I think you kind of missed Ryn's point.I allow pretty much everything. The only race (besides the "Extreme" races like Gargoyle and such that screw balance sideways) I exercise veto rights over is Strix.
You better have a DAMN good reason why a Strix is in the party, especially if said party contains a Human.
I guess it's harder for me to relate to or believe in numerous races. Our world barely contains humans, and I'm expected to believe there could be dozens of races running around.I know, right?
Our world barely has stage magicians, and I'm expected to believe there are people flying around shooting Fireballs and healing people with magic wands?
our world doesn't even have stage magicians, just people who use a combination of sleight of hand and false compartments and other dirty deceptive tricks to pass themselves off as magicians
the stage magicians of our world, are nothing more than con artists and scammers
it's mostly about suspension of disbelief, i was correcting the part on stage magicians
if we have wizards that turn a handful of bat guano and sulfur into a 45 foot diameter globe of fire, fly without the aid of wings or technology, and dissapear on a dime by solving mathematical equations aloud
i think a few races with odd ascetic features are nothing to worry about
Well our world did have a bunch of races (Neanderthals! Hobbits! Denisovans!) Probably a few more depending on how you split up archaic humans or the vagueness we have towards how long some species persisted. But uh....humans are really good at killing/overwhelming things.
the stage magicians of our world, are nothing more than con artists and scammers
I think you just defined a stage magician tbh. Rynjin's point would be a lot more moot if they really did teleport, turn invisible, etc. We'd might also have new overlords when they finally realize they can abuse their ultimate power.
the stage magicians of our world, are nothing more than con artists and scammersI think you just defined a stage magician tbh. Rynjin's point would be a lot more moot if they really did teleport, turn invisible, etc. We'd might also have new overlords when they finally realize they can abuse their ultimate power.
true
magic is the cheater's way to gaining power
Looking at the ARG, I definitively allow all of the Core and Featured races. Uncommon (and newer) races are on a case by case basis, but usually yes.
If it makes logical sense, is fun for the players, and advances the narrative: I allow it.
My current group has a Drow Noble that couldn't come into town until she proved herself by fighting to defend the town outside the city gates. Another player wanted to play a goblin in a Rise of the Rune Lords campaign. I said he could, as long as he could justify why everyone shouldn't murder him on sight.
I *did* however advise a player against playing a dragon hunter since the group has a dragon rider, lol. I'd have allowed it if he came up with a logical reason why he wouldn't be obsessed with murdering the dragon...or vice versa!
All things being equal, I don't think any one race/class combination can break the game. I even allow (most) 3rd party classes, but I've had to shoot down quite a few 3rd party feats. If a character is too much for you to handle, ask the player to tone it down a bit. If they refuse, attack the group with 5 of the exact same type NPC. If 5 doesn't get it done, send 15.
I *did* however advise a player against playing a dragon hunter since the group has a dragon rider, lol. I'd have allowed it if he came up with a logical reason why he wouldn't be obsessed with murdering the dragon...or vice versa!
I'd love to see the conversation about that. "Hello, what do you think you can do for us?" "Well I'm a dragonslayer, if that means anything to you." "Even mine?" "No, not yours." "Well you just said-" "Look, I also hunt humans sometimes. Do I kill those on sight? What kind of jerk does that!" "I think we'll check you off as a strong maybe..."
"I only hunt evil dragons. You know, the ones that deserve it."
Welp, that was easy.
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Core only most of the time (although nobody has played a halfling or a gnome for a very long time)
I tend to allow some monster races from the bestiaries, but a player has to give me a really good reason to. Also a nice backstory i can exploit.
I permanently disallow any eastern themed race or anthropomorphic animal. I tend to play western games and those things really don't have a place there.
I also really hate when people try to make their characters to be anime/manga-ish. I love manga, but it has no place in my games.
Let's not even begin to mention my hatered towards loli characters.
I also really hate when people try to make their characters to be anime/manga-ish. I love manga, but it has no place in my games.
Its awkward to hate what you love I'd imagine.
I'm liable to allowing any race, even one that I don't like very much.
