Stealth, and 5ft. steps.


Rules Questions

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Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Can you enter Stealth as part of a 5ft. step?

Relevant info:

PRD wrote:

Action

Usually none. Normally, you make a Stealth check as part of movement, so it doesn't take a separate action. However, using Stealth immediately after a ranged attack (see Sniping, above) is a move action.


My guess is no. But i doubt its defined anywhere.

Liberty's Edge

I would say yes, the "movement" in "check as part of movement" should IMHO be read as the general real world usage, not the Move action; so as a 5' step would be considered movement from one square to another you could roll Stealth as part of that movement.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

Would your stealth start at the beginning or end of the movement?

Grand Lodge

I know it's not it's own separate action, but was curious if the "part of movement" was part of a move action to move, or any kind of movement.

It is not quite as clear, as it could be.


Note that normally stealth is started as part of movement (not necessarily a move action). Its left pretty open to GM interpretation by the way its phrased. And it really needs to be. Someone might have cover or invisibility but be known to be in the area. Can they stand up from prone quietly? Or drop prone quietly? Can they take a 5' step backwards quietly? If you are in an area of darkness can you 5' step into an area of dim light and remain hidden? Could a metamagic silenced dimension door require a stealth roll upon arriving at your destination?


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bbangerter wrote:
Note that normally Can they stand up from prone quietly? Or drop prone quietly? Can they take a 5' step backwards quietly? If you are in an area of darkness can you 5' step into an area of dim light and remain hidden? Could a metamagic silenced dimension door require a stealth roll upon arriving at your destination?

As far as I can see, based off just about everything I've ever seen in real life or cinema:

Stand up steathily: yep.
Drop prone to hide: yep
Back up into a dark alley and dissapear: yep.
Be horribly stealthy in the border between light and magical darkness: yep.
Teleport soundlessly into an area that offers opportunities to hide: yep.

I'm in the camp of "movement =/= move action". I'm also in the camp of "stealth may not work by RAW, but it works fine by common sense".


Normally stealth is part of a move action but not necessarily. Even if you're standing perfectly still the GM can ask for a stealth roll.

In my opinion, if you are behind cover and take a five foot step you can try to stealth. If you enter cover by taking a 5' step you can try to stealth.

Grand Lodge

Stealth is not an action. You make a Stealth check in a circumstance where something changes, such that you might or might not be hidden and quiet. Most often (normally), this involves you moving, but it can be any action or event.


This recently came up in another thread.
LINK

Creating a Diversion to Hide:
Normal - Unknown Action
Heretic (Inquisitor) - Move Action, after Judgement(Escape)
Street Performer (Bard) - Swift Action

Heretic:
Standard - Judgement(Escape)
Move - Diversion
Remainder - Swift, 5'Step

Street Performer:
Swift - Diversion
Remainder - Standard, Move; or Full-Round, 5'Step

In order for the Heretic to use the Judgement(Escape) ability at all, they would need to use a 5'Step to find Cover/Concealment, making a Stealth roll while doing so.

Liberty's Edge

The impact of a 5-foot step stealth is minimal. After all, using a 5-foot step means that you are already in combat and most likely in view of enemies. As you take a 5-foot step to move behind cover/concealment, anyone who has line of sight will see you move to your hiding spot. You then stealth. Even if no one sees you after the stealth, they still know where you are. During the round, they can round the corner of the cover/concealment and the stealth is most likely spoiled.

A 5-foot stealth is really only useful during a surprise round or if you are left alone for the round. You then have the capability of moving stealthily from your concealed/covered position to another to (hopefully) surprise your opponent with an unexpected attack.


In the past, my interpretation was that characters could not normally stealth at full speed, and when your speed is reduced, you cannot take a 5 foot step. Being able to stealth with a 5 foot step was one of the perks of taking Fast Stealth, and one of the truly unique benefits to being a rogue.

I know the rules have been clarified since then, and I do not recall if characters can now stealth at full speed with a -5 or what.


Troubleshooter wrote:

In the past, my interpretation was that characters could not normally stealth at full speed, and when your speed is reduced, you cannot take a 5 foot step. Being able to stealth with a 5 foot step was one of the perks of taking Fast Stealth, and one of the truly unique benefits to being a rogue.

I know the rules have been clarified since then, and I do not recall if characters can now stealth at full speed with a -5 or what.

Speed being reduced doesn't inherently remove your capacity to take a 5' step. If your normal speed is 30, and it is reduced by half for any reason (15), you can still take a 5' step. Only if your effective speed is reduced to 5' or less are you denied your 5' step, since it takes a whole move action just to move those 5' or, in the case of having <5' of movement, it takes a whole full-round action to move 5'.

Grand Lodge

Let's just say, the cover/concealment and unobserved parts are not an issue.

Then, one could 5ft. into stealth?


