What class shall I do next?
This is awesome thread! I don't DM but we do have a synthesist in our party. I especially like the protection from alignment idea. As a party, we buff to the teeth when we know something is up. Why wouldn't bbeg buy 50 gp potion of prot? Maybe 150 for 3rd cl, or cast it himself. One thing i've taken from the summoner is the spell list for use in my character. 3rd level is restriction on potions, but some summoner spells are 3rd level that others have as 4th.
Give details on character checks and abilities. The monk in our party has high acrobatics. When we move we get attacked, opportunity style. He just makes the check. Our rogue saves us with trap disabling and lock picking. Area attacks for the magus. etc. etc. One thing that might help everyone shine is to add detailed descriptions to these events. Not just *click* the lock opens, but something more. Same thing with skill checks. It's easy for gory detail of opening up a mob, it's more subtle with nuances of the game.
Dashing my hopes is the rule on protection from alignment spell vs eidolon:
Eidolon: A summoner begins play with the ability to summon to his side a powerful outsider called an eidolon. The eidolon forms a link with the summoner, who, forever after, summons an aspect of the same creature. An eidolon has the same alignment as the summoner that calls it and can speak all of his languages. Eidolons are treated as summoned creatures, except that they are not sent back to their home plane until reduced to a number of negative hit points equal to or greater than their Constitution score. In addition, due to its tie to its summoner, an eidolon can touch and attack creatures warded by protection from evil and similar effects that prevent contact with summoned creatures.
Doing the fighter build I remembered the fighting defensively bit. You could drop the ring of protection for some savings and still hit a 39 AC. You can still get a "practically 40" result by only getting +3 bracers as well. Either way, if you have any buffer support in the group you're going to be over 40.
I haven't read all the posts in this thread, but I can tell you I've had similar issues dealing with my group of 8-10 players. As others have pointed out, things like Ennervation and negative level drain work wonders. Also staging encounters designed to exploit their weaknesses, like charms against the ones with low will saves, etc. Drop a curse on the synthesist so that he has a 50% chance not to act at all.
When in doubt, attack them with the exact build that's causing you problems. If that won't work, attack with five.
My absolute favorite aspect of this thread is that Non-synthesist summoners are just as strong as the Synthesist. Non-Synthesists still have LIFE LINK at level 1, so their Eidolon's max HP is still (Eidolon's hp-1 + Summoner's HP) while if the summoner is a orc or has diehard this extends even to the summoner's constitution mod where he has to let the eidolon die or die himself.
Guys, guess what, the regular summoner can give his eidolon hp AND cast rejuvinate eidolon on top of that. Hence making your entire argument that synthesists are overpowered to be complete garbage.
Yes, he can dump his physical statistics, but then again a normal summoner can just have his eidolon carry him in a backpack or something. If the enemy doesn't know he is there then they don't even get a chance to attack him. Granted this is a sub-optimal way to play.
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Guys, guess what, the regular summoner can give his eidolon hp AND cast rejuvinate eidolon on top of that. Hence making your entire argument that synthesists are overpowered to be complete garbage.
Nope, it just proves the summoner itself is even more powerful. I hope you at least recognize that just because you will burn your hand in a 200°C liquid does not mean it is COMPLETE GARBAGE to suppose a 150°C liquid can be pretty hot as well. Also, I was hoping thinly veiled condescension could stay far away from this thread after the first page.
But back to the topic: a vanilla summoner himself can at least be targeted more easily in order to challenge him without resorting to cheap tricks based on totally negating its powers or utterly screwing the player. And while it is both a potent damage dealer and spellcaster, it remains less powerful than a dedicated class, unlike the synthesist who overshadows barbarians and fighters in a pinch. Hence : more versatility, yet better balance.
Incorrect Maxximilius.
The arguments are still garbage. Yes, you can focus the Vanilla Summoner, but if he is built to be made of HP to maximize the Eidolon's HP then he's going to have 20 con, so good luck. Furthermore any caster dependent on a pet for their power is going to have invisibility memorized, be good at sneak, and/or just be nowhere near the fight. Good luck on spotting that summoner hiding in the bushes 50 feet away.