The exceptions are if that race doesn't exist in my world*, or is overpowered.
* = Homebrew races can always be incorporated to a campaign. I work with my players, not against them.
I also really hate when people try to make their characters to be anime/manga-ish. I love manga, but it has no place in my games.
Let's not even begin to mention my hatered towards loli characters.
Pardon me for being frank, but I find cultural bias to be a trait that a fair DM should be able to get rid of when running a game.
When I run Golarion, any Paizo race is allowed. I actively encourage my players to make strange and interesting choices.
I'm in the process of building the PC races for my homebrew setting (future dark ages fantasy earth):
1. Aasimars (large-sized angel descendants)
2. Tieflings (same as above with devils: Goliath was a tiefling)
3. Androids (created by the dwarfs, then won the civil rights war)
4. Centaurs (angry hippies)
5. Draslings (Entfolk)
6. Drow (former tech giants, last remaining elves)
7. Gnomes (fey a long way from home)
8. Ilthlings (adorable halfling-sized mind flayers)
9. Kobolds (two varieties of the little dragons: winged scholars and stocky soldiers)
10. Orcs (took the place of humans)
11. Suli (same as standard)
12. Tarn (rice-growing yakfolk)
13. Wyvaran (stripped down from the ARG)
14. Yokai (animals given sentience from symbiotic fey spirits)
I'm using 20 points for each race and came close to getting something for each creature type. While some races (centaurs) were very much reworked, others are new wholecloth (ilthlings) or just got a tiny power boost to bring them in line with everyone else (suli).
All published as playable (in Paizo books) races.
I also have races, and racial variants I've built.
I'd consider player built ones on a case by case basis.
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I think you kind of missed Ryn's point.I allow pretty much everything. The only race (besides the "Extreme" races like Gargoyle and such that screw balance sideways) I exercise veto rights over is Strix.
You better have a DAMN good reason why a Strix is in the party, especially if said party contains a Human.
I guess it's harder for me to relate to or believe in numerous races. Our world barely contains humans, and I'm expected to believe there could be dozens of races running around.I know, right?
Our world barely has stage magicians, and I'm expected to believe there are people flying around shooting Fireballs and healing people with magic wands?
our world doesn't even have stage magicians, just people who use a combination of sleight of hand and false compartments and other dirty deceptive tricks to pass themselves off as magicians
the stage magicians of our world, are nothing more than con artists and scammers
it's mostly about suspension of disbelief, i was correcting the part on stage magicians
if we have wizards that turn a handful of bat guano and sulfur into a 45 foot diameter globe of fire, fly without the aid of wings or technology, and dissapear on a dime by solving mathematical equations aloud
i think a few races with odd ascetic features are nothing to worry about
The 'but ... DRAGONS!" (In this case but ... WIZARDS!' Fallacy again ...
Just because one fantastic element exists does not mean all fantastic elements could or should exist.
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I'm liable to allowing any race, even one that I don't like very much.
The exceptions are if that race doesn't exist in my world*, or is overpowered.
* = Homebrew races can always be incorporated to a campaign. I work with my players, not against them.
Pardon me for being frank, but I find cultural bias to be a trait that a fair DM should be able to get rid of when running a game.I also really hate when people try to make their characters to be anime/manga-ish. I love manga, but it has no place in my games.
Let's not even begin to mention my hatered towards loli characters.
It's not a cultural bias if you don't like anime or manga. You can just not like them because you don't like them. Just like I could not like Saturday morning cartoons, or, say, ska music. You are saying someone has to like it because its from another culture?
Besides which did you not read " I love manga but it hasno place in my games"
Like I could says "I love science fiction, but the millennium falcon isn't going to be landing in my capital city any time soon.
I allow whatever could reasonably* exist in the campaign setting.
*) Definition of reasonable: If you have to bend over backwards to justify why you're super-duper-special-and-rare-and-crossed-10,000-miles-of-desert-at-age-3-to -justify-being-in-the-campaign-world, odds are I won't allow it. I'm cruel like that. You could probably do the exact same character concept with something a little closer to home.
This depends on the game.
