What does a Fighter do that a Ranger doesn't?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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I only read the first 50 posts and skimmed the second 50. But as far as I've seen several posters pointed at the fact that the ranger can't always use his favoured enemy bonus without using up spells but nobody pointed at the fact that the fighter might not always be able to use his favoured weapon.

Especially at lower levels, if the party finds a powerful magic weapon. The ranger can just pick it up and use it with no penalty (as long as it's simple or martial). The fighter can use it, too. But he only gets the full benefits if it happens to be the weapon he has weapon focus and/or weapon specialization in it.

Only the full magic mart allows the fighter to always have a tailor made magic weapon of the right type. Sure, other fighting styles have the same problem.


LazarX wrote:
Let me see how fast your Ranger is running in Heavy armor and what your armor checks are like and come back to me again.

This is probably the most confrontational phrasing of "I agree" I have ever seen. :p


Let's go for another build, what can a sword and board fighter that a ranger can't do?
this:
Again, Human fighter (Just love Humans as fighters)
16/14/14/13/11/7
Lvl 1 Dodge
Human Shield Focus
BF 1 Power Attack
BF 2 Combat Expertise
Lvl 3 Weapon Focus
BF 4 Weapon Spec.
Lvl 5 Missile Shield
BF 6 Disruptive
Lvl 7 Covering defense
BF 8 Greater Shield Focus
Lvl 9 Imp Crit
BF 10 Spellbreaker
Lvl 11 Ray Shield
BF 12 Shield Master/Greater Weapon Specialization

PFS char.
Like I said, you just need to select something to specialize then go and stock feats.

Remember both classes are good, one can stack up feats and do something really focused (fighter) and the other one is more versatile skipping prerequisites with combat style and gaining self buffs with spells.


Another thing the Fighter can really do is max out on 2 handed weapon damage via feats. Dont see any other class that can really do this and get the full effect due to lack of feats to really pull it all off and still be somewhat survivable with save buff feats which im a pretty big fan of.

The amount of feats you can take in a chain to buff your damage is pretty significant and works on every enemy you face not just favored enemies.

The last human fighter i ran early on did:

Power Attack, cleave, finishing cleave, furious focus- made killing anything less than lvl 5 super easy, esp if they stood close together- DM got pretty sick of this.

Then moved on into devastating strike and vital strike in the mid levels.- DM hates this combo to.

To me vital strike is crucial as you can get a move/charge off and still hit for massive amounts of damage with your 1 swing a round, due to doubling/tripling your damage dice and +4/6 damage from devastating strike.

Yep I still only swing once but odds are it doesnt miss and will do on average 30-40+ damage on a normal hit then factor a x2 or x3 crit and things die fast. Plus figure in your magic on your weapon and it takes something pretty decent to survive more than a hit or two from a fighter with this feat line. We got to one of the runelord boss fights and my fighter basically won the fight pretty quick....big baddies flight was dispelled, I got to him critical hit for over 100, other party memebers surrounded along with terrain to limit movement and got some attacks in. Next round full attack critical again for over 100..boss dead.


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Vital Strike does not work on a charge. It is a trap feat chain for pretty much anyone who isnt wildshaping into a giant hippopotamus. Devastating Strike is just awful.

The two handed fighting style pretty much just needs Power Attack to be effective. If you are a 3/4 BaB class then you want Furious Focus but it isn't crucial for full BaB characters.


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Ilja wrote:
Fighters are simple, and elegant because of it, and I hate that no one seems to appreciate that. Power Gamers be damned!

They are not simple. Barbarians are simple. They are not elegant. Paladins are elegant. They've been a gimp class since 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons. Their Pathfinderization is notably inferior to the Pathfinderization of Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians.

Ah, the Ol' "If You Want A Fighter To Not Be Bad At Fighting You're a Power-Gamer!" thing. I guess you don't know that people who decry things like Fighter's lack of interesting abilities and versatility are actually FANS of this class. I would like for this class to not be garbage mechanically. I would like for most martial feats to not be garbage with luridly high pre-requisites.


