how to not tpk...


Advice


So, Saturday I am running a game that I've been working on for a while. Yesterday I got all of the character sheets that will be playing and the setup is; wizard, sorcerer, sorcerer, witch, ranger focused on bows. The majority of enemies in the world are humanoid and thus intelligent and we are starting at level 1. How do I not kill them off? It's a low magic world which they know and the way I see it going is: roll for initiative, pc goes first and probably second, NPC enemies see them as a threat and focus fire killing them off or knocking them unconscious almost instantly, etc til all but the ranger are down/dead. To boot this is my first time gming so I'm likely going to have balance issues anyway as I get used to the system.
I don't want them to get frustrated and quit, but the world is set up and without ANYTHING between them and the enemy they are just really squishy targets.
I guess my question is: what should I do; should I kill a few off and hope they choose better next time? Weaken the early encounters so that they can play what they want, and if so how?
The first thing that I'm going to do is email everyone my concerns, but f they don't respond in time I'm a bit at a loss


If you are worried about combat destroying them at first level, make an adventure that doesn't involve combat. Or make one where the combat isn't to-the-death.

There are many ways to adventure and gain experience points. Murderous hordes of enemies is only one.


Well... The world is already made and they are evil, so while having noncombat related missions would be easy enough, I see them attacking someone and getting destroyed.


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Just don't focus-fire. Intelligent and 'does the smart tactical thing every time' are two completely different animals. Do what will make the game more fun and interesting, even if it isn't tactically savvy.

Roll behind a screen and fudge where necessary. Remember, you can't cheat, because you can't win, because it's not a competition.

Weaken/tailor the encounters, definitely. The players should absolutely play what they want. Perhaps even houserule death/dying to make it easier to be KOd than killed.

Or, perhaps easiest of all ... don't start at 1st level. Nothing says you have to.

Liberty's Edge

If the spellcasters pick summon spells, then they'll have an extra layer between them and the enemies. Just recommend that they have them on their spell lists. Or if the ranger is an archetype that starts with an animal companion and has the feat that makes it equal level like a druid's animal companion.


I like using this rule to prevent TPK and character death:
Failure is not the end - http://dnd-wiki.org/wiki/Failure_is_not_the_End_%283.5e_Variant_Rule%29

If the do get TPK'd, they instead wake up captured, and that becomes an intermediate step in the adventure of whatever was going to happen in the story.

Other than that, fudging rolls in their benefit, lowering the damage that the enemies do, and so on, would be good ways to ensure that they have fun, feel the danger, but don't get destroyed.


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Well they could always hire on mercenaries - a trained hireling, like a low-level warrior, costs something like 3 sp/day.

Alternatively, I don't insist my players fill certain roles, like 'tank', or 'trap-spotter', but I do assume they have their own way of handling certain obstacles, like summoning spells, especially if such obstacles are to be expected as a majority of encounters, as combat is.

These players will do well, in the first encounter. They may even do well in the second encounter. But once they've exhausted all their 1st level spells (shouldn't take long), they'll realize the advantages of having someone there to take/dish the physical damage, especially if you planned a combat-centric campaign.

Don't fudge the rolls. Let the dice speak for themself. The players may be excited to play the challenging party they have, or they may get upset that things seem so hard. In the case of the latter, remind them of the path they chose, and let them re-roll a character or two without penalizing their XP/gp.

Hope your campaign goes well - we all had to go through the awkward stages of learning to GM. Key is: keep having fun, and make sure your players are, too.


And nothing says you can't simply start easy mode. If its to be combat make the encounter one you are fairly sure they will win even if the foes roll 20's and your PCs act relatively stupidly. Over time as you gain confidence in both judging the difficulty of the foe and just what the PCs are capable of slowly ramp it up till you reach the happy point for you and your group.


There will be many encounters throughout the day so that is going to be rough. I'm thinking about not fudging the rolls unless it's absolutely necessary (like a one hit kill or something). I'll probably have them get captured when they get downed instead of killing them though. Maybe serving some time as slaves will teach them to have better party synergy...