The last time I gmed PF I allowed every race from ARG except for the dhampir.*
The game ended up having an aasimar, two tieflings, an ifrit, a suli, a drow and a catfolk. It was the freak team and my explanation was that their employer sent out multiple groups on different tasks and put all the freaks together in one team.
In the next PF game I will only allow humans. But it will be a special campaign where all the PCs start of as taldan conscrips commoner or experts.
*In my PF dhampirs are undead and treated as such by society. That makes everything about them easier (like how they react to channeling) and makes then unplayable except in special campaigns.
I still find that hilarious, especially since the rules for how Channel Energy works aren't even that complicated to begin with.
The 'but ... DRAGONS!" (In this case but ... WIZARDS!' Fallacy again ...Just because one fantastic element exists does not mean all fantastic elements could or should exist.
This is not that.
The "Because Dragons/Magic/Wizards" Fallacy directly refers to "X makes no logical sense" with "But, DRAGONS!" being the "rebuttal".
However, what he is saying is, in essence "It doesn't happen in the real world, therefore it shouldn't be able to happen in a fantasy universe (even though said universe is chock full of things that aren't normally able to happen)."
And it's bad logic to begin with.
The different races are, for the most part, treated as different ethnicities and countries and so forth, but with different physiology.
If blacks and whites can coexist without complete genocide being an inevitability, why can't Humans and Elves, in other words?
And you do see the same sort of realistic-ish racism directed at other races as well. The "acceptable" races (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc.) treat the "monster" races (Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, etc.) as scum to be eradicated.
Gee, doesn't that sound like some real life and historical racial tensions?
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The 'but ... DRAGONS!" (In this case but ... WIZARDS!' Fallacy again ...Just because one fantastic element exists does not mean all fantastic elements could or should exist.
This is not that.
The "Because Dragons/Magic/Wizards" Fallacy directly refers to "X makes no logical sense" with "But, DRAGONS!" being the "rebuttal".
However, what he is saying is, in essence "It doesn't happen in the real world, therefore it shouldn't be able to happen in a fantasy universe (even though said universe is chock full of things that aren't normally able to happen)."
And it's bad logic to begin with.
The different races are, for the most part, treated as different ethnicities and countries and so forth, but with different physiology.
If blacks and whites can coexist without complete genocide being an inevitability, why can't Humans and Elves, in other words?
And you do see the same sort of realistic-ish racism directed at other races as well. The "acceptable" races (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc.) treat the "monster" races (Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, etc.) as scum to be eradicated.
Gee, doesn't that sound like some real life and historical racial tensions?
If someone else named a fallacy I'm not aware of, then I can rename it, but I'll say what I mean it to mean, thank you very much.
I am specifically referring to the repeated insistence by many here that because one fantastic element is included in the setting there is no reason to exclude ANY other fantastic element. Once you allow wizards, you must allow Tieflings, talking horses, flying monkeys and anything else in the kitchen sink bag.
I consider that completely false as a proposition right from the get go.
If it's in the ARG and doesn't have racial hit dice, you can play it in my campaigns.
I also allow race builder made races, if i think they are reasonably made.
I still find that hilarious, especially since the rules for how Channel Energy works aren't even that complicated to begin with.
Tell that to those opening the million threads about the topic.
But to be true I just feel that being undead fits the race in question better. Makes more sense for me, feels more right.
As far as what races I allow, it depends on the setting. If it's a casual, kitchen-sink setting like Golarion or Greyhawk, I'll allow anything. "Shock me, I dare you." is my mantra; I love seeing players come up with these crazy concepts that I never would've thought of, because it teaches me more things about the game I had not previously considered.
Sort of like playing Magic: The Gathering; I welcome anyone and everyone to use their best, nastiest, meanest decks against me. Not because I think I have a snowball's chance in hell of winning, but because I might see something awesome that totally slipped under my radar, and I might learn a few new tricks. I ask my D&D/PF players to do the same thing; throw me your craziest, nastiest combo.
But if I'm running a specialized, thematic game(horror, for example), I get pretty restrictive. Specialized games require a certain level of player investment beyond casual beer-n-pretzles play. The gears need to roll as smoothly as possible, so I get really uptight about what I allow. But, my players know this way ahead of time, and we don't do these kinds of games very often.