Best straight Fighter I ever made - no other class could hope to do something like this, but at the same time he still had his weaknesses, specifically low Will saves, below average skills and the need for healing... those vulnerabilities can be mitigated somewhat, but doing so is always at the expense of what the Fighter was designed to do. Fighters play best as part of the group because they are one of the most 'dependent on others' characters in the game - fortunately, this game was intended to be played with others, so I don't see that as an inherent flaw.
.
.
Human Weaponmaster
1st - Dodge
1st - Power Attack
1st - Cleave
2nd - Mobility
3rd - Combat Expertise
4th - Spring Attack (swap Cleave for Whirlwind Attack)
5th - Combat Reflexes
6th - Lunge
7th - Weapon Focus: Bardiche
8th - Greater Weapon Focus: Bardiche
9th - Improved Critical: Bardiche
10th - Critical Focus
11th - Dazing Assault
12th - Sickening Critical
13th - Staggering Critical
14th - Critical Mastery
15th - Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
16th - Greater Weapon Specialization: Bardiche
17th - Stunning Critical
18th - Vital Strike
19th - Improved Vital Strike
20th - Greater Vital Strike


A fighter is considerably better archer tank than the ranger.


Its a basic AoE daze build, not seeing what is so great about it, especially at high level when the DC you impose simply wont keep up with enemy saves.

Dark Archive

What is an archer tank? A luring cavalier?


Jadeite wrote:
What is an archer tank?

well, an arher that tanks ;p

Joking aside, is a frontliner arcehr.


Jadeite wrote:
What is an archer tank? A luring cavalier?

I assume an archer who stays in melee and uses a combination of Point Blank Master and the Snap Shot line of feats to control a fairly large area of the battle. Unlike polearm based AoE builds you absolutely will be pumping your Dex as high as it can go and so will have a huge number of opportunity attacks to use.

Dark Archive

Even with Point Blank Master and Snap Shot, standing in the frontline is a pretty bad idea for an archer. Sundering a bow is rather easy.


Jadeite wrote:
Even with Point Blank Master and Snap Shot, standing in the frontline is a pretty bad idea for an archer. Sundering a bow is rather easy.

Harder to do with a fighter who is getting a fair amount of bonuses to CMD.


SPCDRI wrote:
Ilja wrote:

Fighters are simple, and elegant because of it, and I hate that no one seems to appreciate that. Power Gamers be damned!

They are not simple. Barbarians are simple. They are not elegant. Paladins are elegant. They've been a gimp class since 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons. Their Pathfinderization is notably inferior to the Pathfinderization of Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians.

Ah, the Ol' "If You Want A Fighter To Not Be Bad At Fighting You're a Power-Gamer!" thing. I guess you don't know that people who decry things like Fighter's lack of interesting abilities and versatility are actually FANS of this class. I would like for this class to not be garbage mechanically. I would like for most martial feats to not be garbage with luridly high pre-requisites.

I'm pretty sure that wasn't me you were quoting? If there's one thing fighters aren't, it's simple.

Dark Archive

andreww wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Even with Point Blank Master and Snap Shot, standing in the frontline is a pretty bad idea for an archer. Sundering a bow is rather easy.
Harder to do with a fighter who is getting a fair amount of bonuses to CMD.

+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.


Jadeite wrote:
andreww wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Even with Point Blank Master and Snap Shot, standing in the frontline is a pretty bad idea for an archer. Sundering a bow is rather easy.
Harder to do with a fighter who is getting a fair amount of bonuses to CMD.
+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.

Actually, a 15th level human lore warden can have +8 vs all maneuvers, +23 vs sunder/disarm. That's just from class abilities and class-specific FCB.


Jadeite wrote:
andreww wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
Even with Point Blank Master and Snap Shot, standing in the frontline is a pretty bad idea for an archer. Sundering a bow is rather easy.
Harder to do with a fighter who is getting a fair amount of bonuses to CMD.
+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.

Human Favored Class Options

Fighter Add +1 to the Fighter's CMD when resisting two combat maneuvers of the character's choice.

Take grapple for the second.

================
Impervious

Price +3,000 gp
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 7th; Weight —

DESCRIPTION

An impervious weapon is warded from damage and decay. A metallic weapon cannot rust and a wooden weapon cannot rot or warp, even by magical or supernatural means. An impervious weapon gains double the normal bonus to its hardness and hit points for each point of its enhancement bonus. The break DC for an impervious weapon and the wielder's combat maneuver defense against sunder maneuvers against the impervious weapon each gain a bonus equal to twice the weapon's enhancement bonus.

=================

Also, we are talking about a combination of high Dex and good str.


It'd be interesting seeing a Monk (Maneuver Master) 1/Fighter (Lore Warden) archer/maneuvrer at the frontline. If someone gets too close, that's what bull rush is for. :D

(since it seems you can combine flurry of maneuvers with other weapon attacks freely).


Jadeite wrote:
+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.

If an opponent wants to sunder a bow, being 30 feet away and maybe even 60 feet away isn't much of an obstacle.

Charge and Sunder can be done in one round.