Korthis wrote:

Yesterday I got all of the character sheets that will be playing and the setup is; wizard, sorcerer, sorcerer, witch, ranger focused on bows ... It's a low magic world which they know ... I don't want them to get frustrated and quit, but the world is set up and without ANYTHING between them and the enemy they are just really squishy targets.

I guess my question is: what should I do; should I kill a few off and hope they choose better next time? Weaken the early encounters so that they can play what they want, and if so how?

So you make a low magic world, informed them of this, and they still almost all made primary casters? I think before you get started you might want to really go through with your players just what you mean when you say low magic. If they're insistent, then let them roll with it and see how long they can last. Personally as a GM I wouldn't go gunning for the casters for no reason but I also wouldn't put on the kid gloves just because of the party makeup.

Silver Crusade

I'm a believer in letting the dice fall as they may and have previously posted that if my players believed I was "fudging" dice rolls, it would lessen the experience.

I always encourage my players to roll up any character they want but to coordinate and be aware that a party that doesn't diversify itself lessens the odds of having a means to solve each combat that comes along. However, it's not a guarantee for failure. Let the game weed things out naturally. Also consider implementing Pathfinder Society rule of allowing character "remakes" until 2nd level. I have found this is a great way to let players dip a toe into a particular party formation.

Are they new players as well or are you all experienced with you taking the reins for a bit? Also, did the world setting influence this? Are they expecting limited magical items so as to create characters less dependent on such?

Sovereign Court

Give them a chance. Dont catch them with their pants down until they have a few levels. They should have plenty of defense abilities here and be able to set up a winning strategy. Otherwsie kill them off and let them make new characters.


How low is the magic, and why? Did you make them take less spells or limit them? How will the populace react to a Burning Hands spell on the town guards, since they are an evil party? Back in the old days, the villagers used to burn the (insert 4/5 of the party here) at the stake for mere suspicion of magery. Prison is a good spot to learn survival skills, too.
Above, Simon Legrande states it clearly enough,you warned them and they made casters anyway, make an example of why thats a bad idea, so when or if they die they know how much it will hurt to play that class going forward. I suggest warning them again before the game starts, and that maybe you offer a free switch the following game session.


They have been playing for years and I have only played in one game (Once a week for about 6 months). They had to pick characters that had "some magical ability" (I told them that any spell casting counted including bard, paladin, ranger, cleric, druid, magus etc.). I guess I am partially to blame but I assumed that they would know that they should have someone to front line. Maybe I'll give them a chance to change early on and see what they say/if they are interested.
I'm hesitant to give to much info on the full scope of the story... but I can give a backdrop of the world because they will find all of this out (well most of it) first session. Hopefully if they read this they won't look at the spoiler.

Backdrop for the game I'm planning:
Basically they start off with no memory in a school where they can learn about the world. As it's a custom world I thought this would be a good way for them to learn about the world and it's also tied to the plot. They can take classes (Which have lessons linked to knowledges which will tell a large portion of the world’s history and also give a +1 to the knowledge) there's a library (where they can gain a +1 to the other skills by reading(less to do with the world and more to make it more realistic), a gym where they can work out (if they spend enough time training here they can get a +1 to an ability score depending on what they do) and a meditation room (same as gym but with magic) not long after they get there, I'm thinking maybe 2 days, the school gets invaded and utterly destroyed and they end up kind of thrown randomly (they are teleported to another school but because something is blocking their destination they go off course) into the world where it becomes more sandboxy. Once they leave the school they can regain their memories (via an INT check with a decreasing DC starting @ 30 and decreasing by 5 every time they fail) every time they encounter something that could remind them of the past.
Most of what they find out in the school is true, but some of it is lies toward the school's agenda.
Basically the continent that they are currently on was conquered 200 years ago by a woman from the south. Through guile and force she raised an army and systematically took it over. Even to this day someone of her bloodline rules each of the major cities. Not long after her power was absolute a war broke out between divine and arcane casters. Long story short the war was devastating to both sides but divine lost and they were largely wiped out. (Hence the shortage of magic items/powerful magically inclined people/healers etc) The war was, of course, a plot to weaken the abilities of the inhabitants for a true invasion which will take place during the campaign(as without healing and resurrection they are ripe for the taking so to speak). The school is actually a military training facility that kidnaps people with magical talent and trains them as soldiers (which is why everyone had to have some kind of magical talent). While their means are dubious, their goal is to bring equality to magic (as divine magic is outlawed).

