Two weapon fighting is only slightly less effective then 2 handing its a goofy idea from a real life perspective but awsome from a style perspective i say go for it for rule of cool, it wont cost you much damage wise and is a great image. If only there was a way to one handed great swords.
You might find your 'to-hit' bonus lagging behind the ideal bonuses needed to hit most of your enemies.
You will likely be more dependent on magic buffs and flanking than your average front liner.
you are in a class that lacks full BAB so you won't be making the gap up easily.
Lastly, you will probably do less damage than a barbarian who didnt take the exotic proficiency, and merely two-hand swings the same sword and utilizes the power attack feat.
If you are willing to deal with all or this in order to look cool.. by all means, do it.
From an "optimization" standpoint, it's not ideal, but from a "this looks fun, will it work at all?" I'd say go for it!
Your character may take sick pleasure in attacking with 2 big swords, even though he knows doing so is unwieldy and probably not smart, strictly speaking. I can imagine an inquisitor like this being very intimidating and bold, or perhaps his weapon choice is a grim/calculating way of scaring enemies who fear he is irrational/insane.
This is a Tengu?
From an "optimization" standpoint, it's not ideal, but from a "this looks fun, will it work at all?" I'd say go for it!
Your character may take sick pleasure in attacking with 2 big swords, even though he knows doing so is unwieldy and probably not smart, strictly speaking. I can imagine an inquisitor like this being very intimidating and bold, or perhaps his weapon choice is a grim/calculating way of scaring enemies who fear he is irrational/insane.
This is a Tengu?
The dude's swinging two honkin' swords around, I have in mind a guy who maybe enjoys his job a little too much.
Which is, of course, a great way to play an Inquisitor. He should be a little unhinged, he should have a little Michael Keaton in him.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey PF People,
Im an inquisitor and have proficiency cause of race with Bastard swords. Got 16 strength. So lvl 1 ive got a -1 to hit with both(including TWF). Is this worth pursuing? I wanna make it be a fun guy, and i thought this would be a good idea. Let me know.Primus
It's fine to pursue, but you'll likely find you're not as effective while TWF for at least a level or two.
If you find you're having trouble hitting, just attack with one. Then your -1 jumps up to a +3. And, if you plan on just attacking with one at some point, you can always two-hand your BS for that extra point of damage.
Nothing wrong with your idea. Some might say it's suboptimal, but who cares? If you like the idea, play it. Just know when to not attack with both weapons. Sometimes that extra +2 or +4 to hit can make a huge difference.
While I am not one to usually stomp of creative fluffy-ness, but would this not lead to a -4/-8 to hit penalties because they aren't light weapons?
|
Khaz, this is a tengu. And to clarify for some of you who may not have caught it, tengus are automatically proficient with the bastard sword. And yes, if it really doesnt work ill ditch one, and go two handed or even just get a lighter weapon(dogslicer or something, then both are +1) in the other hand. Seems like this will be alright. Ive never played with an inquisitor, and his stats are
Str: 16
Dex: 18
Con: 11
Int: 7
Wis: 16
Cha: 7
I dont think i need intelligence or charisma for much of anything on a character like this, so this seems fair? tengus are +2 dex, +2 wis, -2 con. Dont like that con, but I havent got any special race boons so im dealing with it cause other tengu features make it valuable enough.
Primus
While I am not one to usually stomp of creative fluffy-ness, but would this not lead to a -4/-8 to hit penalties because they aren't light weapons?I though it was -4/-4 with twf feat.
It is, but that's still very painful on a class with 3/4 BAB and limited daily uses on class abilities that improve his attack bonus. And TWF is very feat intensive, on a class that doesn't get bonus combat feats. You have to spend another feat to make Bane apply to both weapons. Your damage will suffer as you can't afford to Power Attack on top of those TWF penalties.
