Ravingdoge. natural twnty. too kind. wow.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Such G
much M
wow
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
<stuff about people overreacting>
It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have this character based on attacking things, think he's a fighter.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
Remember, you get 10 feats (bonus feats not withstanding) to build your character with. I'd hazard that, on average, any given character gains roughly 5 bonus feats over 20 levels.
Out of the standard 10 feats, 5 of them are being used for Crane Style. 4 of them if the class grants Imp. Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat.
50% of your characters' variable choice is sunk into one style of fighting. Given the serious investment involved, it's not out of line for a character to be built around it.
Even worse if you're a Crane Style/Dervish Dancer. That's 70% of your feats sunk into one play style.
DD Bard and MoMS are the exception.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
I have this character based on attacking things, think he's a fighter.
Why are you playing an NPC class?
I have this character based on attacking things, think he's a fighter.Why are you playing an NPC class?
Hey now, don't discount all NPC classes. Adepts can be quite good at contributing to the party. You need a lot of pearls of power, but it can be done.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Hey now, don't discount all NPC classes. Adepts can be quite good at contributing to the party. You need a lot of pearls of power, but it can be done.I have this character based on attacking things, think he's a fighter.Why are you playing an NPC class?
I gestalt rogues and fighters together into the adventurer class for my home games and it is still under-powered.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
Someone should really tell this to Magus who can literally solve most of their problems with an Intensified Elemental Shocking Grasp.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Someone should really tell this to Magus who can literally solve most of their problems with an Intensified Elemental Shocking Grasp.<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
Or how about a magus with High dex, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dancing, using a scimitar, uses their weapon enchantment to give their weapon keen, buying a agile enhancement, and using spell combat and spell strike with an Empowered-Intensified-Shocking Grasp on a 15-20 crit range... I.e. EVERY MAGUS EVER....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Or how about a magus with High dex, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dancing, using a scimitar, uses their weapon enchantment to give their weapon keen, buying a agile enhancement, and using spell combat and spell strike with an Empowered-Intensified-Shocking Grasp on a 15-20 crit range... I.e. EVERY MAGUS EVER....Someone should really tell this to Magus who can literally solve most of their problems with an Intensified Elemental Shocking Grasp.<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
Kinda what I was alluding to.
Someone should really tell this to Magus who can literally solve most of their problems with an Intensified Elemental Shocking Grasp.<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
If this hypothetical magus can "literally" solve all his problems with an intensified elemental shocking grasp, than the campaign he is in probably isn't very challenging.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If this hypothetical magus can "literally" solve all his problems with an intensified elemental shocking grasp, than the campaign he is in probably isn't very challenging.
Can solve at least as many problems as Crane Wing pre-errata. Sure, an intensified elemental shocking grasp won't make the queen like you, but neither will Crane Wing.
If this hypothetical magus can "literally" solve all his problems with an intensified elemental shocking grasp, than the campaign he is in probably isn't very challenging.Someone should really tell this to Magus who can literally solve most of their problems with an Intensified Elemental Shocking Grasp.<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
No, no, the campaigns I'm in are usually challenging. I just like to shocking grasp people.
It's useful for everything! Negotiations, interrogations, making friendships, animal training, bribery, cooking...
What I want to know is how Scavion knows I do that with that spell.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If this hypothetical magus can "literally" solve all his problems with an intensified elemental shocking grasp, than the campaign he is in probably isn't very challenging.Can solve at least as many problems as Crane Wing pre-errata. Sure, an intensified elemental shocking grasp won't make the queen like you, but neither will Crane Wing.
She'd be surprised what enemies of hers could be slain by it. I'd be interested in that if I were royalty.
*Magus glares ominously whilst his scimitar crackles with electricity and backs into the shadows*
EDIT: Great minds think alike MagusJanus.
Double EDIT: I thought of that as well MagusJanus, but I felt it might be too risque for these forums. They are quite the magic hand specialists.
If this hypothetical magus can "literally" solve all his problems with an intensified elemental shocking grasp, than the campaign he is in probably isn't very challenging.Can solve at least as many problems as Crane Wing pre-errata. Sure, an intensified elemental shocking grasp won't make the queen like you, but neither will Crane Wing.
It can. You're not using it on her directly, though. And if done in public, people consider it indecent.
