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Ok, so I was investigating the best route for a melee ranged mounted archer today and I thought of a tough brain exercise...
Suppose I was 4 levels cavalier and 6 levels beast master Ranger. I pick up the horse master feat, which allows me to have my character level dictate my abilities of my mount. So, 10 druid levels for my mount, awesome. My beast master also gives me levels for animal companions, my ranger level -3, so level 3 gonna bite your face off tiger.
What if I add boon companion?
Benefit: The abilities of your animal companion or familiar are calculated as though your class were 4 levels higher, to a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level. If you have more than one animal companion or familiar, choose one to receive this benefit. If you lose or dismiss an animal companion or familiar that has received this benefit, you may apply this feat to the replacement creature.
Special: You may select this feat more than once. The effects do not stack. Each time you take the feat, it applies to a different animal companion or familiar.
The wording implies that I can add this to my tiger, even though I already have an animal companion at max druid level... Is that correct? Then at level 16, because of a class feature from the Ranger, I would have two level 16 animal companions, at the cost of 4 levels of cavalier, and 2 feats. Is all of that legal?
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Or, another thought exercise, is the mounted fury archetype from the barbarian. Would his animal companion for his mount stack with the levels from the cavalier feat? Would the level of his companion be (character level) + (barbarian level - 4), for a level 32 AC? Is that a bit ridiculous? (I choose the barbarian for this example because they can add even more power to their mounts when they rage...)
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Multiples are from Beast Master Ranger:
Animal Companion (Ex): A beast master forms a close bond with an animal companion. This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability except that the ranger's effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3. The ranger gains a +2 bonus on wild empathy and Handle Animal checks made regarding his animal companion. Unlike a normal ranger, a beast master's choice of animal companion is not limited to a subset of all possibile animal companion choices—he may choose freely among all animal companion choices, just as a druid can.
The beast master may have more than one animal companion, but he must divide up his effective druid level between his companions to determine the abilities of each companion. For example, a beast master with an effective druid level of 4 can have one 4th-level companion, two 2nd-level companions, or one 1st-level and one 3rd-level companion. Each time a beast master's effective druid level increases, he must decide how to allocate the increase among his animal companions (including the option of adding a new 1st-level companion). Once an effective druid level is allocated to a particular companion, it cannot be redistributed while that companion is in the ranger's service (he must release a companion or wait until a companion dies to allocate its levels to another companion). The share spells animal companion ability does not give the ranger the ability to cast a single spell so that it affects all of his animal companions. This ability replaces hunter's bond.
And
Strong Bond (Ex): At 12th level, the ranger strengthens his bond with his animal companions. The ranger's effective druid level for his animal companions is now equal to his ranger level; he may immediately allocate these additional levels to his companions as he sees fit. This ability replaces camouflage.
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So, the two level 16 mounts come from the following math:
Class levels:
Cavalier 4
Ranger 12
and feats:
horse master (use character level for mount) and boon companion (+4 druid level to one animal companion, up to character level).
So... character level 16 = my mount
Ranger 12 + 4 from boon companion = level 16 animal companion (aside from the mount).
I haven't found any rules stating you can't have an animal companion, or anything like that, be a higher level than you.
A similar instance would be the level 20 wizard with eldritch heritage to gain character level - 3 more effective wizard levels for your familiar (eldritch heritage explicitly states that it stacks with existing wizard levels...) I still haven't heard of that being illegal in any way either (though there's no real benefit to it...)
The second example is a little more... interesting (see second post)? Having 32 effective druid levels in an animal companion for a mount is pretty ridiculous.
Actually, the proposed build should be legal per FAQ.
Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
This same answer applies to multiclassed cavalier/rangers.
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/19/13
Beastmaster isn't necessary to have multiple companions, just to get the animal companion to character level -4 before Boon Companion (and presumably provide some mounted archery ability). A Cavalier/Druid could have two full power animals by 7th level. I believe that your effective Druid level is always limited to no higher than your actual character level though.
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@Bizbag Thats just for the feat itself, and the levels it adds right?
For instance, the second post. Level 4 cavalier level 16 barbarian with a horse mount.
Horse Master feat gives me my character level as effective druid levels in determining the powers of my mount. The barbarian adds barbarian levels - 4 to the effective druid levels to my mount. So the math looks like:
(Character level) + (Barbarian level - 4) = 32! 32 effective druid levels in determining the power and abilities of my mount. A cavalier druid multiclass would get 36 effective druid levels for a mount.
Since it doesn't use boon companion at all, technically you would be allowed to do this. "To a maximum effective druid level equal to your character level" doesn't apply since you are not using that feat.