So, lets take the perception modifiers here, shall we, -1 per 10 feet [50 ft = -5], and "distracted" [-5] by that eidolon wanting to remove your face, so you are already at a -10 to find him, but note he could be 90 feet away making your check at a -14 instead, and as I said, Invisibility, so your check is at a -50 if he is standing still, or a -30 if he is moving.
So, yes, good luck finding that summoner. Unless you can 1-shot him or prevent him from casting invisibility he can just hide from you while his eidolon punches you in the face, AND be able to heal his eidolon each round without becoming visible.
The Synthesist is weaker than the Summoner, and it is, quite literally, the low level survivability that makes people complain. The Level 3 synthesist in my friday game has 60-hp, but then again the Orc Barbarian effectively had just as much and was just as dangerous with full HP as he was at negatives, and anti-magic fields don't do anything to him.
Pathfinder is all about negation. Your physical damage characters shine when your Fire Evoker runs into a Fire immune monster. It isn't a "cheap trick" to enable everyone to shine. Anyway, the eidolon isn't desummoned by the anti-magic field. He just isn't there within it. He can just back up and get his eidolon back since it is a magical effect that is centered on him.
It boils down to
"The Summoner is almost as dangerous as the trap-finding barbarian who kills everything. Well, lets have this boss encounter have a BBEG who only fights within the anti-magic field, and a small army of goons who flood in the back to help him kill the party. They are not very smart goons, however, and attack the first person they run into or the person who is attacking them."
In other words:
Eidolon can't attack the Boss. He hangs back. When the Goons come in they end up fighting the eidolon while the party kills the boss.
DMing is all about adaption. If you are unwilling to adapt then stop DMing or force everyone to play only out of the CRB.
I know I am good enough to deal with any challenge the PCs throw at me. So, my question is: are you?
Why not attack when he is sleeping? it takes a minute to get his suit on, so to speak. Hit him with a swarm while sleeping and down he goes. Good luck summoning with that happening
Still thats a bit like murder in my mind.
In combat have an inquisitor fight him. Give the inquisitor dazzeling display and max intimidate and you'll shake him for several rounds. Also the bane ability and judgements make the damage output high. Back the inquisitor wth a bard for inspire and good hope (+5 hit and dam), and a cleric to buff and heal. Finish with a couple of rangers with species enemy gnome and bows, and there's an encounter for your party. Flesh out with a few blocking minions like summoned monsters or orcs or guards or something.
Give them good equipment, say pc level (+1 cr). Make the terrain suitable for ambush. Potions of invisibility are great for that.
Or third option have an assassin hit him as he has disrupt ed someones plans. Hit him having dinner at an inn. Poison plus death attack plus sneak attack. A lv5 rogue level 5 assassin is very dangerous. Plan for the assasin to hit then fade immediately. If it doesn't work, recycle elsewhere.
Forth death by roleplay. Have alocal religon state that summoners are evil as they consort with otherworldly entities. No one will trade with the infamous summoner. Put a bounty on his head by the church. A reason for the inquisitor above.
BUT always give the characters a way to resolve the situation by their own efforts. Be appsolutely fair. Warn them in some way. It doesn't have to be obvious.
Think of a hunter giving his prey a sporting chance. Then kill them if you can. Make all of your party work for it. Then they'll have an accomplishment to remember.
BTW I like summoners and their archetypes. People that throw their hands up and cry broken are not trying hard enough.
BTW I like summoners and their archetypes. People that throw their hands up and cry broken are not trying hard enough.
Pretty much the case in every situation.
Some DMs and people have the idea that the big bad evil guy thinks scrying on, preparing for, and killing the people who are coming to kill them is cheap.If someone is coming to kill a wizard, and he knows about them as well as their intentions then I can assure you that he's going to be doing everything in his power to stop them.
He lures them into a cavern, then activates the trap that blows up the opening, and then teleports out. He can rest assured that they are dead since everything deeper in the cave is probably wondering what that noise was . . . especially the drow since drow poison still works.
