'thief' type PC's anymore because I did it so much (among other reasons)
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Question for all us oldtimers.
How do you do traps in your games?
Personally I think traps should be DETERRENT (meaning mostly deadly or barriors to continue) rather then a bump in the road (a charge or 2 from the CLW wand and you get some xp). I might give a quarter xp for blundering into or purposely setting it off, also traps that get set off might also set off alarms. You have to have some type of knowledge (trapfinding, disable devise, craft trap, etc) to be able to recognise that that odd something your perception check noticed is actually a trap. As others have said, traps should be in places that make since (secret passages, actual dungeons, etc).
These are some of the things I do to make traps more meaningful.
Not an oldtimer, but I use traps frequently.
Question for all us oldtimers.
How do you do traps in your games? ...
If a published module has the occasional trap, I probably just leave them as is. If it is full of nuisance traps without a reason*, I will eliminate most of them and beef up a few of them.
* Sometimes there is a story reason for them, like training aids for cadets. Then I leave them alone.
If I'm making something myself. I try and put myself in the mind of the Main opponent. How rich, paranoid, fearful, intelligent, sneaky, etc... is he?
Then I place them where it makes sense. If the cook is going to get killed opening the pantry, it is probably not appropriate for most cases. If every squirrel running across the wall will set off an expensive trap, it probably doesn't make sense. If a trap will fry the BBEG every time he gets dressed, it probably doesn't make sense.
Traps are almost always loud to raise an alarm. Sometimes they only make noise if the owner doesn't want to chance killing the wrong people. If a trap is dangerous, it is deadly. Why would anyone go to the expense of putting in a trap that just might give someone a bruised shin? Damage is lots of dice or poison DC is high.
If a trap is to incapacitate and capture a thief, it will have a realistic chance of succeeding. A silent trap of paralysis DC=12, duration d4 rounds, at a location where there is little chance of danger or discovery?!? Why would anyone bother with that?
mine would be AT LEAST a DC=18 (for low level groups), paralysis would be 10's of minutes or even hours, plus a flash of light and/or alarm to bring guards running.
Traps are best used in a few different ways:
As a reminder that the area IS dangerous. Sort of a wakeup call. For a while after hitting one, the party will be more careful.
As a delaying tactic to allow something else to happen. Say, getting a BBEG to his aerial mount.
As a known entity. Think Indiana Jones III, he knew about the traps at the end for quite a while, and had thought about them when he got there.
As part of a vibrant encounter. Say that a hallway has a large trap that severely changes the environment of combat there. It could do several different things depending on a lot of factors. Someone who knows this can use it to great advantage against someone else. Say, the heroes could use this to soften the rival team exploring the dungeon, if they think to.
But no, in general, traps as written today (damage or status) are usually not useful in any other particular regard.
Question for all us oldtimers.How do you do traps in your games?
Personally I think traps should be DETERRENT (meaning mostly deadly or barriors to continue) rather then a bump in the road (a charge or 2 from the CLW wand and you get some xp). I might give a quarter xp for blundering into or purposely setting it off, also traps that get set off might also set off alarms. You have to have some type of knowledge (trapfinding, disable devise, craft trap, etc) to be able to recognise that that odd something your perception check noticed is actually a trap. As others have said, traps should be in places that make since (secret passages, actual dungeons, etc).
These are some of the things I do to make traps more meaningful.
I use traps where they are appropriate. Traps have a function dependent on the desires (and ability / resources) of those who set them. They may be deadly, they may confine people, they may slow down pursuers, and so on. They shouldn't be insignificant unless their purpose is simply to harass their victims. Or the people who set them were incompetent :D
You come to a 3 way intersection, what do you do?
Player 1: I...
Everyone roll a Ref save DC 25. Those who fail take... 48 damage. Those who save take half.
Player 2: ... but, we're 2nd level...
What can I say? Rocks fall... you die...
That's how I roll(play) bi***es!
No but seriously, use traps that inflict conditions and give them the description of the mechanism, nothing more. Or for more fun give them an obvious trapped area (no Perception rolls) but DON'T tell them the mechanism.
"You come into an open, 10' wide hall with bloodstained walls. There is a gruesome looking blade in a slot on the wall. The bloodstained area extends as far as your torchlight in either direction (80')."
It's fun to trap the entrance, too. Most people expect traps inside the dungeon, not just outside (where, actually, they make the most sense).
On megadungeons:
My suggestion is to make sure there are many exits from the megadungeon back to the surface. Once the players discover a few of theses, they probably won't feel so claustrophobic about exploring. I know personally I hate getting slogged down in a cave/dungeon/whatever and feel like I am trapped in there. Frequent exits help alleviate that.
On traps:
I enjoy using traps and do so as often as I can without them becoming tedious or slowing the pace of the game too much. I think traps are best used as resource drainers and/or temporary conditions. A pit trap that deals 2d6 damage isn't a big deal, but when monsters attack right after a PC falls in, it makes the battle more difficult.
Poisons can be useful as they weaken one or more PCs for a short while. Small amounts of damage can help reduce overall hit points (my players generally don't walk around with a lot of wands of CLW, and even if they do, they rarely use them for fear of not having them when they truly need them.)
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Does anybody actually "Pick Pockets" anymore?Yes.
Yes. Oh and by the way, your watch battery needs replacement, and one of your credit cards has expired.
Sandbox doesn't mean plotless.