I just can't recommend this. If you're married to two weapon fighting, use a light weapon or shield in the off hand. Otherwise use it two handed. Take Power Attack and spend all those feats on something more fun than missing constantly.
look into what you can do with Solo Tactics, those teamwork feats can be pretty helpful at times, like outflank and precise strike seem to be right up this guys mode of operation, helps with your to hit problem and adds damage. Plus you have judgments to help bolster your to hit. I say go for it
|
|
Well -4 would be right, but Ive got +3 strength mod. I wasnt going to keep up with ITWF and GTWF because i feel like that is way too much negatives. and Imbicatus, you are wrong(at least partially) on the wakizashis. It'd be the same to go with Bast Sword and wakizashi or similar. Unless that extra crit number is so important(can be/is, but unless its keen, i prefer 1d10[19-20x2] over 1d6[18-20x2].) And dual keen bastard swords would be the coolest crap ever lol. Ill see as i go, but for the time being, you guys have been helpful and im sticking to this.
One last thing, are there any other feats useful to help me with this? maybe weapon finesse since ive got 18 dex and plan to raise that.
Thanks
Primus
The penalty to hit will rapidly ruin your level of fun doing this. If one of them was a Sun Sword and counted as a short sword, you could do this with only the -2 penalty.
It's been proven repeatedly that the -2 to hit from using two weapons is a killer in the damage race, especially vs a 2h weapon.
Here's your problem:
It takes a full attack to get off two attacks.
You are -4 to hit. If we use Power Attack as a baseline vs a 2h sword, that's -8 damage per weapon you are NOT getting.
It takes you twice as much money to get a better weapon.
You get normal Str, and .5 Str on your off-hand.
Yes, you'd get Bane on both of them. it doesn't matter if you don't hit with them!
If you wield just ONE Bastard sword in both hands, going to 1h if you decide you need a shield, you gain the following.
You pick up the equivalent of +12 or +8 damage, since you don't have -4 to hit.
You get Str x 1.5 for every attack, so another +2-3 to damage.
You get full damage on standard move and attacks.
You only have to pay for upgrading one weapon.
You can slap on a shield for higher AC against a tough foe, and won't be penalized for using a shield when you do so.
Thematically, it's quite cool. Realistically, you're going to be flailing around with your swords, not hitting anything, and not look or feel cool.
==Aelryinth
|
|
The penalty to hit will rapidly ruin your level of fun doing this. If one of them was a Sun Sword and counted as a short sword, you could do this with only the -2 penalty.
It's been proven repeatedly that the -2 to hit from using two weapons is a killer in the damage race, especially vs a 2h weapon.
Here's your problem:
It takes a full attack to get off two attacks.
You are -4 to hit. If we use Power Attack as a baseline vs a 2h sword, that's -8 damage per weapon you are NOT getting.
It takes you twice as much money to get a better weapon.
You get normal Str, and .5 Str on your off-hand.Yes, you'd get Bane on both of them. it doesn't matter if you don't hit with them!
If you wield just ONE Bastard sword in both hands, going to 1h if you decide you need a shield, you gain the following.
You pick up the equivalent of +12 or +8 damage, since you don't have -4 to hit.
You get Str x 1.5 for every attack, so another +2-3 to damage.
You get full damage on standard move and attacks.
You only have to pay for upgrading one weapon.
You can slap on a shield for higher AC against a tough foe, and won't be penalized for using a shield when you do so.Thematically, it's quite cool. Realistically, you're going to be flailing around with your swords, not hitting anything, and not look or feel cool.
==Aelryinth
I understand this and thanks, but maybe reword it with a -1 instead of -4 in mind. and i have a decent grasp on this cause i was ridiculous enough to try to dual wield crossbows as a sorcerer.
If you are having too much trouble hitting you can just switch out the off hand to a lite weapon, it's not as cool but will work better. Flanking and any other to hit bonuses will be your best friend. I don't really put inquisiter as a front liner so with flanking, bane, and some self buffs you should be fine and helping the fighter/barb/whatever too.