Snapshot gives an AOO potential on the opponent's approach and another for an untrained Sunder attempt. Point Blank Master allows a full action attack retaliation without causing an AOO if the sunder fails.

These two potentials can prevent a lot of sunder attempts.

Dark Archive

So now fighters become increasingly specialized, just to prevent their opponents from sundering their weapons when there are things like like trip or grapple that can ruin their day just as easily.


Rory wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.

If an opponent wants to sunder a bow, being 30 feet away and maybe even 60 feet away isn't much of an obstacle.

Charge and Sunder can be done in one round.

Snapshot gives an AOO potential on the opponent's approach and another for an untrained Sunder attempt. Point Blank Master allows a full action attack retaliation without causing an AOO if the sunder fails.

These two potentials can prevent a lot of sunder attempts.

And do not forget that the damage from the AoO reduce the CMB for that maneuver.

And pin down. At that level whatever that charges you and do not have 15 ft of reach have a good chances of not getting the chance to attack you.


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Jadeite wrote:
So now fighters become increasingly specialized, just to prevent their opponents from sundering their weapons when there are things like like trip or grapple that can ruin their day just as easily.

Not sure what is the problem. You get range of an archer, You can do a lot of damge from a range and you also become a melee threat with the chance of defending you allies with your high AC and CMD.

And at higher level we are talking about a 15 ft treatened area where things get pined down and anyone that teleport get attacked.

Dark Archive

Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rory wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.

If an opponent wants to sunder a bow, being 30 feet away and maybe even 60 feet away isn't much of an obstacle.

Charge and Sunder can be done in one round.

Snapshot gives an AOO potential on the opponent's approach and another for an untrained Sunder attempt. Point Blank Master allows a full action attack retaliation without causing an AOO if the sunder fails.

These two potentials can prevent a lot of sunder attempts.

And do not forget that the damage from the AoO reduce the CMB for that maneuver.

And pin down. At that level whatever that charges you and do not have 15 ft of reach have a good chances of not getting the chance to attack you.

This pin down?

Quote:

Pin Down (Combat)

You easily block enemy escapes.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, fighter level 11th.

Benefit: Whenever an opponent you threaten takes a 5-foot step or uses the withdraw action, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If the attack hits, you deal no damage, but the targeted creature is prevented from making the move action that granted a 5-foot step or the withdraw action and does not move.

That does not work against opponents charging you. Or taking a move action. It prevents them from taking 5 foot steps, though, which is rather nice.


Jadeite wrote:
So now fighters become increasingly specialized, just to prevent their opponents from sundering their weapons when there are things like like trip or grapple that can ruin their day just as easily.

At decently high levels you fly, so trip doesn't work, and if your CMD is low enough that you fear grapple, you get an item that provides either freedom of movement (ring of freedom of movement) or some limited usage dimension door (boots of escape, cape of the mountebank).


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Jadeite wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:
Rory wrote:
Jadeite wrote:
+6 at best. Still pretty easy, especially for big opponents with a high CMB.

If an opponent wants to sunder a bow, being 30 feet away and maybe even 60 feet away isn't much of an obstacle.

Charge and Sunder can be done in one round.

Snapshot gives an AOO potential on the opponent's approach and another for an untrained Sunder attempt. Point Blank Master allows a full action attack retaliation without causing an AOO if the sunder fails.

These two potentials can prevent a lot of sunder attempts.

And do not forget that the damage from the AoO reduce the CMB for that maneuver.

And pin down. At that level whatever that charges you and do not have 15 ft of reach have a good chances of not getting the chance to attack you.

This pin down?

Quote:

Pin Down (Combat)

You easily block enemy escapes.

Prerequisites: Combat Reflexes, fighter level 11th.

Benefit: Whenever an opponent you threaten takes a 5-foot step or uses the withdraw action, that opponent provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If the attack hits, you deal no damage, but the targeted creature is prevented from making the move action that granted a 5-foot step or the withdraw action and does not move.

That does not work against opponents charging you. Or taking a move action. It prevents them from taking 5 foot steps, though, which is rather nice.

I stand corrected.

Still, unless the enemy is a sunder specialist then is really hard to sunder the archer tank. And if the enemie is a sunder specialist then the archer tank is in the same position of everyone.

Liberty's Edge

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The Fighter will spend all his gold on his own magic items. While the Ranger has to equip his Companion too


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The black raven wrote:
The Fighter will spend all his gold on his own magic items. While the Ranger has to equip his Companion too

Small price to pay for utility, a flanking buddy and three extra attacks per round...

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Alexandros Satorum wrote:

So, so far we have.