Divine magic is outlawed (no divine caster exist with more than level 2 spells and anyone casting divine magic must be registered and watched, most all of them work for the government in some capacity, usually as wand/potion makers) but arcane magic is ok. They won’t get attacked for casting arcane spells but I had to change things up to allow them access to healing potions and wands (as originally all divine was going to be outlawed).

Sovereign Court

Have you discussed your worries with your players?

Sit them down and tell them that you're concerned, that the party they've made seems lopsided. Posit a number of situations they might encounter, that a normal party would be able to cope with; and ask them how they'd deal with them.

Maybe they can reassure you that they have a plan. Maybe some of them would rather change characters.

Actually talking directly with your players about the things that bother you can really help. Saves you a lot of trouble in the long run.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

i agree with those who have said that pulling punches cheapens the game... part of the fun of the game comes from the tension of knowing that your character (that you like and have invested time into) could actually die and not be playable anymore. plus there's not really any thrill of victory if there's no fear of defeat.

email everyone and let them know what the party make up is right now. tell them that they're welcome to play with the group as is but they better start talking about strategies to make it work. also tell them that if anyone wants to switch they're welcome to do so. maybe even point out a few options to bring some toughness/melee to the party... here's a few potential suggestions:
- druid. still a full caster but adding an animal companion adds some frontline capability, and they can spontaneously cast summons for extra meatshields.
- cleric or oracle. there are plenty of good melee builds for either and both retain full casting.
- scarred witch doctor. your witch could stay a witch but with Con as primary casting stat will be much tougher.
- eldritch knight build. see if anyone is interested in building towards this, if they are suggest starting with their 1 martial level. (if nobody is interested point out that they can get into EK as early as 3rd level having only lost 1 caster level and 1 BAB before entering- if you don't know how that works search for "early entry EK" or PM me).
- summoner. eidolons are sick... a well built one is like having an extra PC under your control during combat.

edit: after more carefully reading your instructions/background, dr deth is right- this is entirely your own fault. you gave them painfully few option and they chose from what was available to them. i would suggest that you tell them that its ok to make divine casters and that they will be able to access spells higher than 2nd level, that they don't have to register with the government (especially since they're evil), and that they will just have to be mindful where they cast spells and/or learn to disguise their spells. also, download the playtest for the Advanced Classes Guide and let them know that Bloodrager is an option for them as well.


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eh, if they have high dexterity, shield, mage armor, and protection from evil spread out amongst them and are smart with their buffing, they're still going to be hard to hit.

Also, if they have good initiative I can see a lot of your enemies going down to a spamming of daze before they can act and then just getting shot to death while they stand there.

Frankly when I GM I seem to take down the martials classes most often because they wade in and take critical hits. I think that party could be fine if the group works cohesively and cautiously together.

If they are working well together, many of your encounters will end with the enemies unable to ever attack anything. Just remember that if it is CR appropriate and they completely shut the encounter down, well that is how they have to play to survive. It isn't because it was too easy. Basically that party is playing rocket tag.


Well, your rules pretty much preclude divine casters*, so that means more dying or lying there bleeding out. I mean, what else could they choose? Not Fighter, Bbn, cavalier, Rogue, Monk or Paladin**. Even a ranger is marginal due to nothing more than 2nd level spells (altho there's a good ranger spell-less archetype, but that doesn't fulfill your rules).

About the only issue is that no-one picked a bard or a magus- other than that, they pretty much picked what they had to.

And- as a fairly new DM, why did you have a Evil campaign? And why Low magic?