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/Says the argument is gargabe but just proves it anyway by confirming the summoner is OP and the synthesist must be dealt with through cheap tricks like Antimagic Field in order to be balanced.
There is so much wrong in this thread. I could insert a long rant, but I'll not follow the ass wagon and just remember people reading this that all your arguments and those of synthesist defenders since the beginning of this thread can be resumed to:
- "my opinion is better than yours"
- "I'm so much better and more imaginative than everyone else, because unlike you I am willing to deal with broken rules..."
- and "... even though my way of dealing with the balance of broken rules is by castrating the characters using them by removing their class feature on a failed saving throw/making them useless with a spell/putting the player against something even more broken to teach them a lesson/making my BBEG immune to them/killing them in their sleep".
I don't need to justify myself or defend the skills of my group's DM ; neither do other people who just like us ban the synthesist.
Keep having fun. I'll just move away and enjoy the common pleasure that we will never play in each other's games.
BTW I like summoners and their archetypes. People that throw their hands up and cry broken are not trying hard enough.Pretty much the case in every situation.
Some DMs and people have the idea that the big bad evil guy thinks scrying on, preparing for, and killing the people who are coming to kill them is cheap.
If someone is coming to kill a wizard, and he knows about them as well as their intentions then I can assure you that he's going to be doing everything in his power to stop them.
He lures them into a cavern, then activates the trap that blows up the opening, and then teleports out. He can rest assured that they are dead since everything deeper in the cave is probably wondering what that noise was . . . especially the drow since drow poison still works.
Amen, preaching to the choir.
The way I play the only really tough fights are the boss fights, and they fight for keeps.If the big bad isn't cheating you are doing it wrong. Think darth vader in cloud city.
They are the bad guys after all
Hey Maxximilius I bet you have problems with the Witch, too, eh?
I mean, she can just shut down an entire encounter with one hex that she can spam. I guess Witches are broken, too.
Oh, did I mention the Slumber Hex defeats the Synthesist? Oh! Gosh Darnit, thats a cheap trick, too!
Lets send a Barbarian that does a ton of damage at the Synthesist! Wait, nope, that's a cheap trick!
I can't help it if some people just suck at DMing, not to say you are in that category. If it is any consolation it was harder with 3.5. Your presumptions of what is and isn't cheap is standing in your way, and probably in the way of you being a better DM, but I digress.
Replying to max
How about the fighter with four attacks, five with haste (twf) at tenth level. Every class has the potential to be min maxed to death.
If you think you are right, well good for you. What happens at your table is your affair. You certainly don't dictate mine. All I can say is that neither me or my players have any complaints.If thats not good eenough for you, well its a free country.
I could say more but politeness is restraining me.
"If attack is perceivd, then retaliate I will. Small or large".
On reflection perhaps we should all take a step back and cool down. Everyone plays in their own way.
We are here to be helpful.
You know... I only posted in this thread to comment on the builds, and this kind of post is why. Taku, you are being condescending, offensive, and an overall ass.Hey Maxximilius I bet you have problems with the Witch, too, eh?
I mean, she can just shut down an entire encounter with one hex that she can spam. I guess Witches are broken, too.
Oh, did I mention the Slumber Hex defeats the Synthesist? Oh! Gosh Darnit, thats a cheap trick, too!
Lets send a Barbarian that does a ton of damage at the Synthesist! Wait, nope, that's a cheap trick!I can't help it if some people just suck at DMing, not to say you are in that category. If it is any consolation it was harder with 3.5. Your presumptions of what is and isn't cheap is standing in your way, and probably in the way of you being a better DM, but I digress.
Thats because people who take the easy route should be condescended to, because they are being overall asses to whoever decided that playing this or that is a good idea. If someone is going to come and make a claim then give actual reasons for why your claim is, instead of just tossing it out there. Otherwise you should, nay deserve, to have it thrown back in your face. Nothing in Pathfinder is broken, not even leadership since none of the extras get any gold of their own.
If the DM has no idea what he is doing then everything that isn't mediocre is broken.We condescending bastards are usually condescending just to put how bad other peoples arguments are.