Like with crane wing I guess.If this hypothetical magus can "literally" solve all his problems with an intensified elemental shocking grasp, than the campaign he is in probably isn't very challenging.Someone should really tell this to Magus who can literally solve most of their problems with an Intensified Elemental Shocking Grasp.<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
I don't disagree.
Just really dislike the automatic/passive aspect of the [original]crane wing feat.
<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined.
Like power attack?
Or how about a magus with High dex, Weapon Finesse, Dervish Dancing, using a scimitar, uses their weapon enchantment to give their weapon keen, buying a agile enhancement, and using spell combat and spell strike with an Empowered-Intensified-Shocking Grasp on a 15-20 crit range... I.e. EVERY MAGUS EVER....
How does that compare to a barbarian of the same level hitting something with his great sword/axe/maul?
Like power attack?
Power Attack n' Expertise feel like they should just be a normal, non-feat part of regular combat rules. Vital strike too.
Like power attack?<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined.
To be fair, power attack is just a feat tax.
Ideally all characters [or at the very least all martial characters] should receive it for free as an offensive option linked to base attack.
Power Attack n' Expertise feel like they should just be a normal, non-feat part of regular combat rules. Vital strike too.
In my upcoming Throne of Night campaign I'm doing that with Power Attack and TWF. Anyone with 13 STR can Power Attack, and anyone with 13 DEX can use Two Weapon Fighting. No reason not to extend it to Combat Expertise for anyone with 13 INT.
I'm also allowing anyone to move at their full speed while making a Full Attack by giving up their first iterative attack. Vital Strike is now a single feat, and works like Clustered Shots for melee (add together your total damage for the round, then subtract DR once).
Change was needed, but is now too weak and needs revision.
I personally felt like these "negate an attack" feats should require sacrificing an attack of opportunity (or maybe an immediate action). Then Riposte's AoO could be done for free, making it largely the same as before.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
-Change wasn't needed, it was balanced and acceptable.
If you are in a situation where deflecting a single melee attack per round was the difference between life and death, or a major game breaking change, your GM isn't doing the encounters properly.
If your character concept is based around Crane Wing, doesn't that mean your character concept is based around sucking against harpies?
<stuff about people overreacting>It would seem that basing your entire character on one trick is generally a good sign that that one trick should be re-examined. My condolences to him, but you could always, if you plan on implementing the rule, wait until after a campaign arc.
Except that wasn't the case at all. He was incredibly versatile. It's just that tripping up enemies and brutalizing them on the ground was kind of a big character theme.
Fortunately, I keep digital copies of all the character sheets, so you can see for yourself. This guy wreaked havoc (the good kind) throughout my Skull and Shackles games.
I think Deflect Arrows would actually benefit from a nearly identical change. It's never sat well with me that a Monk could grab "immunity to the orc party's archer" as a bonus feat.
And that the casters have several "immunity to orc party's archer" spells is not a problem?
I think Deflect Arrows would actually benefit from a nearly identical change. It's never sat well with me that a Monk could grab "immunity to the orc party's archer" as a bonus feat.And that the casters have several "immunity to orc party's archer" spells is not a problem?
At 2nd level? What are you talking about?
i feel like this feat was only useful against a very select group of npcs. it didnt stop casters...
If it had, it would have been nerfed a long time ago.
At 2nd level? What are you talking about?I think Deflect Arrows would actually benefit from a nearly identical change. It's never sat well with me that a Monk could grab "immunity to the orc party's archer" as a bonus feat.And that the casters have several "immunity to orc party's archer" spells is not a problem?
Only the MMS can get the feat at 2nd level. If that's the problem the archetype is the reason, not the feat.
And besides, obscuring mist can very mucch hose archers and that's 1st level.And from level 3 on there is wind wall which can be cast as 2nd level spell with the right build.
If you build towards it you don't even need to memorize them but can cast them spontanously as storm druid using domain casting.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
-Change was not needed-
Ban this feat in PFS play if it feels unbalanced there. I want to have fun in the games I play in.
Only the MMS can get the feat at 2nd level. If that's the problem the archetype is the reason, not the feat.
Yet, when you give a 2nd level character Deflect Arrows, or heck, if you gave them Vital Strike, it would not be such an issue.
And besides, obscuring mist can very mucch hose archers and that's 1st level.
Hosed is not immune. Golems hose wizards, yet wizards persevere.
