The idea is this: Create Archetypes that can replace the need for Prestige Classes en bloc.
This comes in 2 distinct flavors:
1 is ACFs that are essentially equivalent (or better) than the PrC they are trying to replace. For example, Devouted Defender would be perfect as Barbarian ACF.
The second are the ones that ease the mixing of classes, to replace the need for "fusion" PrCs. Basically, they are ACFs that are meant to be taken by multiclass characters.
Right now I only have a few specific ideas, and some PrCs are probably going to be left out because of reasons.
Here's the first:
Eldritch Knight(Fighter)
Spoiler:
Replace: Bonus feats, Weapon and Armor Training (optional)
Every time and Eldricht Knight would get a bonus feat, or the Weapon Training or Armor Training Class feature (except for the first time he gets them), he may instead decide to gain new spells per day as if he had also gained a level in an arcane spellcasting class he belonged to before adding the prestige class. He does not, however, gain any other benefit a character of that class would have gained, except for additional spells per day, spells known (if he is a spontaneous spellcaster), and an increased effective level of spellcasting. If a character had more than one arcane spellcasting class before becoming an eldritch knight, he must decide to which class he adds the new level for purposes of determining spells per day.
Note: Making this switch is optional. An Eldritch knight may choose each time he gets a Bonus Feat, Weapon or Armor training to increase his caster level, or get the benefits of the class feature. As such, this Archetype can combine with any other Fighter Archetypes. Later, when he has retraining opportunities, the Eldritch Knight may choose to retrain a previous bonus feat, Weapon Training or Armor Training (aside from the first ones) into +1 caster level, but can not gain more than +1 caster level from a single class level (so no retraining Combat Expertise from Lore Warden, but for example could retrain Bonus feats from Monk).
Okay, so I think this is probably too good; at the very least it ends up with waaay higher BAB than the eldritch knight PRC (if it goes for lvl9 spells), however it also gives up at least 3 caster levels instead of just 2 (1 for getting all martial to enter and 1 from the first level), and doesn't get bonus feats and spell critical (spell critical probably should be a feat that needs like Fighter level 15 or something with this version). On the other hand, it's way more flexible and combo-able.
On its only a level, so really this archetype has like 1/4 spell progression, starting at level 1 (unlike paladin and ranger), except level 3 where he gets second level spells. It's a little funky.
Lets say example character joe takes one level wizard and the rest is this archetype:
1- spell level 1, cl 1
3- spell level 1, cl 2
5-spell level 2, cl 3
7- spell level 2, cl 4
Etc...
Is that correct?
Edited: I changed character level 6 to level 7, not thinking
Any ideas on making this a bit more balanced? I was thinking maybe it could take a small hit to BAB if it trades away too many feats and trainings and stuff.
Was thinking something like "if you trade away a weapon training you get no BAB at that level, but can take a bonus feat from either the wizard or the fighter bonus feat list. If you trade away an armor training, you get -1 to your FORT saves but +1 to WILL saves" maybe.
Why not make it an archetype for the magus instead of the fighter? Change out the magus spell list for the wizard spell list, replace spell strike and spell combat with more combative abilities and it would be pretty balanced I think. Never quite achieve the heights that 3.5 edition gishes could get to but c'est la vie.
I wanted to make the Archetype to be as close to the PrC as possible. The Magus doesn't need any tinkering to fill the Gish role. The "point" of Eldritch knight was (in my opinion) to get close to full casting and close to full BAB, while Magus has both lower BAB and lower casting, but more class features.
Think about it like a "retro" class that's higher powered but less mechanically deep.
The thing is, you're not going to be able to balance a fighter that gains bonus feats and a fighter that gains 9th level casting, as such your archetype is impossible to balance. That's why I recommended starting with a magus.
But really, if you want to match the mechanics of the eldritch knight, play the prestige class. Otherwise to match it you have to have wonky BAB, wonky spell casting, and virtually no class features. Why would you want that as an archetype?
Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ShadowcatX wrote:
The thing is, you're not going to be able to balance a fighter that gains bonus feats and a fighter that gains 9th level casting, as such your archetype is impossible to balance. That's why I recommended starting with a magus.