Plus, playing the DM is really easy when you have a condescending villain--We're always in character!
Condescending people are being that way for themselves.
Condescending people are being that way for themselves.
My secret! How did you know?
First there is A. A is a summoner (synthesist), here are is main features.
AC 40 (10+3 dex+2 deflection+4 mage armor+ 14 natural+ 4 barkskin+1 dodge+2 shield)
4 claws attacks +20/22 with heroism each does 1d6+11
1 bite +19/21 1d8+11
and rend for 1d6+16DR 5/good, immunity to fire (lol 2 points evolution) can fly using spells, auto cast haste and OP buffs like bull's strenght and greater evolution surge to grow big, granting himself +8 strenght,+6 con and reach.
something like 180 HPs
His feats include something to get -1 attack/+1 AC, power attack for low armor monsters and some other things. He also has near to 0 equipment other than an amulet of mighty fists +1, a cloak of resistance +2 and a belt of strenght +4
As far as i remember eidolon evos are (he has 16 evo points thanks to improved evolution, i let him take that because it looked awkward that a synth couldn't take the only summoneresque good feat)
4 points for +4 strenght; 2 points for +2 dex; 2 for +4 nat armor; 1 for extra claws; 1 for improved claws (1d6); 2 for imm. fire; 3 for damage reduction; 1 for improved bite (1d8).
Stats go something like 26 str (16 base, 20 with free boost, 24 evos, 26 level and 30 with belt), dex 18 (12 base, 4 free, 2 evos) cos 12.
Eidolon HPs around 60
attack of +20 comes from +8BAB, 10 STR, 1 feat and 1 amulet. Heroism last almost 2 hours so it's usually up, bringing it to +22.
14 nat armor comes from base 2, 8 free, 4 evos. Stacks with barkskin.
You don't mention a source for a deflection bonus to AC, and also that 8 "free" armor is ARMOR not natural armor. It doesn't stack with mage armor. So his AC is 4-6 too high. If he becomes large, his AC goes down 1 for size and 1 for dec penalty also. Belt not stacking has been covered. But yeah, synths are mean.
Oh, and the strength ability increase cost doubles for a large eidolon. I have no idea how that works with evolution surge. Other than, "The eidolon must meet any prerequisites of the selected evolution." So it sounds like he'd have to have an extra 4 points laying around to spend on his ability score increase or they would end, effectively not stacking with the size change. Meaning his strength would net +4 not 8.
posts
You are a powerful necromancer.
"RIIIIISE THREAD! RIIIIISSSSEEEE!"
This thing was nowhere near as old as then stuff they've been raising over in Rules Questions. In my defense.
Just as an FYI - The armor increase can be natural armor (and probably should be due to the ease of Mage Armor).
Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon's base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon's base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner's connection to the eidolon.
Just as an FYI - The armor increase can be natural armor (and probably should be due to the ease of Mage Armor).
Armor Bonus: The number noted here is the eidolon's base total armor bonus. This bonus may be split between an armor bonus and a natural armor bonus, as decided by the summoner. This number is modified by the eidolon's base form and some options available through its evolution pool. An eidolon cannot wear armor of any kind, as the armor interferes with the summoner's connection to the eidolon.
If it's an option, why would you ever not make it natural armor?
Those zany eidolons.
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Something people must never forget assassins npcs tend to be proactive. They cannot afford to wait for someone to come and kill them in their room, it's not a console rpg after all. A babau with class levels for example would be invisible and most likely attack the pcs while they are busy with a trap or another group of enemies.
I agree with a lot of the other posters that taking a different tack on your encounter design will go a long way towards making this guy a lot more manageable. Especially if you work out the errors like his con being replaced by the eidolon's, enhancement bonuses not stacking, buffs expiring, etc.
Here are a few more fun spells for you that I haven't seen mentioned yet:
Blasphemy Fun for the whole party, especially fun for the eidolon!
Summoner Conduit Damage the eidolon AND the summoner with your touch-attack spells!