And from level 3 on there is wind wall which can be cast as 2nd level spell with the right build.
Barriers aren't immunity. Notice how thick stone walls haven't been nerfed. Also, the orc archer can walk through a wind wall.
"Effective counters" is not the same thing as an immunity or deflection.
Yet, when you give a 2nd level character Deflect Arrows, or heck, if you gave them Vital Strike, it would not be such an issue.
I'm fairly certain that you are aware of this, but feats have different power levels. Crane Wing is intended to come online at a level where the opposition is fielding multiple attacks. It has a "best before"-date and loses more and more of its shine the higher the levels goes.
And yes, if level 1 characters could pick up Vital Strike (increasing the typical damage output by ~40%) I think that would be a a significantly bigger issue than crane wing ever was.
"Effective counters" is not the same thing as an immunity or deflection.
There is, of course, Fickle Winds. Which is Deflect Arrows, only it has no charge limitations (it stops ALL arrows fired at you for the duration), doesn't require a free hand, and protects the entire party. Also, unlike Wind Wall, it only stops hostile missiles. Your own archers can fire through it just fine - the winds really are rather fickle.
But that's a spell, so it's hardly a suitable comparison.
I don't even know what you're comparing it to. Fickle Winds is a 5th level spell, Disintegrate is 6th. I'm not even sure what point I'm supposed to be defending now. A 10th level orc archer can just walk through Fickle Winds, shooting at close range with Vital Strike. What are we even talking about at this point? Are we still talking about Deflect Arrows, which monks can get at 2nd level?
Yet, when you give a 2nd level character Deflect Arrows, or heck, if you gave them Vital Strike, it would not be such an issue.I'm fairly certain that you are aware of this, but feats have different power levels. Crane Wing is intended to come online at a level where the opposition is fielding multiple attacks. It has a "best before"-date and loses more and more of its shine the higher the levels goes.
And yes, if level 1 characters could pick up Vital Strike (increasing the typical damage output by ~40%) I think that would be a a significantly bigger issue than crane wing ever was.
"Effective counters" is not the same thing as an immunity or deflection.There is, of course, Fickle Winds. Which is Deflect Arrows, only it has no charge limitations (it stops ALL arrows fired at you for the duration), doesn't require a free hand, and protects the entire party. Also, unlike Wind Wall, it only stops hostile missiles. Your own archers can fire through it just fine - the winds really are rather fickle.
But that's a spell, so it's hardly a suitable comparison.
Or Winds of Vengeance, if you want the upgraded version.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Re: - It's only a PFS problem.
I've been GMing a non-PFS campaign using Kingmaker and Crane Wing was a problem. So yes, it is affecting Home games as well. I had a Tank player with Crane Wing. When I did get lucky and get an attack through he would Crane Wing it. Unless I tricked him into not defensively fighting I couldn't hit him in melee. And No, upping the to hit until I hit him on 10's doesn't work because then everyone else gets hit on 2's.
If you are upping the stats of monsters to hit defense specialized players at rates similar to non-defensive specialized players you are doing it (GMing) wrong.
|
If you are upping the stats of monsters to hit defense specialized players at rates similar to non-defensive specialized players you are doing it (GMing) wrong.Re: - It's only a PFS problem.
I've been GMing a non-PFS campaign using Kingmaker and Crane Wing was a problem. So yes, it is affecting Home games as well. I had a Tank player with Crane Wing. When I did get lucky and get an attack through he would Crane Wing it. Unless I tricked him into not defensively fighting I couldn't hit him in melee. And No, upping the to hit until I hit him on 10's doesn't work because then everyone else gets hit on 2's.
This pretty much covers it. You don't need to start upping monsters just to get around the defenses to begin with. That character is specialized in that particular area of the game and I'd imagine has paid for it in other areas. Following that line of thought, why penalize them even more for deciding to take that route? Simply have intelligent creatures learn from their mistakes and move on to other targets. You could also consider throwing in some creatures that aim at touch AC.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
This pretty much covers it. You don't need to start upping monsters just to get around the defenses to begin with. That character is specialized in that particular area of the game and I'd imagine has paid for it in other areas. Following that line of thought, why penalize them even more for deciding to take that route? Simply have intelligent creatures learn from their mistakes and move on to other targets. You could also consider throwing in some creatures that aim at touch AC.If you are upping the stats of monsters to hit defense specialized players at rates similar to non-defensive specialized players you are doing it (GMing) wrong.Re: - It's only a PFS problem.
