As such, the onus of proof is on the person insisting that the efreeti's HD are somehow giving it the ability to cash wish.:/
...Well, perhaps I have not made my position thoroughly clear, because I don't seem to recognize it in your post.
My position is that the incomplete/missing rules as relating to special ability advancement give the DM a fairly broad carte blanche to rule on specific instances of such. That's probably the intent, tbh: to just bat it to the DM instead of trying to write a universal rule.
I'm not actually insisting that special abilities must always have a certain relationship to racial HD advancement. I am saying that ruling whether they do or do not falls to the purview of a DM for any specific game, because the rulebook says "um... maybe?"
I was mostly making an open statement to no one in particular, though it was spurred most heavily by some mixed posts that are getting too close to the forbidden argument (which actually pops up pretty frequently).
Basically, if your argument amounts to "But it doesn't say it doesn't" or something similar, you're on really shaky ground. When I read "Well the rules don't say that the X creature's SLAs AREN'T divorced from HD", I feel an overwhelming urge to facepalm so hard that I'd fit in with Dullahan.
"Well the rules don't say my human can't breath fire like an ancient gold wyrm so..."
Heh, it sure seemed to be a direct reference to the posts I wrote about proof and such, but okay :p
To glance at the rule again,
Adding racial Hit Dice to a monster is a similar process to building a monster from scratch. As additional Hit Dice are added, other abilities increase in power as well. Additional Hit Dice usually results in better attack bonuses, saves, hit points, and skills, as well as more feats. It can also include additional spellcasting capability and other powers.
I do think that
'the rules say I can, but don't say when or how'
is different from
'the rules don't say I can't'
If the rules were completely silent on the issue then I would be in agreement with you guys. As it is, the last line is there, but that is all she wrote.
And again, this is a section for adding racial HD specifically, it isn't a reference to drow or aasimar or whatever that advance by class levels.
So yeah, the basic thrust of this does strike me as "by saying that special abilities can improve, but with no clarification, we are batting it over to the DM to determine advanced monster's special abilities."
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I agree btw that wishes are half the point of having genies in the rulebook.
And just to digress, I will say it's pretty strange that the most iconic method of doing so, the efreeti bottle, is hands down awful compared to the others.
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I could use Simulacrum to make Solars, horribly fail my disguise check, and still have simulacrums of solars. Hell, I could even then, use Shape Simulacrum to change how my Simulacrum looks and make them look like pretty dollies and give them to people as gifts, only for them not to realize they've been given murder machines under my control.
The paladin gets an 8th level spell at spell level 4 that I can recall off the top of my head. The summoner is far from the only to get those antics.
But the summoner is by far the worst offender.
The Summoner should have been a full caster. I hope Unchained recognizes this.
You're absolutely right. It should have been a wizard archetype, not a class.
The Summoner should have been a full caster. I hope Unchained recognizes this.You're absolutely right. It should have been a wizard archetype, not a class.
This would have the unusual effect of making it both 1. More powerful. and 2. Less likely for people to complain about. Since for some reason I don't see Druids getting the kind of knee-jerk cries of OP that I see Summoners getting.
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This would have the unusual effect of making it both 1. More powerful. and 2. Less likely for people to complain about. Since for some reason I don't see Druids getting the kind of knee-jerk cries of OP that I see Summoners getting.The Summoner should have been a full caster. I hope Unchained recognizes this.You're absolutely right. It should have been a wizard archetype, not a class.
The reason the summoner bugs me is they are effectively a full caster. The majority of their powerhouse spells don't even care about saving throw DCs so having them in lower level spell slots only means that they get cheaper metamagic rod returns (never needing to spend for greater rods as lesser and normal rods work great for all of their spells).