Unmounted Almost-pounce
shatterspell

Perhaps having some feat chains at earlier levles. (like the whole hamatula strike+ greater grapple+ rapid grapple before level 10)

Shatterspell is not a thing Fighters get. It's a thing dwarves get, and it's just copying something that barbarians get.

Ilja wrote:
Actually, a 15th level human lore warden can have +8 vs all maneuvers, +23 vs sunder/disarm. That's just from class abilities and class-specific FCB.

I always hate seeing lore warden brought up in these discussions. It's an archetype from a splat book that was recently replaced and specifically left the lore warden out, and it's also something the designers of the game have specifically called out as poor design.


Ssalarn wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:

So, so far we have.

Unmounted Almost-pounce
shatterspell

Perhaps having some feat chains at earlier levles. (like the whole hamatula strike+ greater grapple+ rapid grapple before level 10)

Shatterspell is not a thing Fighters get. It's a thing dwarves get, and it's just copying something that barbarians get.

It also has an incredibly small number of uses per day and requires you to take two terrible pre-reqs.


Ssalarn wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:

So, so far we have.

Unmounted Almost-pounce
shatterspell

Perhaps having some feat chains at earlier levles. (like the whole hamatula strike+ greater grapple+ rapid grapple before level 10)

Shatterspell is not a thing Fighters get. It's a thing dwarves get, and it's just copying something that barbarians get.

To be fair it's a thing that Dwarf Fighters get.

You can add Teleport Tactician to the list as well. Much, much stronger at stopping teleports away than a Ranger would be.

Pin Down was mentioned as well. Again, convenient for stopping someone from just running away from you (or even repositioning to hit someone else who is nearby), and much much stronger than "Stand Still".

Liberty's Edge

Wiggz wrote:
The black raven wrote:
The Fighter will spend all his gold on his own magic items. While the Ranger has to equip his Companion too
Small price to pay for utility, a flanking buddy and three extra attacks per round...

shrug Fighters can have one too, for two feats (three if they want it to be druid level = character level) - and whatever else you may say, we can all agree fighters have feats to burn.


N. Jolly wrote:
DrDeth wrote:
chaoseffect wrote:

Throw in Superstition, a race with a favored class bonus to improve it, and a Ring of Evasion and you shrug off just about anything.

Including your teams Prayer spell, healing and so forth. Superstition is a trap on a good team.

If you're healing in battle, you're probably not in a good team. Having a character who can make basically every save against any magical effect is far better than most buffs they could receive.

I just...don't understand how anyone could call Supes a trap...like ever.

James Jacob's own games uses healing during combat a lot.

Yes, if you play 2 round rocket tag, then there's little use for healing and little time for buffs.

And yes, I meant haste, not prayer.


andreww wrote:
It also has an incredibly small number of uses per day and requires you to take two terrible pre-reqs.

Eh, I like Spellbreaker, unless you're giving all of your NPC casters so much of their casting stat that they can cast any spell defensively no matter what. But if you're doing that, you're running a world you probably shouldn't have any martials in regardless, because when your casters can literally wipe out a horde of Balors by themselves with no particular threat to them ... no martial in the game can compete.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Shisumo wrote:
Wiggz wrote:
The black raven wrote:
The Fighter will spend all his gold on his own magic items. While the Ranger has to equip his Companion too
Small price to pay for utility, a flanking buddy and three extra attacks per round...
shrug Fighters can have one too, for two feats (three if they want it to be druid level = character level) - and whatever else you may say, we can all agree fighters have feats to burn.

Except we don't agree on that, which is a big part of the point. Rangers get 5 bonus feats which skip pre-reqs, and they get some of the best feats earlier than the Fighter. They're also rewarded for investing in Wisdom and start out with two good saves instead of one. When the Fighter burns two feats to gain an animal companion, and two feats to shore up one of his weak saves, he's now 1 feat ahead of the Ranger (though really, the Ranger might still be a step ahead thanks to skipping pre-req feats). So now that you've "equalized" that portion of the playing field, the question becomes: Are Bravery, Armor Training, Weapon Training, Armor Mastery, and Weapon Mastery equivalent to Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Endurance, Favored Terrain, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Quarry, Camouflage, Improved Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Quarry, Master Hunter, 4 additional skill points a level, 5 additional class skills, and spellcasting.

I'm going to say, probably not.


Shisumo wrote:
The thing fighters have over rangers - and arguably over basically every other class in the game, with the possible exception of paladins - is that they can quite effectively fulfill their design niche without using anything except their class features. They are supposed to tank or do DPR or somewhere in between - and they get everything they need to do that in their class abilities alone. Meaning that they have their entire "standard" feat supply and however many skill points you feel like giving yours to do... whatever it is you want.

