Hey all! After finishing this guide to one of my favorite PrCs about a week ago, I thought I'd make a post about it here to gain some more exposure, and to serve as a discussion thread.
zurr i like, and thank you for the shout out.
i would suggest reconsidering the sacred servant however. the ability to add a d6 to your channel is very useful and the abilty to add to your dc is situationally useful. i would suggest since you can max your weapon anyways but raising your dice and dc is much harder it is a rather potent ability.
a deathless initiate halforc could be a nasty holy vindicator, and if going paladin the halfling favored class bonus is nice, especially if you go hospitaler.
Angelic BLood is kind of amusing.
noble scion of war is nice too
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Something tells me you like League of Legends. Maybe because you used two different characters.
I found it a good read, even at 2 in the morning. I definitely would look at the PrC of Low Templar. 2 level dip gives you 2BaB, +1 against CE outsiders(could be useful), +2 Bluff and diplomacy, and(the real kicker) the ability to forgo the additional damage from criting to make them Nauseated/Sickened/Fatigued/Deafened/Blinded/or Staggered for a round(doubled for x3 crit weapons, and so on and so forth). If I am reading this right(which I might not. It is 2 in the morning) then being able to Crit, Make them _____, AND tack on the capstone of VH would be a lovely ability. The prereqs are really easy to get into, but the skills are poor(Fighter poor). Being a human, however, can mitigate this AND give you the necessary requirements if you put favored class points into skill points instead of HP or the racial stat bonus.
Really a good guide. I'll check in in a while and see how it goes.
I have a question concerning the guide. I might be overlooking something but how do get dimension door as a life oracle (for example in your example build?).
I'v been looking around but is there a way to have both charisma based divine casting (oracle of life, needed for channeling) and cha bonus to AC with some kind of multiclass, feat,...? It seems you either Take cleric with oracle of lore to get the AC bonus and channeling but no cha casting. Or you take oracle of life to get channel and cha casting but not cha to AC. I want my cake AND eat it! Is there a solution for this?
@Abraham: I added in Deathless Initiate and noted that on Sacred Servant, and will take a look at Noble Scion next time I update the guide.
@Glutton: It is a fairly interesting prospect, but I feel that a situational 1 damage on things next to you wouldn't be worth it unless you're fighting them exclusively. Still, adding it to the list to add.
@Tirq: Guilty as charged. I'll definitely take a look at the class and see if the wording is legitimate.
@Scorpioni: I don't know if I understand your first question. Oracles have a list of spells they pull from to make their own list of spells known, and it's just a matter of selecting DD as a 4th level spell once you gain them. And unfortunately no, not without going into 3rd party stuff. The closest I can find is Osyluth Guile which lets you get your charisma bonus as a dodge bonus to AC against one opponent.
The reason I ask about dimension door is that according to: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door, dimension door is not a cleric spell. I'm away from my books so I can't check. Would make for an interesting combat build if it was possible though.
I read your guide as I playing a HV myself and I have to admit, I don't really agree with the majority of your guide.
The HV is by design a Sword & Shield fighter. Also the Channel Energy mechanic make it perfect for any Battle-Cleric.
As Full Cleric you can join the Ranks of the Vindicator at level 8 (Clc 7/HV1).
From their you will be the indestructable bollwark and the scourge of all Demons/Elementals (depending on what channel energy you use).
Let's start like your guide
Armor & Weapon Prof. (Blue): You will get heavy armor & Martial weapons - Bingo you can use Fullplate and 2-H Swords/Hammers (Earthbreaker ftw^^).
Spells per day (green): You don't get the same progress a full caster will get, but hey you are a front line brute/shield. :)
Vindicators Shield(BLUE): With the errata from Jason this ability is awesome! You will get your channel energy dice amount as sacred bonus to AC until someone managed to beat this improved AC (e.g. at level 7/4, you will get AC +6 additional to all other boni) and the best thing is, you don't even have to have the shield equipped, strap it to your back and it's fin (thanks Jason for this!).
Stigmata (green): Yes it's a very flexible boni and the secondary effect (stops all other bleeds) s nice. But face it, a simple CLW or Heal check will stop them too, without damaging you further. Also the Bonus is half-level, so in the lower part not really this big.
Faith healing (green): If you get hit, you can negate most of the hits with one spell, which is nice, especially if you can use any prepared spell as a cure spell. :)
Channel Stuff: Very nice if you are dispatched against your "alignment channel enemy" (as good cleric take "evil outsider") and let's face it, as higher your level is the more demons/devils etc. you will face :)
Also look at the versatile channel, if you want to use it for more then healing/damage :)
For the Races:
I have to disagree with the orange Dwarf, even if dwarfes will get a Cha-Penalty.
Let's see the pro/con for dwarf:
Con:
-1 Channel per Day
20 ft speed (lets face it, you will wear a full plate, so this will not matter at all!)
Pro:
+ lvl HP
+ 2 Wis
+ Darkvision
+ 2 saves vs. spells etc.