Couple this with the fact they are a 3/4 BAB class that can comfortably wear armor and lay down pain alongside their eidolon (a lot of those buff spells like haste that they put on their minion work on them just as well and sometimes with no additional actions of casting needed). Contrary to what many would pretend, summoners are no worse off in the "let's beat ass" club than clerics are (and even have access to their own in-house buffs like Aspect and Greater Aspect which allow them things like Improved Natural Armor, Pounce, Ability Increase, Energy Attacks, Energy Immunity, Limbs (Hands), Shadow Form, Weapon Proficiency, Damage Reduction, Blindsight, Spell Resistance (11 + level, doesn't block the summoner's spells). And of course, you can walk around with several of these active via Aspect or Greater Aspect, or drop any of them on your eidolon as needed with the evolution surge spells. Having a summoner with 4 arms and Multiweapon Fighting, 4 legs, Pounce, haste, greater heroism (w/ courageous), overland flight, alter self, and stoneskin means it's not the eidolon you need to worry about (no that's a joke, you still need to worry about it too).
Between them and their eidolon they have an utterly massive skill variety (the eidolon's skills + the summoner's skills), and the summoner can use a wand of lesser evolution surge (or learn it themselves if absolutely necessary) to drop things like +8 racial modifiers to skills on an as-needed basis.
Their eidolon itself is quite strong in its own right (even without dedicating magic items to it) and is expendable (as opposed to another PC who is probably not expendable, hopefully), after which they can pick another minion to have around with their SLAs that scale with their level and can be used frequently throughout the day (and then there's summon eidolon, a 2nd level spell begging for wand usage that can bring your eidolon back kicking and screaming along with an additional +4 Strength and Constitution from Augment summoning).
Their action economy is top notch. In addition to having a fast summoning SLA when needed, they get at least 2 characters' worth of actions per round (and most will agree that eidolons are a step above things like the druid's animal companion or the wizard's familiars*).
They have a ton of spells that seem to make no sense for their specialization (especially lots of illusion spells) that also include the most powerful spells in the game like magic jar and simulacrum.
Eidolons also make good magical item artisans (minor magic nets them a CL equal to their HD for 1 evolution point, start grabbing item creation feats and if you really want, drop a 1 point evolution for +8 spellcraft) which can help you fund your habits or work faster in tandem. It doesn't really cost them anything major in terms of power (if anything it makes them stronger). +8 to Use Magic Device is a good idea too, so that they can use the wands that you create or buy.
Summoners start out strong and get stronger, and have the same end-game campaign-snapping power that arcane full-casters do, all in a nice neat little package that's pro-rod friendly. Unless you also house-rule the rules for purchasing items, they are even better (because a lot of great summoner spells are wand-friendly, even spells that you can't usually put on wands).
EDIT: To put it another way there isn't very much a wizard can do that's really insane that a summoner cannot also do. Meanwhile I think Summoners are better than PF Druids at the gishy-side of things as they beat their animal companions and summoning potential into the dirt, and they have access to some really snazzy gish opportunities without explicitly being anchored to wild-shape.
EDIT 2: Ex'd Ability Increase. I forgot that it's uniquely disallowed from Aspect (not a big deal to me since it's actually one of the weakest things I listed :P).
The eidolon ability + full casting is broken and is what they have now.
Fixed that for you.
You're a little off base there.
Fast Study allows a wizard to prepare spells in a minimum of 1 minute.
Time Stutter buys you an extra move and swift action (that can't be used to affect other creatures) and denies you the ability to use your standard action that round to affect anyone else.
It requires your standard action to activate, and it gives you a single round of apparent time. Meaning you aren't gaining any standard actions from activating it.
And time stop prevents you from affecting anyone else with your attacks or spells while it's active.
...are you serious?
Okay, order of operations.
Normal Round:
Standard Action - Consumed activating Time Stutter
Move Action - Available
Swift Action - Available
Single Round of Apparent Time (with restricted actions):
Standard Action - Available
Move Action - Available
Swift Action - Available
You still have only a single standard action that can be spent doing anything other than activating Time Stutter. The net effect, as I stated, is that your standard action (the one during the round of apparent time) can't be used to affect anyone else. You also gain a move action and a swift action, that likewise cannot be used to affect anyone else.