Edit: i forgot getting the feat that lets you do full damage on off hand attacks is a must unless im remembering a 3.5 feat
When I say -4 I mean normal TH -4, not 'base -4'.
So with a 2h you'd be at +3, 2Wpn, -1. That's easily a 50% swing in the ability to hit something at your level (avg AC of 16, you go from hitting on a 13 (40%) to hitting on a 17 (20%). Ouch, to say the least. And it just gets worse as you level and your Str and Power Attack go up.
Medium BAB doesn't help matters, either. Sure, if you do manage to hit, you'll do great. But those rounds you whiff...those are going to start weighing on you as they add up, while the full BAB, high Str, one weapon guy next to you is hitting, critting, confirming crits, and doing mondo damage with fewer swings consistently.
And the bastard sword is not a finessable weapon. A Wakizashi is. Dual Wakis mean both also benefit from Weapon Focus, if you choose to take it.
==Aelryinth
|
|
Guys, when this just doesnt seem to work, I will just flip over to using B Sword and wakizashi. I dont see me wanting many feats to help the inquisitor side very much soo yeah. but maybe you guys could suggest useful Inq feats, cause im a know-nothing with divine casters, but i would like to mess around with inflict/cure wounds and similar.
Primus
When I say -4 I mean normal TH -4, not 'base -4'.
So with a 2h you'd be at +3, 2Wpn, -1. That's easily a 50% swing in the ability to hit something at your level (avg AC of 16, you go from hitting on a 13 (40%) to hitting on a 17 (20%). Ouch, to say the least. And it just gets worse as you level and your Str and Power Attack go up.
Medium BAB doesn't help matters, either. Sure, if you do manage to hit, you'll do great. But those rounds you whiff...those are going to start weighing on you as they add up, while the full BAB, high Str, one weapon guy next to you is hitting, critting, confirming crits, and doing mondo damage with fewer swings consistently.
And the bastard sword is not a finessable weapon. A Wakizashi is. Dual Wakis mean both also benefit from Weapon Focus, if you choose to take it.
==Aelryinth
It's still an extra swing so 5% to hit twice 36% to hit atleast once and 64% to miss each hit is less damage but its not nearly half as likely to hit and on a standard attack he doesn't take twf penalties
You have a total attack penalty of -1 right now. You already have a 75% chance of missing an opponent with 15 AC - That's 14 Dex and Studded Leather Armor. Or 10 Dex and Chainmail.
This chance will not improve by much, if at all as you level up, because of the way enemy AC scales.
Guys, when this just doesnt seem to work, I will just flip over to using B Sword and wakizashi. I dont see me wanting many feats to help the inquisitor side very much soo yeah. but maybe you guys could suggest useful Inq feats, cause im a know-nothing with divine casters, but i would like to mess around with inflict/cure wounds and similar.
Primus
Reach spell to turn your cure spells in to ranged touch attacks is very helpful for +1 spell level it can save lives
Let's go with the AC 14 Goblin.
2h guy with Weapon Focus, 16 Str, 1 mwk weapon, vs 2wpn guy with TWF.
2h Guy hits goblin on a 9 or better for d10+4 dmg, avg 9.5, ignoring crits. That's 60% of 9.5, or about 5.5 dmg/rd.
TWF guy hits the goblin on 15 or better, for d10+3 and d10+1. That's 30% of 8.5, or 3 dmg, and 30% of 7.5, or 2 dmg...so, 5 dmg/rd.
However, he only gets that when he gets a full attack. Otherwise, he's just swinging with one weapon for 3 dmg/rd.
If the 2h guy gets power attack, he's at -1 for +3 dmg. 55% of 12.5 dmg is about 7 pts.
If 2wpn guy gets Power Attack, he's at -1 for +2, so 25% of 10.5, or 3, and 25% of 9.5, or 2...his damage actually doesn't change, because he's missing so much.
