100 spells that step on mundane toes


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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This sort of thing comes up sometimes in some topics, I thought it might be fun as a 100 topic. Magic has some unique tricks (polymorphs, image illusions, etc) and some tricks that let mages do mundane things (but usually better and faster). This topic is for the latter.

1: Invisibility to win at stealth.
2: Disguise Self to, well, win at disguise.
3: Transformation (formerly Tenser's) to become a trained warrior.


4: Knock


5. Expeditious Retreat - to move quickly.
6. Haste - to do multiple attacks and actions.
7. Dimension Door - to get past opponents and behind them.

This is starting to look like casters have it all...


8: spider climb


9. create water
10. create food and water
11. minor creation
12. major creation
13. fabricate
14. wood shape
15. stone shape


16. teleport killed the caravan trade


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17. Message - because yelling is for martial classes.


18. wall of stone
19. expeditious excavation
20. light
21. know direction
22. find the path
23. mount
24. tiny hut


25. Detect Magic
26. Comprehend Languages

Detect Magic was used so frequently by a wizard in my last campaign that I began designing whole dungeons/treasure hoards/NPCs around anticipating the spell.

Comp. Languages and other lingo spells guarantee that after a certain level the whole "Ancient, unknowable book/runes/hieroglyphs" thing is unusable.


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27. Unseen servant. Those dishes aren't going to wash themselves... Oh wait, I guess they are.


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28. Prestidigitation. Why waste time and money on cleaning your clothes when a mere cantrip will do the same?


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strayshift wrote:

5. Expeditious Retreat - to move quickly.

6. Haste - to do multiple attacks and actions.
7. Dimension Door - to get past opponents and behind them.

This is starting to look like casters have it all...

That's because they do have it all, once they get to a certain level.


29. Mend - You no longer ever need anyone (except a caster) to fix an mundane tool, item, weapon, etc.


Icyshadow wrote:
That's because they do have it all, once they get to a certain level.

A handful of times per day, IF they prepare for it in advance and can spare the spell slots, unless they dish out quite a bit of money on one-use items like scrolls.

Even high level wizards are starved for spell slots in prolonged periods of activity.


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The Quite-big-but-not-BIG Bad wrote:
Icyshadow wrote:
That's because they do have it all, once they get to a certain level.

A handful of times per day, IF they prepare for it in advance and can spare the spell slots, unless they dish out quite a bit of money on one-use items like scrolls.

Even high level wizards are starved for spell slots in prolonged periods of activity.

Common misconception. As a Wizard advances in level with the help of long duration spells, their available spells actually begin to accumulate at a quadratic rate. Eventually 1/hour level buffs can be cast every two days (allowing you to alternate each day to get more buffs). Spells that are permanent until discharged are even better as they can be accumulated until you have more such effects then there are rounds in a day (I'm a big fan of explosive runes). Minion creating/calling spells are another way that a Wizard can save on slots as they advance in level. Animate Dead gets you a number of spell slot free damage, while even used completely intended Simulacrum provides access to even more spells when you make a half-hd copy of your self.

All of this also discounts the fact that a high level Wizard will almost certainly have access to a permanent demiplane with the double time flowing time trait allowing them get two days of spell preparation out of every one day of "normal time" and allows for 4 hour "normal time" spell preparation and extremely accelerated crafting (which can also save you spell slots).

Of course all of that is on top of the well over 70 (20 or so 7th to 9th level spells) spells per day a Wizard with the appropriate INT bonus gets. If that is a handful of spells to you, I have to ask if you are a Hecatoncheires.

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Some of these things are actually in the unique realm of magic, such as Detect Magic.

The others are taking jobs away from honest hardworking mundanes.

30: Stabilize


This is starting to look like we need some sort of "chance of failure with averse side effects" mechanism for casting. Maybe a chance for anyone in the region who has Arcane Knowledge to sense the location of magic being cast.

32. Any healing spell
33. Charm Person
34. Invisibility

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Invis was #1. I'm not sure if I'd count healing spells (purely because of how little the mundane Heal skill can accomplish).

Charm Person is a good one though, who needs social skills?


Anzyr wrote:

Common misconception. As a Wizard advances in level with the help of long duration spells, their available spells actually begin to accumulate at a quadratic rate. Eventually 1/hour level buffs can be cast every two days (allowing you to alternate each day to get more buffs). Spells that are permanent until discharged are even better as they can be accumulated until you have more such effects then there are rounds in a day (I'm a big fan of explosive runes). Minion creating/calling spells are another way that a Wizard can save on slots as they advance in level. Animate Dead gets you a number of spell slot free damage, while even used completely intended Simulacrum provides access to even more spells when you make a half-hd copy of your self.