But really, if you want to match the mechanics of the eldritch knight, play the prestige class. Otherwise to match it you have to have wonky BAB, wonky spell casting, and virtually no class features. Why would you want that as an archetype?
Presumably because he values the higher levels of spellcasting and BAB more.
You'll have 17th level casting and (right now) 19BAB if you go Wizard 2/Eldritch Knight Fighter 18. So that's not wonky at all. Plus you still retain 1 Weapon/Armor trainnig, so you can still have gloves of the duelist. Not to mention that spells are ample replacement for the mostly boring numerical stuff that usual combat feats and the trainings give.
I'd go with this over a PrC because Archetypes integrate mechanically better into the game than PrCs, and are simpler to build. For example, this'd still count as Fighter for your favoured class, and could be mixed with Lore Warden to get a "sage-like" warrior-wizard. It also comes into play at a lower level than PrCs do, which is nice imo.
LoneKnave, I did want to say that I appreciate what you're trying to do here, since my comment here and on my PrC thread might lead someone to think I didn't like it.
It's not how I would handle it, but you have some innovative ideas here. Making the EK Fighter keep at least one feat, Armor Training and Weapon Training helps preserve some of the idea that you are still a Fighter.
Having an base class archetype increase the spellcasting of another base class is also interesting (though it makes it feel more like a PrC than a modified base class, simply because it isn't something that has been seen in a base class before).
And having the option to choose feat/armor training/weapon training vs spellcasting definitely adds a lot of versatility in customization. I could keep some feats if I need more, or all my weapon training to boost my fighting.
I don't think I agree with you that archetypes integrate better mechanically. PrC's work just like any other multiclassing, archetypes mess with all your expectations for the class and end up causing a lot of issues (what happens if you remove favored terrain, but not camoflage?).
But I agree that since you play your archetype from level one, it is nice to play your character concept from a lower level.
I wouldn't REPLACE Eldritch Knight with this -- after all, what I like about Eldritch Knight is you're not locked into being a fighter, you can be any class proficient in martial weapons. PrCs should be applicable to multiple classes, archetypes are always going to be one class only (unless you're also house ruling in the multiclass archetypes that I see popping up on this board from time to time).
But as a start for a fighter with spell casting, it's got potential.
I would suggest exchanging Armor Training 2, 3, and Mastery with the Armor-Casting abilities the Magus and Arcane Duelist Bard have.
For qualifications you can dip any class, but the PrC itself is essentially "fighter with casting". Same BAB, same saves, same HD, same skills and bonus combat feats.
I get what you say about "PrCs being for everyone while archetypes are for one class" but any class can dip into an archetype even easier you can get a PrC. That's one of the better points of Archetypes.
Samasboy1 I get what you are saying. This archetype is literally just made for multiclassing, so there's really no confusion in what you get IMO. Also, Archetypes are supposed to look for the kind of stuff you mention (if one doesn't it's a badly made archetype; in the example you give at the very least the ranger should get a really delayed favored terrain or something else to replace camo).
How Does this look... Here is my attempt at Balancing your idea.
Replace Weapon Training 1 with Arcane Strike. Every other Weapon training Increases CL and Spells per day. (This eliminates the Gloves of Dueling issue).
Replace Armor Training 1 With the Ability to cast in Light Armor. Replace Armor Training 2 With Cast in Medium, and replace 3 with Cast in Heavy.
Replace Armor training 4 With the feat Arcane Shield.
This 1> Allows you to cast in armor (something you need), and 2> Cuts out 3 potential caster levels for balance.
Bonus Feats: Starting At Level 2, An Eldrich Knight may sacrifice a Fighter Bonus Feat to instead increase his Caster Level, and Spells Per Day (as well as spells known if a spontaneous caster) of one Arcane Spell casting class by +1.
Nearly Full BAB, and 7th Level Spells... But you would need to give up all of you're Bonus Feats to do it. You are Picking up Arcane Strike, The Ability to cast in Heavy Armor, And the Arcane Shield Feat, which while not great, is very thematic to the Class. You leave Weapon Training and Armor Training to the professionals, instead gaining Magic unmatched by any-one short of a full fledged Wizard.
Even with these "Nerf's" to you're original idea... it STILL may be too good.