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IMHO, once the DM needs to significantly change many encounters for one particular PC, it’s time just to ask that Player to bring in another. Don’t try to solve this IC, it’s rather ‘richardish’ to pick on one PC. Now, yes, with a Summoner, the build must be double checked, the math triple checked, and you gotta make sure you are all doing the rules right. But once we are 1005 sure the character and his actions are 100% legal, but he’s still busting your game- just ask him to bring in another.
You'd make it an armor bonus of at least +1 so you could cast Greater Magic Vestment on it.
The rest, yeah, should be natural armor. It's better in all ways then armor.
==Aelryinth
Have you tried using another Synthesist Summoner against him?
Takes one to kill one.
IMHO, once the DM needs to significantly change many encounters for one particular PC, it’s time just to ask that Player to bring in another. Don’t try to solve this IC, it’s rather ‘richardish’ to pick on one PC. Now, yes, with a Summoner, the build must be double checked, the math triple checked, and you gotta make sure you are all doing the rules right. But once we are 1005 sure the character and his actions are 100% legal, but he’s still busting your game- just ask him to bring in another.
(Ever so glad this thread was necro'd. It was probably getting close to being locked by the mods last time.)
Anyhow; there's a difference between designing encounters to defeat one PC and designing a variety of encounters. The OP was throwing the same encounter at his party over and over - a single big bruiser. That was poor design to begin with. That it was also the type of encounter that a melee-focused Synthesist is best suited to (even when not breaking the rules, as this one was) just exacerbated the problem.
The lack of effort in DMs is most evident.
Instead of finding the problem, fixing it in general and understanding how things work we are just looking at singular short sighted issues, and deciding that the problem lies not in our encounter design but in our players.
It is extremely sad when you can see all of the cards of your players' hands in poker, hand craft your own hand to beat them, and then still lose when it isn't on purpose.
I've already told the OP everything that he needs to do or understand in order to deal with this summoner and his party. So none of you need to even bother posting. It has been done: the advice has been given.
Now if you don't mind I am going to go stare narcissistically into the mirror and admire how smart I am. XD
I GM'd a synthesist PC last week. Phantasmal killer took him out in one action just like I could have for any other PC. He used hero points to live but they're supposed to be special like that. The fight was not modified in any way due to the synthesist.
IMHO, once the DM needs to significantly change many encounters for one particular PC, it’s time just to ask that Player to bring in another. Don’t try to solve this IC, it’s rather ‘richardish’ to pick on one PC. Now, yes, with a Summoner, the build must be double checked, the math triple checked, and you gotta make sure you are all doing the rules right. But once we are 1005 sure the character and his actions are 100% legal, but he’s still busting your game- just ask him to bring in another.Anyhow; there's a difference between designing encounters to defeat one PC and designing a variety of encounters. The OP was throwing the same encounter at his party over and over - a single big bruiser. That was poor design to begin with. That it was also the type of encounter that a melee-focused Synthesist is best suited to (even when not breaking the rules, as this one was) just exacerbated the problem.
True. Changing things up is good. Still, going out of your way to design encounters just to defeat one PC is not a Good Idea.
I've DMed a game where there were 4 summoners with rings of invisibility and a cleric, and still managed to challenge them quite well.
The trick is ultimately to make sure that
A) Both sides have the same loose action economy. For each PC have at least a single monster for each. They do not need to focus on their own character, but it tends to be useful for them to be intelligent enough to come up with basic tactics.
B) Have some sort of area boss or BBEG who scrys on the PCs. He learns their weaknesses, their strengths, and instructs his minions on who to attack. The basic minions might not know the weaknesses, but any one in the actual power-structure of the BBEG's hierarchy will know them.
C) Invisibility, preferably Greater Invisibility. A lot of things get resolved when enemies are invisible. It forces people to take actions they otherwise wouldn't.
D) Anti-Magic Fields. Now some people complain that this is "specifically targeting the summoner, boo hoo" but this is targeting your magic items, your spells, your supernatural abilities, pretty much everything. You can make a villain a super powerful martial of doom if you have to fight him in an anti-magic field.