Real time stop grants d4+1 rounds of apparent time. That is a minimum of two, meaning that you will always gain at least one standard action from doing so, and be able to complete summon monster spells (which are a 1 round action) before it ends. Time Stutter only lasts 1 round ever.
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EDIT: To put it another way there isn't very much a wizard can do that's really insane that a summoner cannot also do. Meanwhile I think Summoners are better than PF Druids at the gishy-side of things as they beat their animal companions and summoning potential into the dirt, and they have access to some really snazzy gish opportunities without explicitly being anchored to wild-shape.How about time stop at level 10?
Doesn't exist.
Standard action spell prep?
Once per day.
These are feats for wizards.
Neither of which contribute to the campaign shattering wtf-ness that is wizards that summoners can do just fine.
Not needing huge diamonds or any particular spell component is another wizard exclusive.
Are you talking about blood money? If you are, blood money isn't necessary for wizards to break stuff and by proxy isn't for summoners either. Having infinite money is as good as not needing money (for arcane casters, either is usually an option).
Scroll through the arcane discoveries sometime. Wizards can take them in the place of normal feats. I built a wizard who took nothing but discoveries and made my GM wtf plenty.
I find most of the discoveries nice or interesting but rarely that amazing. Time stutter for example doesn't really give you much of a leg up in terms of action economy sans moving and stuff. If combined with a quickrunner's shirt you could do something pretty cool, but since it takes a standard action to activate (Sp) and gives 1 round of actions you're actually unlikely to be getting a lot more in casting potential, and it's limites to 1-3 uses per day (10th, 15th, and 20th).
All in all it's...not that amazing. Especially since you can't affect anyone with anything during a time stop and you aren't getting any additional standard actions. It's cute, it's got some uses, but it's seriously not that amazing.
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So yes, rule-breaking/dishonesty aside, Summoners are capable of doing the gamebreaking shenanigans of full arcane casters while being very adept at beating arse like 3/4 casters while also having a pet minion that rounds out their skill retinue in a major way while also being comparable to an additional PC in their own right (albeit not usually a great one, their ability to be recycled and expendable means they don't have to be).
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So yes, rule-breaking/dishonesty aside, Summoners are capable of doing the gamebreaking shenanigans of full arcane casters while being very adept at beating arse like 3/4 casters while also having a pet minion that rounds out their skill retinue in a major way while also being comparable to an additional PC in their own right (albeit not usually a great one, their ability to be recycled and expendable means they don't have to be).
The Eidolon has balancing issues, too. They just pale in comparison to the spell list of the Summoner. Were the Eidolon a martial class, PFS input would have already nerfed it to the ground.
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So yes, rule-breaking/dishonesty aside, Summoners are capable of doing the gamebreaking shenanigans of full arcane casters while being very adept at beating arse like 3/4 casters while also having a pet minion that rounds out their skill retinue in a major way while also being comparable to an additional PC in their own right (albeit not usually a great one, their ability to be recycled and expendable means they don't have to be).The Eidolon has balancing issues, too. They just pale in comparison to the spell list of the Summoner. Were the Eidolon a martial class, PFS input would have already nerfed it to the ground.
Probably true. Paizo tends to really hate on martials for some reason. :(
All too often I see people acting like the summoner is some sort of gimped 1/2 BAB class hiding behind their not that amazing pet while suffering so much for only having 6th level spells unlike those mean full casters, especially those druids that are summoner+!