+ 4 vs Bull Rush & Trip
So based on all this my suggestion for a HV is:
Grab 7 or 8 level cleric (to get the 2nd domain power), then go into HV. Get a big 2H Weapon (Greatsword or Earthbreaker) and a Sword-Shield Combo.
If combat starts, buff yourself, charge into the front line and hold this line, so your background caster & rangers are safe. :)
Don't forget you can also deal a lot of damage while you are in front line (especially vs. evil outsider).
Clerics have some of the best buff spells, use them (e.g. Divine Might, greater Magic Vestment (on Shield & Armor if needed)).
As I said, I'm playing a dwarven Clc8/HV3 myself and it's simply awesome.
You can switch between Tank and Damage Monster easily and you support your group with spell, steel and protection.
The reason I ask about dimension door is that according to: http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/d/dimension-door, dimension door is not a cleric spell. I'm away from my books so I can't check. Would make for an interesting combat build if it was possible though.
You're right. Dimension Door isn't a spell available by default to clerics/oracles so I think Zurr made a mistake in his guide.
Though there are very specific cases for a Holy Vindicator to get dimension door without multiclassing into an arcane class. Travel Domain cleric gets dimension door as a domain spell; a Eldritch Heritage (arcane) oracle can pick up dimension door with the Improved Eldritch Heritage feat; and paladin with Unsanctioned Knowledge can pick up Dimension Door via Bard spell list.
@Atarlost: That's a really good point, I'll make a note of that.
@Scorponi: Wow, I am the dumb. I have no idea how I overlooked that. Thanks to Protoman, though, for pointing out a few ways to get that, I'll be amending the guide with changes tonight, so expect some sections to be overhauled.
@Tryn: I'll certainly take another look at dwarves, you make a good argument.
Thanks for the info Protoman. Seems if I go the Oracle route, I need the eldritch heritage feats to get access to dimension door. It would make the dimensional feat chain very long though... 6 feats to get to dimensional dervish. Painful...
Thanks for the info Protoman. Seems if I go the Oracle route, I need the eldritch heritage feats to get access to dimension door. It would make the dimensional feat chain very long though... 6 feats to get to dimensional dervish. Painful...
Yea I had to give up on that idea with my own oracle character. Though out of all the choices, spontaneous dimension door with dimensional agility seems more worthwhile than prepared spellcasting.
Would the channeling you get from the Aasimar Purifier Oracle archetype qualify for the requirements for Holy Vindicator?
@Scorpioni: Not by RAW, but I can see a case for getting it and simultaneously hitting the Alignment Channel Prereq.
Regarding getting Dimension Door, an Ancient Lorekeeper could do it by going Oracle 7, Holy Vindicator 3, then taking Oracle 8 to get it as a bonus spell. You wouldn't start DD feats until 11, but it saves you from needing Eldritch Heritage. I'll be noting this and other ways of getting this fantastic spell, but it's likely going to go down in color.
@Scorpioni: Not by RAW, but I can see a case for getting it and simultaneously hitting the Alignment Channel Prereq.
Regarding getting Dimension Door, an Ancient Lorekeeper could do it by going Oracle 7, Holy Vindicator 3, then taking Oracle 8 to get it as a bonus spell. You wouldn't start DD feats until 11, but it saves you from needing Eldritch Heritage. I'll be noting this and other ways of getting this fantastic spell, but it's likely going to go down in color.
OOO! Totally forgot about Ancient Lorekeeper. Good call!
With the recent FAQ ruling reversal, half-elves can totally qualify for Ancient Lorekeeper.
But does Life Oracle actually qualify for Holy Vindicator? The HV says it needs "Channel energy class feature" as a pre-req, but Life Oracle's channel ability is really more of a Revelation class feature (channel).
Yeah not sure about the life oracle's "channel" qualifying for holy vindicator.
On the other hand, I found something else for this guide: adept channel. A feat with some weird requirements but it gives you some limited channel energy, allowing for example a Life oracle to fully qualify (in case by RAW it doesn't). It also allows other classes to qualify (Druid? Inquisitor?).
It only gives you 2 uses/day (can be upgraded with extra channel) but it might be a worthwhile option for vindicators less interested in channeling and more in the other class features.
Zurr, maybe you can update the dimension door part with the eldritch heritage (arcane) + paragon surge trick. It might deserve some mention in your guide since it is especially useful for Holy Vindicators to get access to Dimension door.
It might also be good to mention both Half Elves, Humans with Racial Heritage and Aasimars with Scion of Humanity and Racial Heritage can cast this spell.
Protoman,
If I'm reading this FAQ ruling correct, this means that aasimar with scion of humanity can choose the human favored class bonus for Oracles (extra spells known) instead of the aasimar one (1/2 lvl to the effect of a revelation)? That would be awesome and think also deserves mention if it works. Human, Half Elf and Aasimar really are the big vindicator races :)
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Not a bad guide.
I would have added more info on the BEST 8th level domains for clerics and why.