You could use the Mythic rules of "Hard to Kill (Ex): Whenever you're below 0 hit points, you automatically stabilize without needing to attempt a Constitution check. If you have an ability that allows you to act while below 0 hit points, you still lose hit points for taking actions, as specified by that ability. Bleed damage still causes you to lose hit points when below 0 hit points. In addition, you don't die until your total number of negative hit points is equal to or greater than double your Constitution score."

*"Divine magic is outlawed (no divine caster exist with more than level 2 spells and anyone casting divine magic must be registered and watched". No one in their right mind would pick a divine caster with these limitations.

**"They had to pick characters that had "some magical ability"" and being Evil, no Paladins- besides the Pally would be crippled by the Divine magic rules.


Ascalaphus wrote:

Have you discussed your worries with your players?

Sit them down and tell them that you're concerned, that the party they've made seems lopsided. Posit a number of situations they might encounter, that a normal party would be able to cope with; and ask them how they'd deal with them.

Maybe they can reassure you that they have a plan. Maybe some of them would rather change characters.

Actually talking directly with your players about the things that bother you can really help. Saves you a lot of trouble in the long run.

This is possibly the best advice that any GM can learn. It helps head off so many problems and so much trouble. IF they still decide to go with what they have set up, you can do two things. Either pull the punches enough so they learn, which I wouldn't do, or flat out start killing them (this is what i'd do). Talking with them first gives them a warning, the typical "Are you SURE you want to do that?" Once you've asked that question and they go forward with it, gloves come off. Sometimes the only way people learn are through consequences.


DrDeth wrote:

Well, your rules pretty much preclude divine casters*, so that means more dying or lying there bleeding out. I mean, what else could they choose? Not Fighter, Bbn, cavalier, Rogue, Monk or Paladin**. Even a ranger is marginal due to nothing more than 2nd level spells (altho there's a good ranger spell-less archetype, but that doesn't fulfill your rules).

About the only issue is that no-one picked a bard or a magus- other than that, they pretty much picked what they had to.

And- as a fairly new DM, why did you have a Evil campaign? And why Low magic?

You could use the Mythic rules of "Hard to Kill (Ex): Whenever you're below 0 hit points, you automatically stabilize without needing to attempt a Constitution check. If you have an ability that allows you to act while below 0 hit points, you still lose hit points for taking actions, as specified by that ability. Bleed damage still causes you to lose hit points when below 0 hit points. In addition, you don't die until your total number of negative hit points is equal to or greater than double your Constitution score."

*"Divine magic is outlawed (no divine caster exist with more than level 2 spells and anyone casting divine magic must be registered and watched". No one in their right mind would pick a divine caster with these limitations.

**"They had to pick characters that had "some magical ability"" and being Evil, no Paladins- besides the Pally would be crippled by the Divine magic rules.

No, they could pick/be any magic casting class, they just won't run into any high level divine magic in the world. Their classes aren't restricted at all.

I assumed that they would make money/ quests would arise by them having high level divine magic which is rare, but... well that's just not the case. I also didn't restrict them to being evil, I just didn't say that they couldn't be. I also didnt have alignment-restricted classes so they could have been an evil paladin (the alignment thing also ties into the story and the school.)


Korthis wrote:
DrDeth wrote:

Well, your rules pretty much preclude divine casters*, so that means more dying or lying there bleeding out. I mean, what else could they choose? Not Fighter, Bbn, cavalier, Rogue, Monk or Paladin**. Even a ranger is marginal due to nothing more than 2nd level spells (altho there's a good ranger spell-less archetype, but that doesn't fulfill your rules).

About the only issue is that no-one picked a bard or a magus- other than that, they pretty much picked what they had to.

And- as a fairly new DM, why did you have a Evil campaign? And why Low magic?

*"Divine magic is outlawed (no divine caster exist with more than level 2 spells and anyone casting divine magic must be registered and watched". No one in their right mind would pick a divine caster with these limitations.

**"They had to pick characters that had "some magical ability"" and being Evil, no Paladins- besides the Pally would be crippled by the Divine magic rules.