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And, continuing the graph (it's not a mathematical calculation, but continuation of an established pattern) 32 effective druid levels in your AC would grant:
25 HD, BaB 19, 13 feats, +20 nat Armor, +10 str and dex, +5 inherit bonuses to stats.
Versus 20 effective druid levels:
16 HD, BaB 12, 8 feats, +12 nat armor, +6 str and dex, +3 inherit bonuses to stats.
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@Bizbag If the description says it functions as a druid's animal companion... Then is should still have this function :
"Class Level: This is the character's druid level. The druid's class levels stack with levels of any other classes that are entitled to an animal companion for the purpose of determining the companion's statistics."
FAQ mentions that Cavalier levels stack with druid levels:
Cavalier: Do animal companion levels from the druid class stack with cavalier mount levels?
If the animal is on the cavalier mount list and on the list of animal companions for your other class, your cavalier and druid levels stack to determine the animal's abilities. If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
This same answer applies to multiclassed cavalier/rangers.
(Note that the design team discourages players from having more than one companion creature at a time, as those creatures tend to be much weaker than a single creature affected by these stacking rules, and add to the bookkeeping for playing that character.)
—Pathfinder Design Team, 06/19/13
So we know that cavalier levels stack with ranger levels, and druid levels... so why not Mounted Fury levels?
@Xenrac Read above, and note there's no difference in wording between the barbarian archetype's wording and the ranger's:
...This ability functions as a druid's animal companion, using the barbarian's level –4 as her effective druid level. This companion must be one that she is capable of riding and is suitable as a mount...
...This ability functions like the druid animal companion ability (which is part of the Nature Bond class feature), except that the ranger's effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3.
So those stack (I think you mentioned that they do, but I wasn't entirely clear on that).
Horse Master states:
Benefit: Use your character level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
Normal: You use your cavalier level to determine your effective druid level for determining the powers and abilities of your mount.
1. I believe that since in the normal case, a level 19 Mounted Fury level 1 cavalier would not exclusively use his cavalier level to determine his mount's abilities (for a effective druid level of 1).
2. If that's the way that works, and I hope I'm right on point 1, then they should stack because the only difference in wording between the two is the difference of change from "cavalier" to "character".
3. In the sense of source, the feat is one source of effective druid levels (your character level), and then your barbarian would be another source of effective druid levels.
4. ALL of the language describing animal companions uses the 'set' language. "This ability functions as a druid's animal companion, using the barbarian's level –4 as her effective druid level." "except that the ranger's effective druid level is equal to his ranger level – 3." 'is' and 'as' are both 'set' terms, not 'add' terms, yet those stack too... There's numerous examples, and if I'm not incorrect, ALL animal companion class features use the 'set' language.
Per the FAQ I posted it is clear that you can stack Animal Companion and Mount together as long as the creature you're stacking your levels for is available from both class features. I don't think that would allow you to "double dip" using Horse Master though.
I'm also not sure that there are any rules for advancing animal companions beyond an effective druid level of 20, so this tactic might run into a roadblock around 12th level even if it were allowed (which I'd say it shouldn't be)
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My point is not to argue, and I apologize if I seem that way at all (I'm a bit tired and got a little lazy with rereading posts to make sure they are upbeat and positive). My reason for bringing this up:
1. To get across that this is an actual problem that by RAW allows a serious bending of the rules.
2. That it ought to get fixed.
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Good points Devilkiller, but what happens to the level 25 epic adventure druid? His animal companion stays behind at 16 HD?
I think the graphs should be allowed to be extended, to be fair to familiars and animal companions. I don't think that you should be able to have a familiar or animal companion above your character level though.
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The wording implies that I can add this to my tiger, even though I already have an animal companion at max druid level... Is that correct? Then at level 16, because of a class feature from the Ranger, I would have two level 16 animal companions, at the cost of 4 levels of cavalier, and 2 feats. Is all of that legal?
in PFS: no, thats where you can only have one animal at a time. but as you're talking 16th level, i feel safe to presume this isn't for PFS.
since they came out with the FAQ on cavalier mounts: No
you're saying , can i have a Horse mount, and use a feat to make it my character level, and then take the other as my other animal companion. But your Cavalier and Ranger levels will stack already for a horse.
Beastmaster Ranger would let you have multiple animal companions, but you'd still use your total effective druid level to divvy them up, which would stack from Cavalier if you took a horse Mount. If you took horse master, your EDL would still be your character level for your Mount, but that maxes out your Effective Druid Level and limits its application to your mount. so at 16th level, you'd have 16 levels of Mount from horse master, or 4 levels of mount for your horse, and 12 levels of effective druid for your tiger. Boon companion would help one or the other, so you'd end up with either an EDL 8 horse & EDL 12 tiger, or an EDL 16 tiger and an EDL 4 horse.
one way or another, like the FAQ says, you're going to end up with a weaker animal companion or mount, which it may be better to just abandon, or consolidate.