Wait, did you just say Fighters fulfill their design niche without using anything except their class features? Really? They're poor tanks and their combat potential is kinda "meh" because D&D combat is not just about two morons slugging into each other until one guy falls down. It's a crazy mix up of monsters with horrible powers, dragons breathing lightning, tactical skirmishes with everything ranging from orcs and goblins to sentient speaking armored gorillas, and even the world itself wants to kill you and take your candy.

Fighters suck at fighting. Their defenses are pretty bad. They fail at "lots of extra feats" because they have to spend all their normal feats trying to make up for deficiencies. Their feat-trading option doesn't work in practice.

Literally every time this topic comes up, it goes just like this:

Pro-Ranger: The ranger functions great at standard gameplay of 15 PB or greater, has this many class skills, this many skills, these utility powers, these good saving throws, evasion, lots of bonus feats they don't have to qualify for and get early, an animal companion, situational damage that can affect huge categories of enemies, in-class access to scrolls and wands and qualification for item creation feats, improved mobility in natural terrains, the ability to hide while being observed, and at higher levels has a re-usable resource that grants massive benefits vs a chosen target and allows you to auto-confirm critical hits against that target and it later becomes usable every 10 minutes, and with expanded material they can expend their spell slots to declare someone their favored enemy. When applicable mithral celestial plate is ideal though a mithral breasplate or celestial armor will serve a similar purpose with only about 3 AC less. The ranger has a few optional wondrous items and/or weapons that you might be interested in.

Pro-Fighter: Have 20+ PB, Max UMD, grab lots of wands, spend all your non-fighter feats on saving throw boosting feats, make sure you have these specific optional system traits, make sure you're a lore warden-weaponmaster-two-handed-mobile fighter (preferably at the same time), make sure you have a wayfinder and a specific ioun stone or die, gloves of dueling or bust, be a dwarf and take steel soul, get an 18 Intelligence so you can pretend to be a Ranger, become an addict to potions of fly because they grow on trees, complain about superstition, talk about mobility in plate armor like you got it from 1st level instead of having ACs that are the same as Barbarians and Rangers until around 8th, boast superior longevity while bemoaning others complaining about you being a resource sink, have every magic item ever while being unable to craft them effectively, talk about Master Craftsman and how being a Fighter makes you so awesome with it even though you can't spend fighter feats on it and sit on a useless feat for 2 levels before taking a feat that lets you craft a tiny fraction of the stuff the Ranger can with the same feat.

Quote:
Want to make a wand specialist fighter? No problem - a human can have Cha 8 and still get Dangerously Curious, Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus (UMD) for a total +9 to his roll at 1st level, a 50/50 shot at a wand. And since he's still got his Str 18, Dex 14 and Con 14 (20 pt buy) plus Power Attack, he's got plenty of damage and hit points to take care of business. A ranger, on the other hand, is "supposed" to be good at woodcraft, meaning he has to take Survival, Stealth, Handle Animal and so on - not to mention, of course, using his two racial feats for whatever the groundwork is for his combat style.

Deja Vu...

Liberty's Edge

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Ssalarn wrote:
I always hate seeing lore warden brought up in these discussions. It's an archetype from a splat book that was recently replaced and specifically left the lore warden out, and it's also something the designers of the game have specifically called out as poor design.

So if it was poor design why is it one of the most popular fighter archetypes currently out there? It gave them massively more utility and is kind of the bar for where a lot of players want the fighter to be power wise.

I guess i see it as an awesome option while the devs see it as giving the fighter something nice that was not in line with how they saw the fighter.


Oh and while I'm thinking about it...

Quote:
Want to make a wand specialist fighter? No problem - a human can have Cha 8 and still get Dangerously Curious, Magical Aptitude and Skill Focus (UMD) for a total +9 to his roll at 1st level, a 50/50 shot at a wand. And since he's still got his Str 18, Dex 14 and Con 14 (20 pt buy) plus Power Attack, he's got plenty of damage and hit points to take care of business. A ranger, on the other hand, is "supposed" to be good at woodcraft, meaning he has to take Survival, Stealth, Handle Animal and so on - not to mention, of course, using his two racial feats for whatever the groundwork is for his combat style.

Ignoring the "supposed to be good at" thing (since that argument is kind of a joke) let's actually look at this for real.

1. Rangers get +1/2 their level (min +1) to Survival skill checks to track, which means that they can drop 1 rank in the skill and probably forget about it if they want (1 rank with a 11 wisdom would still net them a take 10 of 15 when tracking immediately and it just gets better).