Actually, that is exactly what I was always told it was.
The GM puts in some random plot hooks, describes some stuff, and the PC's do whatever they feel like. The GM doesn't have any overall plot. He just builds up a world for the PC's to interact with. Then everyone sees what happens from that point.
That is how a sandbox campaign was always described to me.
Sandbox doesn't mean plotless.Actually, that is exactly what I was always told it was.
The GM puts in some random plot hooks, describes some stuff, and the PC's do whatever they feel like. The GM doesn't have any overall plot. He just builds up a world for the PC's to interact with. Then everyone sees what happens from that point.
That is how a sandbox campaign was always described to me.
Well, the whole "putting in random plot hooks" is what makes the game not plotless. I've seen sandboxes where nothing happens and the PCs have to MAKE their own adventure in the past; they aren't fun. That way leads to inns and taverns burning to the ground over a copper piece. Oh, how many public houses went up in smoke in my early days!
Well, the whole "putting in random plot hooks" is what makes the game not plotless. I've seen sandboxes where nothing happens and the PCs have to MAKE their own adventure in the past; they aren't fun. That way leads to inns and taverns burning to the ground over a copper piece. Oh, how many public houses went up in smoke in my early days!Sandbox doesn't mean plotless.Actually, that is exactly what I was always told it was.
The GM puts in some random plot hooks, describes some stuff, and the PC's do whatever they feel like. The GM doesn't have any overall plot. He just builds up a world for the PC's to interact with. Then everyone sees what happens from that point.
That is how a sandbox campaign was always described to me.
What I meant by "putting in random plot hooks" is the GM would have the players hear rumors that someone's niece is missing, that 2 trade ships are later than expected, and maybe that the harvest was unusually poor even though the weather was good. If the players decide to chase one of those down, then the GM will make up some sort of mini-adventure for it.
There is no overall plot or anything happening. At best it is a bunch of just the side-quests, while the PC's pursue whatever it is they want to accomplish (if anything).That how a sandbox was defined to me.
Unless I am missing something, what you described as a sandbox is to me just a normal campaign.
I've stated before in my views that a little railroading is not a bad thing. Too much is, though.
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There is no overall plot or anything happening. At best it is a bunch of just the side-quests, while the PC's pursue whatever it is they want to accomplish (if anything).
Those side quests ARE the plot. There doesn't have to be an overarching story for something to be a plot. It might make more sense and be more narratively engaging, but 'crew of misfits doing what they need to survive' is still a plot. The PCs actions become the plot.
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Sandbox doesn't mean plotless or play/player driven plots, a sandbox can have an overarching plot - they just are not presented in a linear fashion.
Players are hired to find the source of the threats and deal with them while playing in a huge environ area, no time table and no fixed sequence of encounters. This kind of sandbox doesn't revolve around the players (as thejeff suggested) but in fact is just a living world that moves and has events occur.
The idea is as the players explore the map (and there are tons of areas to explore - this was the original Fallout before there was a Fallout pc game) they will get sucked into the plot...at some point. But they don't have to. Since the game was not based on level encounter A can be just as deadly if explored after B, C and D locations.
Overarching plot =/= railroad
Having to go to locations A, B, C, D in sequence and talk to/do X, Y, Z or the whole thing doesn't work = railroad
And Railroads are just as much fun to me as running a sandbox, so when I lay out my model above it isn't casting one or the other in a negative light. The only negative about railroads is if you can see the track or where it's going - If you can't then you will have fun on the ride.
I think people are bringing their negative experiences or biases to the discussion when really these are stylistic or gaming preferences.
Using a basic "sandbox" campaign format can really be a lot of fun and helps GMs from having to write a 12-20 level chain of congruently linked adventures. Keeping a simple theme like "Pathfinder Society" or "profitable venturing into the Mwangi jungles for the glory of Cheliax" can glue it all together and provide the opportunity to include recurring villains, rivals, and allies. It also allows for short hooks and disjoined stories. You also get the illusion of freedom (verisimilitude!) that is hard to achieve in a "railroad" plot.
Don't get me wrong- they're both good. I think that the themed sandbox is the easiest way to get a fun campaign, though. Railroads require too much effort to make work.
Power to you, thejeff. I've always found shorter adventures easier to write. I think I expect too much from myself when I'm trying to write whole campaigns as a single, long story.
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As I approach my 50th year, I occasionally think about my shelves of gaming material and that they will eventually have new owners. Not to intentionally be morbid, but do you folks who have large gaming collections ever think of what happens to your stuff after your demise?
Passing it on to your kids or nephews/nieces who are gamers would be the natural thing, but if you haven't got gamers in the family what then? As I fall into this latter category, I was thinking about passing on my collection to a buddy who owns a game store with the instructions that he keeps whatever he wants for himself and have the rest given away to any customer who wants them.
My son will get all my things, provided he wants them. Hopefully that's a ways off.
If I were to die one day, any family then would have their choice. Some of the things might even be valuable. Anything remaining would go to my gaming buddies. Of course.
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I got into roleplaying through wargaming. I used to have a warhammer club at school in the 90s. One day a really fat sixth-form student with a beard on his neck turned up and invited us to a roleplaying club.
I started playing ad&d 2nd ed and quickly became obsessed with it. Skipped 3rd until 3.5 came out, and then moved to Pathfinder in 2010. (I do play other systems as well)
Now I’m the one with the beard who goes around trying to recruit new players..