And it just gets worse with levels. The only way TWF works is with massive amounts of bonus damage that apply to every attack, like, say, Sneak attack damage. Unfortunately, the only class that gets this is the rogue, and he has Medium BAB with nothing to help him hit more, so his damage sucks.
==Aelryinth
You have a total attack penalty of -1 right now. You already have a 75% chance of missing an opponent with 15 AC - That's 14 Dex and Leather Armor. Or 10 Dex and Chainmail.
This chance will not improve by much, if at all as you level up.
With 2 attacks it's 43.75 to hit once not optimal but not 25% either the build will never compair to a 2 hand build but being less then the best because its cool is fine at higher levels the cost of better weapons will start to add up and eventually he may be forced to switch to a smaller off hand or find a sun blade but he should be fine for early levels
He has to be full attacking to get those two attacks. He'd have a better attack bonus and better damage with a two hander, and as a bonus he wouldn't have to worry about getting full attacks until level 8.
Let's go with the AC 14 Goblin.
2h guy with Weapon Focus, 16 Str, 1 mwk weapon, vs 2wpn guy with TWF.
2h Guy hits goblin on a 9 or better for d10+4 dmg, avg 9.5, ignoring crits. That's 60% of 9.5, or about 5.5 dmg/rd.
TWF guy hits the goblin on 15 or better, for d10+3 and d10+1. That's 30% of 8.5, or 3 dmg, and 30% of 7.5, or 2 dmg...so, 5 dmg/rd.
However, he only gets that when he gets a full attack. Otherwise, he's just swinging with one weapon for 3 dmg/rd.
If the 2h guy gets power attack, he's at -1 for +3 dmg. 55% of 12.5 dmg is about 7 pts.
If 2wpn guy gets Power Attack, he's at -1 for +2, so 25% of 10.5, or 3, and 25% of 9.5, or 2...his damage actually doesn't change, because he's missing so much.And it just gets worse with levels. The only way TWF works is with massive amounts of bonus damage that apply to every attack, like, say, Sneak attack damage. Unfortunately, the only class that gets this is the rogue, and he has Medium BAB with nothing to help him hit more, so his damage sucks.
==Aelryinth
His standard attack would be higher you dont take a attack penalty just for having a weapon in your off hand so his standard attack would be higher to hit. Power attack is a poor option for a two weapon fighting build so that lets him trad power attack for twf and then he can grap weapon focus too upping his damage some too. Comparing him to the best damage build and getting 85% of the power seems fine to me
|
|
Man. Would having 2 B Swords out but only attacking with one give me the normal +3 to hit? Cause that would give me some convenient situational options. Also if that doesnt work i could just sheath one on the spot. the only difference is i dont get the 2 handing B sword bonus which i dont care about for the time being. And maybe i should just go with Wakizashi and B Sword. How well would that work for me? +1 to hit for both. And imbicatus, I understand that'd be best, but I do alot for cool. and eh not such a fan of biting and clawing people.
Primus
Man. Would having 2 B Swords out but only attacking with one give me the normal +3 to hit? Cause that would give me some convenient situational options. Also if that doesnt work i could just sheath one on the spot. the only difference is i dont get the 2 handing B sword bonus which i dont care about for the time being. And maybe i should just go with Wakizashi and B Sword. How well would that work for me? +1 to hit for both. And imbicatus, I understand that'd be best, but I do alot for cool. and eh not such a fan of biting and clawing people.
Primus
Like i said you only take the penalty if you make an off hand attack so you can make one attack at without the -4 and if you need to you can drop the extra sword as a free action 2 hand the other as a free action and get the extra str to damage if you come across a particularly tough baddie
Sheathing uses up your move action, so that will be a pain in combat too. Try to get a Glove of Storing so you can still two-hand it on standard action attacks, and attacks of opportunity.
Using a light off-hand weapon will be a lot better. Two Weapon Fighting still has a lot of problems, but it's not as bad as dual one-handers.