2. Stealth is a skill that everyone should have at least some appreciation of and it has lots of synergy with their high level abilities. Since the Ranger has 4 more skill points per level than the Fighter with the same Int and also gets +1/2 level on tracking and lots of situational skill modifiers when dealing with favored enemies plus lots of handy spells like longstrider (which is an effective +4 to Acrobatics checks for 1 hour / level), he can happily take this and enjoy not alerting every enemy within 100 ft. to his presence. :P

3. Rangers only needs Handle Animal if he's trying to solo-steam-roll low-level adventures or for his Animal Companion which he doesn't get until 4th level. However he gets an innate +4 bonus to the check when dealing with his animal companion, can use it as a free action, and only needs to be able to hit a DC 20 taking 10 to be able to train his animal companion for a wide variety of tasks (before counting the bonus tricks). That means that with a 5 Charisma (-3, dwarf ranger) the Ranger only needs 4 ranks and a masterwork tool to be able to take 10 and teach his companion literally anything he wants to.


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Terokai wrote:
I guess i see it as an awesome option while the devs see it as giving the fighter something nice that was not in line with how they saw the fighter.

If you look at the artwork in Pathfinder that involves Valeros it seems like their vision of the Fighter is the whipping boy of the group.


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SPCDRI wrote:
Ilja wrote:
Fighters are simple, and elegant because of it, and I hate that no one seems to appreciate that. Power Gamers be damned!
They are not simple. Barbarians are simple. They are not elegant. Paladins are elegant. They've been a gimp class since 3.0 Dungeons and Dragons. Their Pathfinderization is notably inferior to the Pathfinderization of Paladins, Rangers and Barbarians.

Fighters are most definitely not simple. They are one of the most daunting introductory classes because almost everything about what they can do save for a few numbers is located outside of their class and buried in chapters about feats with tons of prerequisites and subtypes (like how you can't take Toughness or Lightning Reflexes as a Fighter feat), and they are one of the easiest classes to screw up for a newbie as well because once selected their class features become locked in a sea of red tape if you've got even a basic feat chain started.

The people who do well with Fighters tend to either have tons of system mastery or had their characters made by someone with tons of system mastery.

I mean, let's say you're a Fighter. You're picking out some combat feats and you see Spirited Charge and you think "Wow, that's awesome" so you take Mounted Combat and Spirited Charge thinking you'll be this cool guy with a lance, and you buy a warhorse.

Then a while later you realize that while you and your enemies are getting way stronger, your horse isn't. It's still the same 2HD horse you had back at 1st level. Well, no, that's not actually true. It's actually the 6th horse you've dumped gold pieces into since the first five snuffed it hard (there was that time with the archers who shot Johnboy, then you put Nelly in armor, but there was that pit trap in that goblin camp, and poor Blanchy took a worg to the knee during that nighttime ambush, and you haven't even bothered naming the new one after Mr. Ed got BBQ'd by that fireball even when it made his save).

Unfortunately you also invested like 100% of your skill points into riding and training the damned thing...

Paizo Employee Design Manager

Terokai wrote:
Ssalarn wrote:
I always hate seeing lore warden brought up in these discussions. It's an archetype from a splat book that was recently replaced and specifically left the lore warden out, and it's also something the designers of the game have specifically called out as poor design.
So if it was poor design why is it one of the most popular fighter archetypes currently out there?

That's a question that answers itself. If something is so good that it's consistently chosen above any other option, there's an issue. I will say, the core issue is probably less with the Lore Warden and more with the Fighter, but it skews any consistent conversation because the Lore Warden is a splat book archetype that is just flat out better than the core Fighter or really any other core series Fighter option (I want to be really clear that I don't think the Lore Warden is game-breaking or anything, it just doesn't belong in a conversation about the Fighter because it takes the math of the core Fighter chassis and makes it squeal like a pig). Bringing it into a conversation about the Fighter creates an issue because the Lore Warden doesn't play by the same balance as every other Fighter. If the Lore Warden were actually representative of the Fighter's baseline, I'd have absolutely no problem with it.