I'm in the "It depends on the setting" crowd. My players know that there is a certain tiny race that annoys the hell out of me, because I've mostly seen them played in a manner similar to what became known as Fishmalk amongst the WoD community. Confusing utterly random silly acts with good roleplaying of a slightly mad or eccentric character...
Anyway, in our Pathfinder games set in Golarion, all core races are allowed, including (sigh) gnomes. That said, gnomes have only rarely shown up, and I've made it clear that if they are used as nothing more than a carriage for story disrupting jokes, I'll be looking to remove them. Given that I have a pretty good group at the moment, we haven't really had any issues. Out of the "Featured" races, I always allow Aasimar, Dhampir, Ifrits, Oreads, Sylphs, Tieflings and Undines. If there's a good explanation for why they're around, I'll allow Catfolk, Ratfolk and Tengu. From the "Uncommon" races, I allow Changelings, Kitsune, Samsarans, Sulis, and Vishkanya by default (as I find them the easiest to justify being found among normal society); and will allow Gillmen, Gripplie, Nagaji and Vanara, again as long as the players can provide a reasonable justification.
For my homebrew game, it's all core races except for gnomes. Humans, and Elves are the most numerous, followed by Dwarves, then Halflings- out of the 9 noble houses, 3 of them are Elvish (including the Imperial House), 3 are Human, 2 are Dwarven and the final one is Halfling. Half-Elves are very common as well, and are well represented in both the human and elven houses. As for the other races, Aasimar and Tieflings are far more common that you'd think (particularly Daemon-Blooded Tieflings, for reasons tied into the background of the world), the elemental-blooded races pop up from time to time, as do Samsarans, Dhampir and Fetchlings. The animal races have their own tribes and often live outside of the main population centres, though they live under Imperial rule as well, so players can use them if they wish. Vishkanya and Kitsune tend to live in the cities and, while not common, are far from unknown (though they often blend in and pass for other human or elf, especially as many of them work as spies and so on), hence they are allowed by default.
My group has only four standard bans: Drow, Druegar, Svirfneblin, and Strix. Mainly since undercommon races are a bit overpowered by our perspective, and they really don't fit in most above world campaigns. Strix are banned simply because people like to play humans in our group and we had a person play a strix once, that ended badly. The Strix character attempted pvp after the group broke a Kitsune member, no less out, of jail. Ended up killing the campaign right there.
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My group has only four standard bans: Drow, Druegar, Svirfneblin, and Strix. Mainly since undercommon races are a bit overpowered by our perspective, and they really don't fit in most above world campaigns. Strix are banned simply because people like to play humans in our group and we had a person play a strix once, that ended badly. The Strix character attempted pvp after the group broke a Kitsune member, no less out, of jail. Ended up killing the campaign right there.
We have a Strix player in our group, and it's a royal pain in the butt. I get that the player is just role-playing the race, but anything and everything we do that involves interacting in towns, quest-giving npc's, etc, we always have to keep him on a leash or we risk getting lynched. Add in the fact that this particular character doesn't speak common for some reason, so only 1 other player(out of 6) can even speak to him.
It was a cute concept at first, but many sessions later, it's just annoying as hell. I'm definitely banning them when I take a turn as DM, simply because of how abrasive they are, against what is a mostly human setting. Yes, I am amending my above statement of usually allowing everything, to disallow Strix.
My group has only four standard bans: Drow, Druegar, Svirfneblin, and Strix. Mainly since undercommon races are a bit overpowered by our perspective, and they really don't fit in most above world campaigns. Strix are banned simply because people like to play humans in our group and we had a person play a strix once, that ended badly. The Strix character attempted pvp after the group broke a Kitsune member, no less out, of jail. Ended up killing the campaign right there.We have a Strix player in our group, and it's a royal pain in the butt. I get that the player is just role-playing the race, but anything and everything we do that involves interacting in towns, quest-giving npc's, etc, we always have to keep him on a leash or we risk getting lynched. Add in the fact that this particular character doesn't speak common for some reason, so only 1 other player(out of 6) can even speak to him.