All of this also discounts the fact that a high level Wizard will almost certainly have access to a permanent demiplane with the double time flowing time trait allowing them get two days of spell preparation out of every one day of "normal time" and allows for 4 hour "normal time" spell preparation and extremely accelerated crafting (which can also save you spell slots).

Of course all of that is on top of the well over 70 (20 or so 7th to 9th level spells) spells per day a Wizard with the appropriate INT bonus gets. If that is a handful of spells to you, I have to ask if you are a Hecatoncheires.

If you're defining "high level wizard" as only levels 19-20, sure, they'll have 70+ spells but even Int 45 gives only 5 (level 1) to 3 (level 9) extra spells. I'm also kinda assuming that any sane wizard is not gonna trade spell slots like Gate or Wish to use utility spells like Unseen Servant or Invisibility.

The permanent demiplane still does not negate the gp cost of crafting and even with the accelerated time 4 hours of rest is not something that can be afforded in many situations (as a GM I need a really good reasoning if the PCs wanna rest in the middle of a dungeon with living beings).

Anyway, I'm not saying wizards aren't game-breaking at high levels. Around level 16-17 the whole game enters the beginning of a singularity. If the PCs have a bit of game mastery and creativity, the game becomes so different that it is unrecognizable from before. My point was that, sure wizards can beat mundanes in certain ways but only for a limited number of times per day (even 20x is 'limited'), with preparation and in very specific ways.

MOST importantly: at sufficiently high levels, certain mundane ways of doing things will ALWAYS beat magical ways. This holds especially true for skills. Invisibility is useless at high levels, as everyone probably has some form of See Invisibility and there are plenty dispel and anti-magic effects. Insanely high Stealth checks can only be beaten with a similarly high Sense Motive. The same holds true for Diplomacy, Bluff and several other skills.
Specialized skill-monkeys can become gods as well at certain levels (albeit at higher levels than wizards) :)


35. Effortless Armor is a 1 min. / level spell that rocks Armor Training and can be made into a continuous magic item for 24,000 gp (12,000 gp to craft). At it's basic level it allows free movement in heavy armor with a -1 to armor check penalty.

36. Tongues allows not merely understanding but full on communication with most everything that speaks or understands speech.

37. Ant Haul allows you to carry a huge amount of equipment and is both low level and long duration, meaning continual ant-haul items only cost 2,000 gp (1,000 gp) to create (maybe less since the duration is actually longer than 1 hour / level but less than 24 or greater).

38. Bestow grace of the champion because full-casters stealing most of the class features of a balanced martial with a single spell is entirely fair.


39. Swift Girding.


My point was really more that this starts around level 5 with Explosive Runes and Shrink Item and gets further exacerbated the higher level a caster goes. Level 7 adds Animate Dead to the mix and it really just gets worse from there. A wizard who prepares explosive runes on his off days and commands (Bloody) skeletons can defeat far more encounters than any mundane (who are also limited, though in terms of healing).

I was actually using a 36 INT (Current maximum is 41 as far as I can determine) with specialist, which gets you over 20 spell levels 7-9.

A few other fun spells:

40. Masterwork Transformation - Craft skill is for mundanes.
41. Blood Money - Money is for mundanes.


Justin Rocket wrote:
This is starting to look like we need some sort of "chance of failure with averse side effects" mechanism for casting. Maybe a chance for anyone in the region who has Arcane Knowledge to sense the location of magic being cast.

Solves nothing.

Chrysanthe Spiros wrote:
28. Prestidigitation. Why waste time and money on cleaning your clothes when a mere cantrip will do the same?

40. Prestidigitation. AGAIN! Makes your cooking the best tasting thing possible. Also colors! Prestidigitation on its own is just amazing...


Petty Alchemy wrote:

Invis was #1. I'm not sure if I'd count healing spells (purely because of how little the mundane Heal skill can accomplish).

Charm Person is a good one though, who needs social skills?

Healing skill should be made more powerful and healing shouldn't be so easy. Also, temp healing should be possible with skills like Perform(Oratory).


MrSin wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
This is starting to look like we need some sort of "chance of failure with averse side effects" mechanism for casting. Maybe a chance for anyone in the region who has Arcane Knowledge to sense the location of magic being cast.

Solves nothing.

Having seen it used quite effectively in other game systems, I disagree.


Justin Rocket wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
This is starting to look like we need some sort of "chance of failure with averse side effects" mechanism for casting. Maybe a chance for anyone in the region who has Arcane Knowledge to sense the location of magic being cast.