I've been GMing a non-PFS campaign using Kingmaker and Crane Wing was a problem. So yes, it is affecting Home games as well. I had a Tank player with Crane Wing. When I did get lucky and get an attack through he would Crane Wing it. Unless I tricked him into not defensively fighting I couldn't hit him in melee. And No, upping the to hit until I hit him on 10's doesn't work because then everyone else gets hit on 2's.
Not only that, it makes the problem worse. If the Defense SPecialist is getting hit all the time, he will look for more ways to up his Defense to make it harder. The other party members simply won't be able to even attempt to keep up. There will come a point that the other party members stop trying to increase their defense, and increase their offense, hoping that they can kill everything before they get killed in return.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
One could make the same complaint that damage dealing characters are overpowered because you have to keep inflating the HP of your enemies so that the damage dealers don't kill them too quickly, and that isn't fair because now the ones who aren't specializing in dealing damage are even less effective.
The argument is stupid either way. You specialize in those things explicitly so that you can be better at them than everyone else who has not specialized in them.
It also shows a gross lack of understanding of your tools as a GM.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I learned a long time ago the mantra that it takes to be a good GM.
"It's okay for the PCs to be powerful".
I learned a long time ago the mantra that it takes to be a good GM.
"It's okay for the PCs to be powerful".
Indeed. As a GM, I let my players know that if they're going to start searching slat books, then I won't be limiting my NPCs or monsters to just CRB either. Especially the earlier Besitaries; change out those SLA and add variety.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I learned a long time ago the mantra that it takes to be a good GM.
"It's okay for the PCs to be powerful".
Mine are "Always say 'Yes'. Unless you really, really have to say 'No'." and "Don't whine. Adapt.".
I like to encourage character variety and player creativity. I don't really care if my monsters get their asses kicked or not... As long as the players are having fun, I don't mind if they curb stomp the Tarrasque into nothingness or if they struggle to survive an encounter with half a dozen blind goblins...
Change was needed, it's now balanced and acceptable
Ban this feat in PFS play if it feels unbalanced there. I want to have fun in the games I play in.
You still can. You can totally ignore this in your games if you want.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Change was needed, it's now balanced and acceptable
Ban this feat in PFS play if it feels unbalanced there. I want to have fun in the games I play in.You still can. You can totally ignore this in your games if you want.
Little bit more difficult than that. Folks want to play what is Official. Whether we like it or not, Paizo has declared that Crane Wing was too powerful and it got the nerf hammer in return. Also when you sit down to play, you want to know all the houserules in advance so you know whats going on. Ultimately it comes down to, "If I'm houseruling all this crap anyways, Why play Pathfinder?"
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Indeed. As a GM, I let my players know that if they're going to start searching slat books, then I won't be limiting my NPCs or monsters to just CRB either. Especially the earlier Besitaries; change out those SLA and add variety.I learned a long time ago the mantra that it takes to be a good GM.
"It's okay for the PCs to be powerful".
The funny thing is, barring the occasional feat swapping and stuff, most of my GMing activities remain fairly much in the realm of core. I still have no issues challenging players.
Stuff I allow in the group.
1. All core rulebook material.
2. Advanced Player's Guide (slight mods to the Summoner).
3. Ultimate Magic.
4. Ultimate Combat (no gunslinger/firearms, we have our own).
5. Dreamscarred Press' Psionics rules
6. Bestiary I+ (feats, familiars, some races, etc).
7. Homebrew and 3PP as accepted (if you have an idea and there's nothing for it, we can probably work something out).
8. Campaign specific races (I have changelings that are related to doppelgangers in my campaigns, different types of elves, dwarfs, goblins, drider, planetouched, etc).
Barring a few things that I've banned (I'll stop playing before I sit at a table with Antagonize) or tweaked (summoner got tweaked into a 9th level progression with a extremely trimmed spell list), I'll allow most anything as long as it's reasonable.
However...
The stuff that I typically employ as a GM.
1. Core rulebook material.
2. Bestiary I material.
3. Occasional dip for a couple of feats or spells from the above sourcebooks.
I tend to keep things simple. Nobody has complained about my games being too easy yet. If anything, I can't figure out why they put up with struggles, but they keep crawling back for more. :P
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Role-playing Masochism of course.