It was a cute concept at first, but many sessions later, it's just annoying as hell. I'm definitely banning them when I take a turn as DM, simply because of how abrasive they are, against what is a mostly human setting. Yes, I am amending my above statement of usually allowing everything, to disallow Strix.
I might be misreading the situation, but it seems to me that the player was deliberately provoking said ban.
I'm in the process of building the PC races for my homebrew setting (future dark ages fantasy earth):
I'm not sure what that phrase actually translates as.
8. Ilthlings (adorable halfling-sized mind flayers)
That sounds like an inspired idea, however bizarre. :)
I might be misreading the situation, but it seems to me that the player was deliberately provoking said ban.My group has only four standard bans: Drow, Druegar, Svirfneblin, and Strix. Mainly since undercommon races are a bit overpowered by our perspective, and they really don't fit in most above world campaigns. Strix are banned simply because people like to play humans in our group and we had a person play a strix once, that ended badly. The Strix character attempted pvp after the group broke a Kitsune member, no less out, of jail. Ended up killing the campaign right there.We have a Strix player in our group, and it's a royal pain in the butt. I get that the player is just role-playing the race, but anything and everything we do that involves interacting in towns, quest-giving npc's, etc, we always have to keep him on a leash or we risk getting lynched. Add in the fact that this particular character doesn't speak common for some reason, so only 1 other player(out of 6) can even speak to him.
It was a cute concept at first, but many sessions later, it's just annoying as hell. I'm definitely banning them when I take a turn as DM, simply because of how abrasive they are, against what is a mostly human setting. Yes, I am amending my above statement of usually allowing everything, to disallow Strix.
To be fair, the Strix player in my group has been playing TTRPG's maybe 1 year? Somewhere around there, not terribly long.
Maybe if a player can convince me that they can play one without being an intolerable jackass, I'll reconsider.
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Has anyone tried making a world of freaks instead?
Yep. As stated above, this is the general assumption in my group's homebrew setting. The world is full of fantastical races living alongside one another, you may be new to this specific area but chances are someone in the region has at least heard of your species, if not met another before, and unless the area is particularly xenophobic (one country is immensely humanistic, and either kills, enslaves, or exiles non-humans [with a small handful of exceptions] within their borders) you'll likely be considered a curiosity but nothing more.
My players have said multiple times that if I'd had the homebrew races ready when we began the campaign rather than completing them partway through, those who played "normal" races (save one) would have probably played one of the more bizarre options.
I normally allow what's in the Core book. Anything else has to be run past me, and if I think that its not too off the wall (subjective, I know), and goes well with the current campaign, I will allow it. My players haven't ever given me an argument about it.
I've toyed with the idea of settlements of non-core races. Really, they have to exist in some capacity, unless the PC had their custom creation shipped in from another plane, or are some kind of unique template freak(my half-golem PC falls into this category).
The DM has to be willing to play up that part, though. I've seen countless "freak show" PC's, but I have rarely, if ever, come across an actual non-core race settlement in-game(aside from time spent in Sigil). Coming across a town of Tieflings, or a city of dragonblooded subraces would be pretty cool.
I personally think it's silly to have hundreds if not thousands of different sapient species. Do we really need a whole new race for every little thing? What I allow is the following.
COMMON PLAYER RACES
1. Humans
2. Dwarves (merger of regular and duergar)
3. Elves (merged with dark elves and other elf like monsters)
4. Gnomes (merger of regular and all the various gnome like monsters)
5. Orcs (Merger of Orcs and Hobgoblins. There are no half-orcs)
Various sorts of planes touch versions of the above races are possible.
OTHER RACES
6. Goblin! :D
7. Trolls (including all the subtypes)
8. Giantkin (Ogres, Cyclops, Ettins. All the lesser "mutant" giant types)
9. True Giants (Elemental touched greater giants)
10. Dragons (Well you've gotta have dragons)
11. Reptilians (merger of Lizardfolk, Troglodytes and Serpentfolk concepts)
12. Deep Ones (merger of Sahuagin, Skum, Locathah and Ceratiodi)
No other animal races for every conceivable type of animal out there!