When in reality the eidolon eats the animal companions of druids and shits out gummie bears and rainbows, while the summoner happily rips the heads of his enemies with his multi-weapon-fighting hasted arcane striking attack routine while splitting damage between him and his eidolon and resummoning his eidolon when it dies (if you kill his eidolon or his minions it means you're probably wasting your actions), all the while having what is essentially 9th level spellcasting discounted into 6th level slots making them cheaper for item creation, purchase, and metamagic rods. Coupled with magical options that include a highly buffed summon monster I-IX, simulacrum, gate, planar binding, magic jar, most of the best buffs in the game, most of the best CC spells, most of the best defensive spells in the game.
He fights like a cleric, has a martial for a minion, casts like a wizard, and skills like a bard (because his skills + eidolon's skills plus the ability to reshape and/or drop evolutions onto his eidolon when needed makes him exceptionally versatile at skill use as well).
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So, uh, anyone mention my history with this (the OP topic, not summoners)? No? (No, they haven't.)
I have to say, that it worked out great the few times it's come up (both as a GM and as a player).
One of them we house-ruled, but actually that was because I, the player at the time, wanted to do so for immersion reasons, instead of balance reasons. It just also had the side effect of being (slightly) more balancing (though not much).
Still fun.
EDIT: I want to be clear: my experience does not negate anyone else's and relies heavily on our own internal balance - i.e. a combination of the "gentlemen's agreement"; the idea that anything a player can do, the GM can do better; and the GM's over-all desire to allow the players to have fun. These three elements (used to various extents in various games) ultimately made the game fun, balanced, and enjoyable for all involved. And our GMs are quite sane and reasonable (at least, insomuch as any GMs are...).
But again, this does not negate anyone else's experience, nor their desire for a more balanced game. The fact is, simulacrum is easily abused and can (and does) cause problems for some people. Our success was predicated on our local group, the trust and respect we hold for each other, and the general style of our games to regulate any potential problems. That is not the same thing as saying that the rules are not unbalanced. They are. And I like them that way. But I'm more than willing to set my preferences aside, if it makes the game over-all better for everyone else.
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So yes, rule-breaking/dishonesty aside, Summoners are capable of doing the gamebreaking shenanigans of full arcane casters while being very adept at beating arse like 3/4 casters while also having a pet minion that rounds out their skill retinue in a major way while also being comparable to an additional PC in their own right (albeit not usually a great one, their ability to be recycled and expendable means they don't have to be).They are nothing like as good at self buffing as 3/4 casters like the druid or cleric, they lack many of the tricks which real 9 level casters have, especially divination and transmutation, and they get a pitifully small number of actual spell slots.
They are a decent class but still nothing compared to a well played full caster.
I accept that their optimisation floor is pretty low, it is difficult to make a bad summoner.
Oh really sir? :o
With greater aspect you can grab 6 additional limbs. With multiweapon fighting you now have 8 primary attacks, plus an additional attack from being hasted, then your iterative attacks. That gives you a base attack routine of +14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+14/+9/+4. Then you can add in another +6 to attack rolls, saves, and skill checks and 20 temporary HP from greater heroism + +4 courageous gauntlet, then add in your ability modifiers (which should be around +7 to +10), plus enhancement bonuses on your weapons*. You can use the Arcane Strike feat to add an extra +5 damage to every attack that you make for the round as a swift action. At that point you're sitting at a minimum of +28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+28/+23/+18, and each attack is doing (assuming double slice) at least +13 damage (+7 Str, +5 arcane strike, +1 enhancement). Add your lillend (because summoner) minion's inspire courage for another +2 to hit and damage for you and your eidolon (bringing us to another minimum of +30s and +15s). Ride on your eidolon with pounce and start tearing stuff up once it's gotten you into melee range (if you wanna drop a couple of limbs you can have pounce too, but a few cheap quickrunner's shirts and you can have pseudo-pounce at least once per fight).