No, they could pick/be any magic casting class, they just won't run into any high level divine magic in the world. Their classes aren't restricted at all.

I assumed that they would make money/ quests would arise by them having high level divine magic which is rare, but... well that's just not the case. I also didn't restrict them to being evil, I just didn't say that they couldn't be. I also didnt have alignment-restricted classes so they could have been an evil paladin (the alignment thing also ties into the story and the school.)

To me "Divine magic is outlawed (no divine caster exist with more than level 2 spells and anyone casting divine magic must be registered and watched" is a pretty severe restriction on divine casters. Dis you make it clear to them that they could cast higher level spells, that they didn't have to register, etc?

Ok, so you didn't restrict them to being evil, but why allow it? I mean, it's a very bad idea for a new DM to allow his players to go Evil.

And the fact they went there, very fast, indicates they may have some maturity issues.

I suggest very very strongly "No Evils".

And clarifying that the rules on Divine magic do not apply to the PC's.


I second DrDeth's No Evils. It all goes to hell unless your entire group is all evil to do something different on a one off adventure, or is very good about respecting each other as players and a GM and knows where the BADWRONGFUN lines are with everybody else.


I told them that magic items/potions will be rare and it will be hard to get outside healing and spells. I didn't even tell them the whole bit about divine magic and the like because they will find that out during the session. The exact information given is:

information for making your character:

Pick any class but it must have some casting ability (divine or arcane does not matter; paladin/ranger/magus, wizard, wtc.)
Pick any Core race, no advanced races
Alignment will not restrict class choices or how your character functions, but it will have other applications.
It will be low on magic, healing items will be rare as will outside healing from temples/people etc.
Have survival skills, you will be adventuring in areas outside of town for prolonged periods
The survival skill can be used to skin animals for pelts/hides which can be sold for money. The DC will scale with animal type and level with harder to skin animal’s having pelts worth more.
Loot will be tied to the creature killed (animals won’t have gear, peasants won’t have magic stuff etc)
Party synergy score. There will be party synergy bonuses if certain conditions are met. (If the party works well together, if the classes meld well together, etc.) At certain thresholds there will be bonuses to some skills, combat buffs, and story subplots. (If the party has a sufficient synergy score and two people work together to bluff someone = + to bluff skill etc)


And nobody took a druid???


Also, the fur pelt thing sounds horribly boring. Consider just using the Pafthfinder society on using skills to make money in the off times, and just state which skills will work in which locations. (If you can be a fur trapper with survival, you could be a herbalist using heal, spellcraft, or craft alchemy in the same terrain IMO)

The Exchange

My experience with "evil" campaigns has been very bad.

I fear that you will have pc vs pc problems.

I'd love to hear how this campaign works out.

As for them dying early on, that does give them the opportunity to create a better character so don't worry about having 1 or 2 of them get killed. I hope they are smart enough to know when flight is better than fight.

Good luck storming the castle.


Korthis wrote:
[...] I got all of the character sheets that will be playing and the setup is; wizard, sorcerer, sorcerer, witch, ranger focused on bows[...] It's a low magic world which they know and the way I see it going is: [...]

How are those two sentence possible at the same time? What do you mean by "low magic world"? If you mean there's little magic items, then your PC will be even more powerful.

I don't know how did they build they caracters. But if they did them right, and they planned together, they are a damn powerful set up, specially against humanoids, if the players are careful and veteran. First few levels will be somewhat hard, but they'll soon start to roflstomp things, specially if the NPC can't keep the pace because of low-magic world.

About being evil, there's a great 3pp AP called Way of the Wicked. It comes with a few solutions against the typical "evil group problems". The most important one: all the players have to sign a devil's contract with some NPC, and that contract has, among other things, a clause that say they can't betray each other, plot against the group, steal each other, etc. While this shouldn't be needed with a mature group, it IS a great deterrant for those who aren't.


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Way of the Wicked is great.

Still, a Evil campaign is NOT for a newb DM.


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DrDeth wrote:

Way of the Wicked is great.

Still, a Evil campaign is NOT for a newb DM.

I agree with both sentences.

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