AS SKR said:
* It gives up bravery +1 (which is worse than Iron Will, which is +2 on all will saves instead of just +1 vs. fear) for Combat Expertise (a useful full feat, and it doesn't even need to meet the prereqs)

* It gives up armor training 1 (which reduces ACP by 1 and increases max Dex by 1, which is mostly irrelevant because the lore warden doesn't use medium or heavy armor, so it's ACP/max Dex aren't much of a limitation) for a +2 bonus *all* CMB checks and to CMD, scaling up eventually to +8 (compare to any Improved maneuver feat, which give a +2 to *one* maneuver and negates the AOO... so this is basically half of *every* improved maneuver feat, but scales up the bonus to include the Greater maneuver plusses as well)

* It gives up armor training 2 (see above) for the ability to spend a standard action to get a +2 attack/damage bonus against a specific creature, so you're giving up a minor defensive ability for an offensive ability (a no-no)

* it gives up armor training 3 (see above), and gets the ability to make a skill check to turn a crit into a normal attack once per round (note that the fortification armor ability only gives a 75% chance of doing this and has a +5 plus value)

* its standard-action ability (above) improves to a swift action, in exchange for giving up armor training 4 (see above)

* it gives up armor mastery (this class is about not getting hit, so the DR 5/— isn't very important) at level 19 to get the ability to automatically confirm a crit once per round (compared to the fighter level 20 capstone, which does this but for only one type of weapon).

That very first CMB/CMD ability that makes the lore warden too good. All the other swaps are just extra gravy on a moist slab of turkey.


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Just because what he gave up was crap does not mean the Lore Warden is OP. It means that the base abilities he gave up were crap.

For the record, Combat expertise with no requirements is... eh, because every feat in the line also requires 13INT anyway, and by itself it's a pretty meh feat.

EDIT: Also, don't appeal to SKR of all people for authority. Like don't do it ever anyway, but if you must, don't do it with SKR.


Wiggz wrote:
The black raven wrote:
The Fighter will spend all his gold on his own magic items. While the Ranger has to equip his Companion too
Small price to pay for utility, a flanking buddy and three extra attacks per round...

Not to mention moving soft-cover that can be used to increase battlefield presence and protect your squishies. Oh, and they're a renewable resource (it only takes a day to get a new animal companion and they come with bonus tricks already). You also don't need to use much gear to make them highly survivable (they get significant natural armor bonuses, can wear some armor without penalty or proficiency, have good Fortitude and Reflex saves, Evasion, Devotion, and get significant ability score increases naturally).

The fact that the Ranger can also grab Craft Wondrous Item at 7th and Craft Magic Arms & Armor at 9th means that even if the Ranger decides to split his wealth equally between himself and his companion he's still just as fully geared as his Fighter-buddy.

Liberty's Edge

Ssalarn wrote:
Except we don't agree on that, which is a big part of the point. Rangers get 5 bonus feats which skip pre-reqs, and they get some of the best feats earlier than the Fighter. They're also rewarded for investing in Wisdom and start out with two good saves instead of one. When the Fighter burns two feats to gain an animal companion, and two feats to shore up one of his weak saves, he's now 1 feat ahead of the Ranger (though really, the Ranger might still be a step ahead thanks to skipping pre-req feats).

The statement "Most apples are red" is not in any way countered by the argument "Most bricks are red."

Ssalarn wrote:

So now that you've "equalized" that portion of the playing field, the question becomes: Are Bravery, Armor Training, Weapon Training, Armor Mastery, and Weapon Mastery equivalent to Favored Enemy, Track, Wild Empathy, Endurance, Favored Terrain, Woodland Stride, Swift Tracker, Evasion, Quarry, Camouflage, Improved Evasion, Hide in Plain Sight, Improved Quarry, Master Hunter, 4 additional skill points a level, 5 additional class skills, and spellcasting.

I'm going to say, probably not.

And since I didn't make any part of this argument, I'm not sure why it's relevant. My point is this, and only this: fighters have the resources to duplicate some of the ranger's schtick if they care to, because the cost is a resource they have in abundance. Arguments about how the ranger can simply buy one of the fighter's key class abilities are well advised to keep the reverse in mind as well.


LoneKnave wrote:

Just because what he gave up was crap does not mean the Lore Warden is OP. It means that the base abilities he gave up were crap.

For the record, Combat expertise with no requirements is... eh, because every feat in the line also requires 13INT anyway, and by itself it's a pretty meh feat.

EDIT: Also, don't appeal to SKR of all people for authority. Like don't do it ever anyway, but if you must, don't do it with SKR.

I'm still trying to figure out how a class that gives up armor proficiencies and armor training is 'all about not getting hit'... and can we all recognize that combat maneuvers are woefully overrated as a combat option?


LoneKnave wrote:
For the record, Combat expertise with no requirements is... eh, because every feat in the line also requires 13INT anyway, and by itself it's a pretty meh feat.