So ya in my world there's a grand total of 12 sapient races and that's it (not including outsiders). Within those races there's all sorts of different cultures and ethnicities to give it flavor.
All this talk of races really does get me feeling it's time to run an "evil only" campaign soon to give some of the monster races an airing.
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I also really hate when people try to make their characters to be anime/manga-ish. I love manga, but it has no place in my games.Its awkward to hate what you love I'd imagine.
Yeah, if you've read what i wrote...
I love manga and anime. What i hate are anime fanboys who have to shove their mangaish sensibilities everywhere. If i say i am running a western themed game, i will not OK your asian monk named Takagi whose every other sentence is some sort of philosophical spouting. In Japanese. That is not fun. And no, a mysterious stranger from the east is also not acceptable, it has been done to death.
We have a dude in our medieval, western LARP who insist on playing a very asian themed character. He shows up wearing a kimono and babbles in Japanese around everyone. The last straw was when he appeared with a seven foot sword. Dude. No.
As for Loli characters, first i found them very creepy, and after several people insisted ad infinum to play them in my games, and subsequently disrupted them greatly, i began to hate them.
Well our world did have a bunch of races (Neanderthals! Hobbits! Denisovans!) Probably a few more depending on how you split up archaic humans or the vagueness we have towards how long some species persisted. But uh....humans are really good at killing/overwhelming things.
I tried something similar once, and it was quickly shot down by my players. I have managed to incorporate Neanderthals back into the mix, though.
Races I allow for the most part in my campaigns.
Dwarves, elves, gnomes, half elves and half orcs, halflings, humans, aasimars, catfolk, dhampirs, drows, fetchlings, goblins, hobgoblins, ifrits, kobolds, orcs, oreads, ratfolk, sylphs, tengus, teiflings, undines, changlines, gripplis, kitsunes, nagaji, sulis, vanaras.
That's it, and some are not allowed in certain campaigns due to their settings which they will know before hand.
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That's it, and some are not allowed in certain campaigns due to their settings which they will know before hand.
I agree with that. Part of a player's job is to make a character that's appropriate to the campaign/setting.
Has anyone tried making a world of freaks instead?
If ever get to run Planescape I'll certainly allow any race the players want to bring to table. Well, maybe not Pit Fiend. Well, perhaps a Pit Fiend with a good backstory.
Still no catfolk though . . .
And you do see the same sort of realistic-ish racism directed at other races as well. The "acceptable" races (Humans, Elves, Dwarves, etc.) treat the "monster" races (Orcs, Goblins, Gnolls, etc.) as scum to be eradicated.
Gee, doesn't that sound like some real life and historical racial tensions?
Faulty comparison. Orcs and gnolls (and hobgoblins, drow and kobolds) started the racial wars because they are Evil. Goblins...well, they aren't trying to exterminate anyone, but they're still Evil.
Of course, non-Pathfinder worlds might be different, but that's how things generally stand. Whether it's by upbringing or nature, a closer comparison would be comparing the hobgoblins/orcs to the nazis, or Al Qaeda. Calling them a persecuted minority is giving them waaay too much credit.
i will not OK your asian monk named Takagi whose every other sentence is some sort of philosophical spouting.
Indeed. Only in hiding one's identity...can one truly be known.
Hwah.I actually think eastern-style characters do fairly well in Westerns, thanks to the whole railroad thing. Not to mention Shanghai Noon. But it depends on how they're played.
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Lets get real folks, We all know that Humans, Elves, Dwarves, Orcs and Hobbits are the races allowed
Well I want to play an orc barbarian working against Sauron for all the atrocities he committed against him and his people in life.
And not fair! You let Joe play the weird hobbit with a template and verbal tic. If he gets to play a guy who yells "GOLLUM!" every few seconds I want something special too.
Has anyone tried making a world of freaks instead?
I've done up a campaign where the player choices were Orc, Half-Orc, Goblin, Hobgoblin, Kobold, or Lizardman. Not sure if that counts.