Horse master and boon companion won't help you get more than your character level in effective druid level. boon companion multiple times won't help either, since you're still limited up to your total character level for your effective druid level. So pack master with every feat boon companion doesn't work.
now... Aasimar with nature oracle, enhancing its Mount with its racial oracle favored class... that can get beyond the character level limit.
ShadowcatX has it, best explanation to date!
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Aasimar Nature Oracle can get beyond character level.Please elaborate, my good man.
Aasimar have the racial favored class bonus that adds +1/2 to the Oracle's level for the purpose of determining the effects of one revelation.
Choose the Bonded Mount Revelation from the Nature Mystery.
It's that simple.
There are a couple of home rules I use that come int to play sometimes.
This is one of them... all multi-class options have to be approved by me.especially when certain combinations look especially forced like this one. A Druid/Cavalier is something you'd have to sell past me. Are you giving up your metal armor for this as well? If you're not, then you're losing all of your druidic abilities... including nature bonds for prolonged abuse.
While I think having an IC reason for a build can be a good thing, there is no reason a Cavalier has to wear metal armor, even for their traditional heavy armor. There's always Stoneplate and Dragonhide armor.
And while a Druid/Cavalier might sound strange, a Ranger/Cavalier doesn't (to me at least).
A Sylvan Sorcerer with Robes of Arcane Heritage could presumably get an animal companion at an EDL of Sorcerer level plus one. I think many DMs would disallow that if it exceeded character level. I'm not sure that +1 or -1 level would be worth requesting a FAQ over though.
There could be plenty of solid roleplaying reasons for wanting to have a couple of animal companions. The concept I've been kicking around is a guy who is part of a gypsy circus. He'd probably want a horse to pull his vardo and an exotic animal like a tiger or elephant to perform in the show.
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Except what you're missing is that you don't just have 1 EDL that you then spread around, each animal has its own EDL. (Which is why you can make use of multiple boon companion feats, which the feat itself states.)
incorrect. you still only have one EDL.
you're dividing it among your animal companions.A pack lord druid may not select a domain and must choose an animal companion. The druid gains a +2 bonus on wild empathy and Handle Animal checks made regarding her animal companion. The pack lord may have more than one animal companion, but she must divide up her effective druid level between her companions to determine the abilities of each companion. For example, a 4th-level pack lord can have one 4th-level companion, two 2nd-level companions, or one 1st-level and one 3rd-level companion.
the same goes for beast master.
specific rules for animal companions is that classes that grant an animal companion stack for determining your effective druid level. ( where the animal lists overlap ).so Cavalier 4/Ranger 12 stacks for a horse (thanks to the FAQ) but not for a tiger. Boon companion still only gives you a bonus to your EDL, capping it at your character level. Each individual animal doesn't have its own EDL.
if the cavalier chooses a horse, his EDL is already 16 thanks to stacking.
if the Cavalier 4/Fighter 12 took horse master, his EDL would be considered 16 thanks to the Horse Master feat.
When the Cavalier 4/Ranger 12 takes a horse and a tiger he gets the choice between an EDL 8 horse and EDL 12 Tiger, or EDL 4 horse and EDL 16 tiger with boon companion.
If the Cavalier 4/Ranger 12 took a horse, he wouldn't need the Horse Master feat, his EDL for a horse would already be 16. it would be a redundant and wasted feat.
If the animal is not on the cavalier mount list, the druid levels do not stack and you must have different animals (one an animal companion, one a cavalier mount).
For example, if you are Medium druid and you choose a horse companion, levels in cavalier stack to determine the horse's abilities. If you are a Medium druid and you choose a bird companion, levels in cavalier do not stack to determine the bird's abilities, and you must choose a second creature to be your mount (or abandon the bird and select an animal companion you can use as a mount).
If they don't stack, how do you have only one EDL?
specific rules for animal companions is that classes that grant an animal companion stack for determining your effective druid level. ( where the animal lists overlap ).
Whilst that is correct - with the Horse Master feat - aren't you being granted an effective Druid level by hit dice (or rather character level) rather than class level? By the fact that there is a distinction between the concepts of an Effective Druid Level (which is an Effective Class Level) and Character Level, I'm a bit loathe to agree.
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For the OP's case, a Horse, and a Tiger. By taking a Horse, both Cavalier and Ranger DO stack already.
Horse Master gives you an EDL equal to your Character Level for the Horse, which still limits your EDL to your character level, and only makes it applicable to a Horse. In a case where your EDL from cavalier is 4, and your total character level is 16. that's quite a benefit.