Maybe one or two more Sample builds.
Especially since you trumpeted a FALCATA build and never showed one.
I love HV's so here is a sample build I think is worth mentioning.
Example:
The War Vindicator
Deities: Iomedae or Gorum
Build: Cleric 8
Domains: Glory(Heroism), and Destruction (RAGE-Gorumite) or War (Tactics-Imoedae)
Scores:
Str 16
Dex 8
Con 14
Int 13
Wis 15
Cha 12
Traits: Sacred Conduit, Fortune's Favored.
1 Aura, Channel, Touch of Glory and +2 To OFFENSIVELY CHANNEL, EITHER Destructive Smite (Gorumite) or Seize the Initiative (Imoedae), F-Selective Channel, H- Combat Expertise
2
3-Power Attack
4
5-Improved Trip
6
7-Alignment Channel
8- AURA OF HEROISM, RAGE(Gorumite) or WEAPON MASTER (Imoedae)
These are two of the best Gods for Kicking A$$.
The Imoedaen is a Squad Leader and the Gorumite is a Brute.
The traits and Glory Domain give them and effective Channel DC as if their Cha was 18 instead of 12. High enough for it to matter when channeling vs undead or evil Outsiders.
The Imoedaen fights with Longsword and uses a Heavy shield and his Sieze the Initiative power to help his Wizard get the first spell off.
The Gorumite Power Attacks with the Greatsword and uses Destructive Smite to make it hurt more.
The spell of choice is DIVINE FAVOR, which is bumped by the Fortune's Favored trait. Also makes a Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier a great buy.
Both have OK AC for BACKUP MELEE'rs and that divine favor buff is awesome.
Touch of Glory is pretty sweet to use on an ally as well.
The main combat tactic is to flank and trip (by far the best CM) to make foes suck a -4 to attack and AC, standing up provokes.
Skills are a decent 2+1 (Int)+1 (Human)+1 (Favored) for 5 per level.
Level 8 is where they start to diverge.
They both get the Sweet, Swift action AURA OF HEROISM to buff the party for 8rds a day.
The Imoedaen got 8 rds of Weapon Master (which gets him Gtr Trip, Cleave, Channel Smite) a whole slew of other situation based Combat feats available on the fly. You are now a fighter-lite.
The Gorumite gets RAGE for pete's sake. Wield a +1 Furious Greatsword and you can go to town on dudes.
From here they go 10 levels of Holy Vindicator
9 HV1- Quicken Channel
10 HV2
11 HV3-Weapon Prof: Falcata
12 HV4
13 HV5-Critical Focus
14 HV6
15 HV7-Staggering Critical
16 HV8
17 HV9-Quicken Spell
18 HV10
19 - Divine Interference
20
By 9, you exchange your Breastplate for FULLPLATE, have a JINGASA OF THE FORTUNATE SOLDIER and Gloves of Skilled Maneuvers (trip)
Heavy Armor+Vindicator's Shield= Tank!!
Also evil Outsiders in pathfinder are a pretty common occurrence most games. So being able to burn two channels to blast twice in a single round rocks (you have a phalactry of channel right?)
Now with a Nice and High AC you can stop being 60/40 warrior/caster and just become a wrecking ball.
Stack Stigmata on your to hit, with Divine Favor (capping at +4 from your trait) and Rage and Aura of Heroism. Sweet. You start to wonder what to use your swift action for since you have a couple. Go with the Aura first cause all allies benefit.
Falcata proficiency was touched on in the guide so go hard and pay for Keen. Start to focus on crit feats which are nice!
Later, your class abilities shine. You are a real Tank. Heavy Armor that can hit REALLY HARD!
BAB 17 and Ninth level spells.
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I think it is important to point out that the elf (or half elf) Favoured class Oracle bonus 1/2 per level can be added to "Channel"
for example a 9th level Elf Oracle(Life) 8 / Holy Vindicator 1
has 7d6 Channel Dice or a +7 sacred bonus to ac with Vindicators shield.
much better than situational at best.
In the sample entry builds you didn't mention Cleric 8 witch gives you the second domain powers witch can be quite usefull for a single level delay.
Also, the guide would benefit a lot from a section dedicated to what domains are the most usefull to pick. My suggestions are War(tactics) and Travel. Both are very powerfull with their level 8 option.
What do you think about a dex-based taldan style Swashbuckler 2 / Life Oracle 4 / HV ?
Slashing Grace for dex2dam with your Falcata and Buckler in the other hand.
Panache and Charmed Life on a Cha-based character synergize greatly.
Feats are pretty much set with WF, SG and Alignment channel...Half-elf nets you proficiency.
Vindicators Shield(BLUE): With the errata from Jason this ability is awesome! You will get your channel energy dice amount as sacred bonus to AC until someone managed to beat this improved AC (e.g. at level 7/4, you will get AC +6 additional to all other boni) and the best thing is, you don't even have to have the shield equipped, strap it to your back and it's fin (thanks Jason for this!).
Is there a source for this?