E) Traps. Not basic traps like "arrows shoot at you" but instead traps that do bad things like Dominate person, stinking cloud, or just fog cloud in a room filled with pit traps.
F) Pits covered with illusion spells. These are just camouflaged pits.
G) Pits covered with illusion spells, AND something forcing the PCs to run. When you are running you do not get a save VS pit traps. If you do not say that you are walking half speed looking for traps you don't get the perception check, you just make your reflex. If you have a 10-foot pole, poking the ground in front of you, looking for pit traps, then, well, you automatically trigger them and that's no fun.
H) Copy the characters into NPCs, let them have NPC statistics instead of heroic statistics, let them have PC gold, and then send them against the PCs. This should be a boss encounter to end a major part with, but not the campaign.
I) If the PCs are melee throw lots of ranged enemies at them, if the PCs are ranged, throw a lot of melee at them, if the PCs use a lot of spells then throw a lot of monsters that have Spell Resistance at them, if the PCs are all offense oriented and kill everything with one or two hits then make sure the enemies are extremely damaging or have special effects that take effect when they die (Burning skeletons are fun), if the PCs have ridiculous longevity then add in monsters that come back constantly (Bloody Skeletons are my favorite, make them burning and they are even better), and if the PCs are SOOPAH DEFENSU GODRY AC AND SAVSU then you can usually ignore them because their money and statistics are all in defense and after you kill their friends just mob them so they cannot run anywhere as they do minimal damage--you'll get enough 20s to bring them down eventually.--
J) If PCs drop everything into AC Touch AC and Flat-footed ac, and their saves then their CMD will probably be absolute trash, so target that.
K) If all else fails send lots of enemies who cast unavoidable spells. A level 1 wizard (CR1/2) still does 1d4+1 with magic missile, and there is no avoiding that.
L) Diseases are often the most overlooked and underused thing in the game. Use them.
M) I have finally hit M, so I'll stop here. Use elements that limit breathing (Water, carbon dioxide clouds, lava, acid, any fluid) to prevent PCs from breathing. Some of the most tense areas have been areas where PCs are fighting in places with Limited Visibility and limited breathing air. A few characters die here, but it is rare.
Just say no to level drain. Seriously. It just stinks of singling out one of your players because you can't deal with him normally.Except when the the class forces a dm to do this, as is the case with the summoner.
AC 40 (10 + dex+ 2 deflection+ 4 + 1 dodge)
His touch AC is 17.use a witchfire
If he is immune or resistant to fire then use a witchcoldfire. just change the element.
Suddenly the summoner is vulnerable.
Just hit it with negative energy. Lots of negative energy.
As to classes "forcing" the GM to do something? No. Just no. Use enemies better. Write a better story. Etc. Etc.
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I kind of want to quote every single post here saying "Summoners are Overpowered" and then just at the very bottom caption it with
"lol noobs."
I kind of want to quote every single post here saying "Summoners are Overpowered" and then just at the very bottom caption it with
"lol noobs."
Hahahaha most definitely.
Summoners, synthesists most of all, are EEEEASY. They only get one creature's worth of actions. This ALONE makes them as easy to combat as any other class. They're the weakest of the summoner archetypes. People get too caught up over the ability increase evolution on a PC and think "zomg the sky is falling!" Hahahahahaha
I've DMed a game where there were 4 summoners with rings of invisibility
Really? Why on earth would 4 of 5 players choose to play the same class, with the same magic item?
I've DMed a game where there were 4 summoners with rings of invisibilityReally? Why on earth would 4 of 5 players choose to play the same class, with the same magic item?
Indeed, why would people choose to play the characters they want to play, rather than forcing someone to play a character they don't enjoy?
Indeed, why would people choose to play the characters they want to play, rather than forcing someone to play a character they don't enjoy?I've DMed a game where there were 4 summoners with rings of invisibilityReally? Why on earth would 4 of 5 players choose to play the same class, with the same magic item?
Odds that 4 out of 5 players were determined to play a single type of character all at the same time and with no alternatives (I have 6 characters I could play right now at the drop of a hat at about any level) vs odds that they were being cheezy....