Solves nothing.

Having seen it used quite effectively in other game systems, I disagree.

Them being other game systems, I disagree.


MrSin wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
MrSin wrote:
Justin Rocket wrote:
This is starting to look like we need some sort of "chance of failure with averse side effects" mechanism for casting. Maybe a chance for anyone in the region who has Arcane Knowledge to sense the location of magic being cast.

Solves nothing.

Having seen it used quite effectively in other game systems, I disagree.
Them being other game systems, I disagree.

That's a pretty bad argument, for example, "Oh, hell, you mean Shadowrun uses Shamans? We should make sure never to add anything like that to Pathfinder, then!"


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Justin Rocket wrote:
That's a pretty bad argument, for example, "Oh, hell, you mean Shadowrun uses Shamans? We should make sure never to add anything like that to Pathfinder, then!"

Apples to Oranges. Also, we're offtopic. Back to spells!

41. Mad Monkeys, Saves me the effort of finding and training my own monkey swarm.


MrSin wrote:
41. Mad Monkeys, Saves me the effort of finding and training my own monkey swarm.

Or learning to Disarm or Steal!

42. Toppling metamagic'ed Magic Missiles: physical touching is so passe for tripping


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43. Floating Disk - no need for a Strength Score {Tenser strikes again!}


44. Shatter: who needs Sunder anyway?


45. Break. Arguably better than shatter at ruining a martial's day. You don't even have to dispel their magic first, just chain break + break to destroy the item outright.

Dark Archive

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Petty Alchemy wrote:
Invis was #1. I'm not sure if I'd count healing spells (purely because of how little the mundane Heal skill can accomplish).

I would love for the Heal skill to be able to steal some utility from magical healing, among other things.

The Treat Deadly Wound option in PF was a baby-step in the right direction, but just that, a baby-step. Options to not only enhance hit point healing, but to also provide non-magical options for restoring ability damage or assist in the recovery of negative energy levels.


The heal skill is so weak that I've never seen anyone use it past second level. And usually only because no one has bothered to purchase a wand of CLW yet.


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Um.

Thread title... doesn't this list include all spells?


46. Dominate X: because charming is passe
47. Black Tentacles: Why bother grappling someone yourself?
48. Summon X: Who fights for themselves anyway?
49. Locate Object: Why bother looking for things?
50. Scry: Why bother going there yourself?


51. Detect Thoughts
52. Seek Thoughts

Interrogation just became much easier. As did finding the scofflaws at the dinner party preparing to abscond with the MacGuffin.


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53. Mage's Sword. When attacking is too much effort.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
Charm Person is a good one though, who needs social skills?

Giving someone a magical roofie isn't the same as getting them to love you, especially because one allows a fairly easy save and has a limited duration. I'd probably be pissed if I saw you cast that at me and I made it, and if I failed, I'd probably be pissed once it wore off and I put two and two together.


Claxon wrote:

51. Detect Thoughts

52. Seek Thoughts

Interrogation just became much easier. As did finding the scofflaws at the dinner party preparing to abscond with the MacGuffin.

54. Sow Thoughts. Make them think it was their idea in the first place.

/cevah

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Charm lasts days/level, chaoseffect!

55: Discern Lies


56: Glibness: +20 untyped bonus to Bluff, not just one shot, either.
10 minutes a level. The screwed up thing? That spell used to be better!

Summon Nature's Ally/Monster, Planar Binding and Legato Pierce on the Infernal Bargain: We need the fighters around why? The Summons are pretty strong and entirely expendable. 12 HD outsiders with gear are BEASTLY.
At the very highest level the sheer versatility of SU and SLA and Casting you can get with it is crazy.


56 Legend Lore
57 Vision
58 Read Magic


59. Identify
60. The Culinary Complete Chef-Negation:
Create Food and Water, Purify Food and Drink (instant poison negation)
Prestidigitation (worst horse burger in town tastes like Gordan Ramsay filet mignon and cannot be poisoned.)


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Prestidigitation. So good we mentioned it thrice.

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Mind that some of these do things that don't displace mundanes, such as Read Magic and Identify!


Petty Alchemy wrote:
Mind that some of these do things that don't displace mundanes, such as Read Magic and Identify!

Read Magic and Identify can fall under Arcane Knowledge.

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Zwordsman wrote:
16. teleport killed the caravan trade

did anyone else read this like the 80's song "video killed the radio star"...

...or is my age just starting to show.

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Those spells enable special uses of Knowledge Arcana and Spellcraft, but those uses are locked without the spells in the first place. Thus I don't consider them to be crowding out anything.


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