One other thing, if you're not planning to take Improved or Greater TWF (good call), switch your Strength and Dex stats.
@ Primus - you'd asked about Weapon Finesse as a possible feat, but I don't think that'll work if you double up on the Bastard Swords since they aren't light and they don't have a specific finessable-clause like the rapier.
Extended Bane from Ultimate Magic is a GREAT Inquisitor specific feat though. Bane is a super powerful class ability, and being able to have it last multiple rounds per use is fantastic.
Judgement Surge is another inquisitor specific feat that I think can be really, really helpful.
Branded for Retribution is pretty neat too, letting you share your Bane ability with your party in a limited sense.
Most of all, I hope you come up with a character you enjoy! A double bastard sword wielding inquisitor sounds like a lot of fun! =)
One other thing, I can't believe I forgot. You're a spellcaster, and hands holding weapons can't cast spells with somatic components. So you're either using move actions to draw and sheath every time, dropping a weapon, or waiting on a Glove of Storing - And who knows when or if you'll get one?
That's the ultimate decider right there. Use a two handed weapon, or if you must two weapon fight, use either a two Bladed sword or a weapon and light shield (which leaves a hand free).
|
Why not just use a Two-bladed sword instead then? You are proficient in it, it does only one point of damage less than the bastard swords, is a light weapon so you don't have twf penalties, and is a two handed weapon so you don't have to waste an action re-sheathing your sword if you need to just use one hand.
|
|
Sheathing uses up your move action, so that will be a pain in combat too. Try to get a Glove of Storing so you can still two-hand it on standard action attacks, and attacks of opportunity.
Using a light off-hand weapon will be a lot better. Two Weapon Fighting still has a lot of problems, but it's not as bad as dual one-handers.
One other thing, if you're not planning to take Improved or Greater TWF (good call), switch your Strength and Dex stats.
I guess switching those is a good idea, but i had Dex mainly cause i wanted the AC and all that dex is helpful with. And tengus have that bonus. I didnt want to mess with crazy races/race archetypes. And yeah spellcasting :D ... That. Well yeah i would probably be sheathing and unsheathing every 2 rounds. I mean, inquisitors arent so spell-heavy. And imb two bladed sword is heavy two handed?? Does it get two attacks just cause its double weapon?
Primus
|
|
One other thing, I can't believe I forgot. You're a spellcaster, and hands holding weapons can't cast spells with somatic components. So you're either using move actions to draw and sheath every time, dropping a weapon, or waiting on a Glove of Storing - And who knows when or if you'll get one?
That's the ultimate decider right there. Use a two handed weapon, or if you must two weapon fight, use either a two Bladed sword or a weapon and light shield (which leaves a hand free).
And uhm, i coould always just go with still spell. +1 level but dont have to screw around during the rounds.
Inquisitors aren't spell-heavy now, but they will be later on. Especially if you find yourself casting something on the first round as a reaction to what you're fighting.
Still Spell is not a good option. You're already a 2/3 caster, adding +1 to everything will only put you further behind. And it's another feat you can scarcely afford.
Dex isn't as important to you because you can wear Medium Armor, and unless it's Mithral you'll be at its Max Dex with just 16. As an Inquisitor you get Wisdom to Initiative on top of Dex. And Reflex is, generally speaking, the least important save.
Two Bladed Sword is a decent option since you have proficiency for free. That will give you the best of both worlds, you can hit with both ends if you can full attack, use one end two-handed on standard / opportunity attacks, and take a hand off to cast a spell without dropping the weapon.
One other thing, I can't believe I forgot. You're a spellcaster, and hands holding weapons can't cast spells with somatic components. So you're either using move actions to draw and sheath every time, dropping a weapon, or waiting on a Glove of Storing - And who knows when or if you'll get one?
That's the ultimate decider right there. Use a two handed weapon, or if you must two weapon fight, use either a two Bladed sword or a weapon and light shield (which leaves a hand free).