When they don't stack you have an EDL for your Mount, and an EDL for your Animal Companion.
( 4 and 12 for the OP's question ). but once you choose a Horse for your mount, they go back to stacking.
you're still left with the choice, do i want an EDL 4 horse and an EDL 16 tiger, or an EDL 16 horse.
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My point is not to argue, and I apologize if I seem that way at all (I'm a bit tired and got a little lazy with rereading posts to make sure they are upbeat and positive). My reason for bringing this up:
1. To get across that this is an actual problem that by RAW allows a serious bending of the rules.
2. That it ought to get fixed.
If we had to get "a fix" for every rule that can be bent by a gamist player the Core Rulebook would be the size of the Encyclopedia Britannica.
The "fix" is for GM's to grow the spines they used to have, before the advent of the Internet.
Great post! It really ends up not being too fun if everyone is a robot. Language can be too dynamic.
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so you've got one EDL for Mount, and one EDL for AC. These EDL's stack when its the same mount. so the character Cavalier 4/Ranger 12 could have just a horse , at EDL 16. no extra feats or anything needed, if he wasn't a Beastmaster this would be the default because he'd only be allowed one animal companion.
the Cavalier 4/Beastmaster 12 can split up his Beastmaster EDL and allow him to have a second animal companion, since he's already got the Mount from cavalier he's allocated his 12 EDL from Beastmaster to his Tiger, and taken Boon Companion so that it acts as if his 12 EDL were 4 higher, and Horse Master lets him act as though the Mount's EDL were his character level: 16.
the wording for horse master you quoted gets around EDL by using your character level to determine the EDL of your mount. and the wording of Boon Companion lets you calculate its abilities as if your class were 4 levels higher.
I still don't read Boon Companion as being able to take it and apply it once to each animal companion. if you've taken it once and applied it to animal companion, you can take it again, and apply it to familiar, but that's my reading of it. Like a Wizard / Druid could take it, once for his animal companion, and once for his familiar.
congratulations, you've found a way to have two full character level animal companions. I think they should have kept Horse Master and Boon Companion in terms of EDL completely. It feels like Horse Master shouldn't allow you to break up your mount to your character level, without explicitly stating that you can't have another animal companion or mount.
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Ok, you're wrong here on several levels. First, Ranger's animal companion is level -3, so the horse would be EDL 13. Second, he's allowed multiple companions if he chooses a companion for ranger that a cavalier can't have. (He can't have multiple companions from just 1 class unless allowed otherwise.)
sorry, forgot that Strong Bond was part of the archetype and not just static to all Rangers at 12th. Forgive the misstep in my breakdown for Cavalier 4/Ranger 12 vs. Cavalier 4/Beastmaster 12. And nothing says you can have multiple animal companions from multiple classes. The animal companion section specifically stated that they stacked. So it was very much implied from the start that you'd only have one animal companion. The FAQ was the first time that they set out a clarification that Mount and Animal Companion only stack when they overlap. SKR initially had a very open interpretation, that they stack and allow the broader selection. This seems to be some trickle down from PFS though, as the FAQ that was released matches Mike Brock's ruling that Mount and Animal Companion only stack in the least permissive sense. So i'm not wrong, i'm just in disagreement with the designers. Both have been valid at some point. I still think it solves more problems than it creates to have them stack, case in point: two full character level companions. PFS just sidesteps this by only allowing you to bring one with you anyway, so they don't have to deal with that.
Other than needing to be a beast master I think we more or less agree here. (I don't see Horse Master as "getting around" anything but functionally we agree.)
its "getting around" it, because you're treating character level as EDL for something, and most of the other rules as i surmised them, work best when broken down into EDL ! > Character Level. the way the feats are being applied, by getting two full character level companions, you've got Character Level x2 EDLs, its broken because of action economy already. its doubly broken by them being full EDL = Character Level
And that would be an entirely mistaken way to read the feat. If I take the feat twice and apply it to a horse and to a tiger did I take it twice and apply it to two different animal companions in a way so that it does not need to stack?
The feat's had a number of problems in reading it from the start. I'm sure they're trying to make it useful and apply to familiars and animal companions. When it first came out, I don't know if Beastmaster or Pack Lord were out. But the rules initially as they were, implied that all animal companion levels stacked, so you couldn't have more than one animal companion. And the rules for familiars is that all familiar granting classes stack for determining the power of your familiar. So it seems a perfectly fine way to read it. When it was written You may have had a Ranger that wanted AN animal companion to be his character level instead of character level -3, and you might have had a wizard / fighter, that wanted to have his familiar bump up a few to get closer to his character level.
I don't think it was intended to be applied each to multiple animal companions. But thats how it works out, as written, in the current ruleset.