You and your eidolon both have important item creation feats between the two of you (Craft Wondrous, Craft Arms & Armor, Craft Rod) because both of you have caster levels and the means to do so, and thanks to the SLA FAQ (if you care for its ilk) having arcane-spell SLAs counts as having arcane spells so your eidolon can grab Arcane Strike as well (for another +4 damage on any of its attacks). Now you might think that all those weapons would be awfully expensive but at 1/2 price it's not so bad (about 4000 gp for a +1 bane weapon, so a mere 25,8000-ish gp for six +1 bane weapons), especially when you and your eidolon are making most everything you're going to use and/or wear (if you happen to also be in a party with someone who has greater magic weapon you can skip your own weapons and just make lots of pearls of power instead).
Mind you, again, this is with only 2 buffs active (haste and greater heroism). The summoner has plenty of buffs (heroism for trivial encounters at 10 min / caster level, enlarge person, alter self, and so forth). This is all of course assuming that your summoner doesn't snowcone his way to new heights with simulacrum + magic jar, because again, freakin' wizard-level shenanigans (yes, I am an eight-armed solar riding on a flying eldritch abomination, thank you).
For everything else there's masterc--I mean gate, simulacrum, spell turning, summon monster IX and greater planar binding.
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Meanwhile there's the eidolon itself. With no evolution points expended it's base statistics are...
(Quadruped)
Str 22, Dex 22, Con 13, Int 7, Wis 10, Cha 11 with +3 stat bonuses floating; 40 ft. speed, and an AC of 32 (10 + 6 dex + 16 natural). With no abilities invested at all.
Because of this, a summoner can very easily stack his eidolon without ever investing slotted magic items into his eidolon at all (so the eidolon never triggers the "drawback" of splitting magic items between itself and the summoner). For example, the eidolon gets the following abilities all by itself: share spells, evasion, improved evasion, and devotion (which negates the need for a ring of evasion, and provides a passive +4 bonus on many will saves). Additionally the eidolon can be subject to spells that do not affect its type or are personal spells.
That means the eidolon can benefit from things like enlarge person, lengthen limb, spell turning, barkskin, mage armor, protection from spells, stoneskin, greater invisibility and all sorts of other cute things without having to rely on magic items. For example, our otherwise naked eidolon hits AC 36 with a simple mage armor spell. The eidolon can of course still use magical shields (such as a +5 mithral buckler) if you want to give your eidolon more and more AC (or special abilities like fortification). With any effort at all (barkskin, evolution points, a shield, etc) you can very easily hit ACs that can tank the tarrasque's full attack without sweating it (the tarrasque hits at a +37, so you'd want an AC of about 57 to be evade-% capped, which can be as simple as +10 AC from evolution + barkskin + mage armor + shield which equals AC 55, at which point you could either just fight defensively, get a +2 bonus from inherent modifiers, or be hasted and use a buckler.
What's good for you is good for your eidolon. Arcane strike, heroism, a courageous weapon, whatever. You've got like 23 evolution points to play with (even more if you're a half elf, ya crazy coot!), which can be spent on things like more limbs and pounce (to keep it cheap, give 'em 2 handed weapons), more natural armor (up to +10 more AC for 5 points), basic magic (1 point, hello caster levels), immunity (pick an energy, or several), make 'em bigger (with juicy stat mods) and maybe even dump some solid SR (11 + your level) on them that doesn't block your spells. Of course you'll use wish via bound or created creatures to give your eidolon another +5 to all of its stats.
Then when you cast summon eidolon the 2nd level spell (after your eidolon snuffed it) then your eidolon gets to come back angrier than ever with another +4 to Strength, Constitution while it's active.
Need more dakka? Evolution Surge for 2, 4, or 6 additional evolution points worth of goodies. Don't like your eidolon? Transmogrify! Your eidolon just getting in your way? Throw him out and just summon some ghaele azatas or ice devils to heal, haze, and be a general nuisance to your enemies. Those get destroyed? Summon eidolon again!
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That post was full of win.
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So what your saying is that every one should play a summoner?
Did you see that? Cause I didn't see that. What I saw was someone responding about a comment, "summoners aren't OP." That person is wrong. Ashiel just demonstrated it.