Wow i cant belive i forgot about that, not having a hand to cast with is a huge draw back. Get weapon cords so you can drop your weapon and get it back more easily, i think its only a swift action it eats actions but its better then nothing
|
|
And imb two bladed sword is heavy two handed?? Does it get two attacks just cause its double weapon?
Primus
It's a double weapon so it is treated as either a one handed and a light off-hand weapon or a two handed weapon as you choose.
Double: You can use a double weapon to fight as if fighting with two weapons, but if you do, you incur all the normal attack penalties associated with fighting with two weapons, just as if you were using a one-handed weapon and a light weapon. You can choose to wield one end of a double weapon two-handed, but it cannot be used as a double weapon when wielded in this way—only one end of the weapon can be used in any given round.
It gets two attacks if you choose to fight as if you were using two weapon fighting. If you need to move and attack just once, you can treat it as a two handed weapon, getting 1.5 str bonus.
Weapon Cords have been nerfed to a move action, because Gunslingers were abusing them.
Even if your DM keeps them as Swift Actions it's still on the bottleneck with Bane and Judgement.
Weapon Cords have been nerfed to a move action, because Gunslingers were abusing them.
:( if only they had just made guns normal attacks rather then touch attacks they could have saved so many problems not that weapon cords wernt alittle cheesy to begin with.
Anyway stay away from metamagic feats you wont have enough feats or spells to make them worth it
Why not just use a Two-bladed sword instead then? You are proficient in it, it does only one point of damage less than the bastard swords, is a light weapon so you don't have twf penalties, and is a two handed weapon so you don't have to waste an action re-sheathing your sword if you need to just use one hand.
This. THIS.
This guy has it right. You can hold the weapon in one hand when casting spells, then go back to swinging the next round without penalty.
Plus, you get to be Darth Maul if you ever get red Brilliant Energy blades. Don't you want to be Darth Maul?
Oh so dont bother with still spell? that would save me a lot of actions.
In my opinion it just takes too much to use an entire spell level on a partial caster is a huge set back and you will be starved for feats as is if you like the double sword thing go with it its much easier and will be more effective not quite as cool as going double bastard swords but not uncool in its own right
As a spontaneous caster, metamagic increases cast times to full round actions. That's on top of sacrificing higher level spell slots for lower level spells.
judgement surge is a great feat and could really help with a the two bastard sword potential hitting issue.
secondly, wouldn't over think the casting thing, if you are choosing to dual wield I am thinking that you will Buff before combat.
easy buff at level 1
bless, is a +1, divine favor is a +1, magic weapon +1(x2), judgement, and flank, now you are at a +6 to hit, each hand
is there a bard or cavalier in your party...the bonuses come, and the bonus scale to a point
There is a reason why for a while that a cleric was the best fighter in the game. and you are a just as good as one of those
so what i am thinking, is your character, when it wants to bring the wrath of his god down to a pesky infidel...he buffs up and draws both blades. when he is just mowing through minions, single sword
scribe scroll is a feat worth looking at since you are kind of spell light and may need multiple buffs a fight,
magic weapon oil is cheap for early level play.
also, don't be afraid to get creative with magic items, you can make sheaths that cast greater magic weapon at 13th level once a day for 15,600 gp, or if you want 16 hours, 19,200...that is a plus 4 weapon on the cheap my friend
for lower level play, recommend a scabbard of vigor, 1800 gp and great item for one fight a day when your out of buffs or you just need that extra pop for a 3-5 rounds to get some baddies down.
30k can also get you pale green prism ioun stone, if you find yourself still lacking
character is more then feats, its a some of a whole...look at all the parts and don't listen to all not optimal...flavor counts
if you are looking for meta magic feats, take them, or look into rods of meta magic..normal or lesser is all you would need, and it seems to be a reasonable piece of treasure that pops up from time to time