I may be wrong, but I thought I read that the designer intended for it to cover that 13 INT prerequisite, but forgot that it carried through to the Maneuver feats as well. I feel like I saw that sometime before, when the archetype was brought up.

EDIT: I'm wrong; was thinking about something else.

Paizo Employee Design Manager

LoneKnave wrote:

Just because what he gave up was crap does not mean the Lore Warden is OP. It means that the base abilities he gave up were crap.

For the record, Combat expertise with no requirements is... eh, because every feat in the line also requires 13INT anyway, and by itself it's a pretty meh feat.

EDIT: Also, don't appeal to SKR of all people for authority. Like don't do it ever anyway, but if you must, don't do it with SKR.

Just because you think he's a jerk (which he admittedly can be) doesn't mean he doesn't know as much, and has contributed as much, to this game as any designer or developer out there.

And I didn't say the Lore Warden was OP, I said it doesn't belong in a conversation about the Fighter because it is better than literally every other Fighter archetype, as well as the core class, and it's a splat book item that has been purposefully kept out of the core line. It's bad design in that it blatantly ignores the balance of the class it is adjusting and breaks all the design rules: trading out defensive abilities for offensive ones, providing scaling bonuses that completely outstrip anything the core chassis can dream of, etc.

If the core Fighter were balanced at the same level as the Lore Warden I would be totally cool with that. I've spent more time talking about the Fighter's issues than I have defending its strengths, and that's verifiable. But claiming that the Fighter is good or viable because the Lore Warden exists is misleading; there's no reason to play any Fighter archetype other than the Lore Warden, and its existence in a way prevents meaningful analysis of how flawed the Fighter actually is.

Liberty's Edge

Ashiel wrote:
Wait, did you just say Fighters fulfill their design niche without using anything except their class features? Really?

Sure did. I'll say it again, too. Fighters fulfill their design niche with just their class features. They are supposed to provide DPR and soak damage, and with nothing but their class features, they do both.

Ashiel wrote:
They're poor tanks and their combat potential is kinda "meh" because D&D combat is not just about two morons slugging into each other until one guy falls down.

Except it is, a substantial part of the time. You know this; there's certainly enough people on this board and elsewhere who complain about it enough.

Ashiel wrote:

Literally every time this topic comes up, it goes just like this:

Pro-Fighter: Have 20+ PB, Max UMD, grab lots of wands, spend all your non-fighter feats on saving throw boosting feats, make sure you have these specific optional system traits, make sure you're a lore warden-weaponmaster-two-handed-mobile fighter (preferably at the same time), make sure you have a wayfinder and a specific ioun stone or die, gloves of dueling or bust, be a dwarf and take steel soul, get an 18 Intelligence so you can pretend to be a Ranger, become an addict to potions of fly because they grow on trees, complain about superstition, talk about mobility in plate armor like you got it from 1st level instead of having ACs that are the same as Barbarians and Rangers until around 8th, boast superior longevity while bemoaning others complaining about you being a resource sink, have every magic item ever while being unable to craft them effectively, talk about Master Craftsman and how being a Fighter makes you so awesome with it even though you can't spend fighter feats on it and sit on a useless feat for 2 levels before taking a feat that lets you craft a tiny fraction of the stuff the Ranger can with the same feat.

Or maybe I was directly responding to this post?

And how come you skipped over the part of my post where I pointed out I was actually playing the fighter you seem to regard as a Schroedinger's?


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Ssalarn wrote:
LoneKnave wrote:

Just because what he gave up was crap does not mean the Lore Warden is OP. It means that the base abilities he gave up were crap.

For the record, Combat expertise with no requirements is... eh, because every feat in the line also requires 13INT anyway, and by itself it's a pretty meh feat.

EDIT: Also, don't appeal to SKR of all people for authority. Like don't do it ever anyway, but if you must, don't do it with SKR.

Just because you think he's a jerk (which he admittedly can be) doesn't mean he doesn't know as much, and has contributed as much, to this game as any designer or developer out there.

I have huge respect for a bunch of designers who are rude but are really, really competent at making their games.

Then there are people who go on record saying that (3.5)Natural spell is worth half as much as (3.5)Skill focus. Among other things.

These two categories for me do not overlap.


Ssalarn wrote:
Alexandros Satorum wrote:

So, so far we have.

Unmounted Almost-pounce
shatterspell

Perhaps having some feat chains at earlier levles. (like the whole hamatula strike+ greater grapple+ rapid grapple before level 10)

Shatterspell is not a thing Fighters get. It's a thing dwarves get, and it's just copying something that barbarians get.

Still, is something that a fighter can potentially do and rangers do not.

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