I don't see why not; it's a form of movement, even if it's, effectively, a non-action. You'd have to be standing within 5' of applicable cover/concealment and use a standard action to distract with a bluff check; something along the lines of "Hey, I'm over there *points*". They look, you duck behind the tree/into the shadows, and boom you're concealed. And now, you have a move action for whatever you need it for; draw a new weapon, for example.


@BBT
What is your idea behind your question? Normally you ask such kind of questions as soons as you find a possible loophole, a grey RAW area etc. something that is not RAI.

Grand Lodge

I am putting together a build that requires no cover/concealment, or be unobserved, to use stealth.
Also, it can be done in normal light, bright light, dim light, or darkness.

With this in mind, I need to know what is actually required to use stealth.

It's not a search for a "loophole", but it is a bit of a gray area in the rules.


If you're looking for rules that cover it, I don't think anything specifically says. The wording does remind of me drawing a Weapon. It's a move action but can be combined with movement. If I were GM'ing, I would probably say that a 5' stealth step is still a move action.

Grand Lodge

That seems a bit much.

Having stealth be it's own move action doesn't seem in line with RAW, or RAI.

I would hate to be wrong, but I do accept it as a possibility.


blackbloodtroll wrote:
I would hate to be wrong, but I do accept it as a possibility.

I don't in this case, as you have several different game terms to distinguish:

1. Move action (such as drawing a weapon while standing still).
2. Regular move
3. Movement

Movement encompasses the regular move and intersects with the move action (but neither is contained within the other).

A 5' step is specifically movement, and is different from a 5' move.

Other forms of movement include or are included within: withdrawing, charging, spring attacking, fly by attacks, and many feats/abilities that allow it outside of as a move action (e.g. combat patrol).

People do freak out over the idea of stealth, so it is something worth speaking to your GM about and going over the rules with them very carefully, especially for a character so focused on that aspect of the rules.

-James

Grand Lodge

My usual stance, is to try to get as much figured out as I can, before bringing it to my DM.

I know he is busy, and like to know what I am dealing with, ruleswise, to bring ease to play.

Honestly though, as much as mundane stealth is looked down upon, I still like to know my limits.

I put a lot of resources into being stealthy, so it would be a shame to have it for nothing.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

I am putting together a build that requires no cover/concealment, or be unobserved, to use stealth.

Also, it can be done in normal light, bright light, dim light, or darkness.

With this in mind, I need to know what is actually required to use stealth.

It's not a search for a "loophole", but it is a bit of a gray area in the rules.

It's not so much a gray area as it is an area that is (probably) intentionally left up to GM call. Stealth gives some rough outlines on when you can't use it, so looking at the opposite would tell us when you can.

Stealth wrote:
If people are observing you using any of their senses (but typically sight), you can't use Stealth.

So in order to you use Stealth, people can't be observing you using any of their senses.

I would argue, then, that as long as foes* are not observing you, you can use Stealth - whether you're standing still, taking a 5-foot step, or moving at speed (with penalties of course).

*While it says "If people..." I have to assume from common sense that this means "If enemies..." Otherwise you're left with Invisible Boy from Mystery Men ("I can only turn invisible when no one is watching me!")

Grand Lodge

Well, in this case, the individual can use stealth, even while observed.

Grand Lodge

Is a 5ft. step any different than dropping prone behind cover?

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Is a 5ft. step any different than dropping prone behind cover?

In regard to making a Stealth check, no.

Grand Lodge

Well, then a 5ft. step into stealth should work, right?

Grand Lodge

blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, then a 5ft. step into stealth should work, right?

Remind me what's so special about dropping prone behind cover that it contributes to your argument to compare them? One would seem to be just as likely or problematic as the other.

Grand Lodge

Taenia wrote:
Would your stealth start at the beginning or end of the movement?

You begin to hide when you enter a condition that restricts your enemies' ability to see you, so in this case, at the end of your 5' step.


Kazaan wrote:
Troubleshooter wrote:

In the past, my interpretation was that characters could not normally stealth at full speed, and when your speed is reduced, you cannot take a 5 foot step. Being able to stealth with a 5 foot step was one of the perks of taking Fast Stealth, and one of the truly unique benefits to being a rogue.

I know the rules have been clarified since then, and I do not recall if characters can now stealth at full speed with a -5 or what.

Speed being reduced doesn't inherently remove your capacity to take a 5' step. If your normal speed is 30, and it is reduced by half for any reason (15), you can still take a 5' step. Only if your effective speed is reduced to 5' or less are you denied your 5' step, since it takes a whole move action just to move those 5' or, in the case of having <5' of movement, it takes a whole full-round action to move 5'.

I'm pretty sure that this is not exactly correct. I know there are many instances where your speed is reduced and you can not 5 ft step. For instance, rough terrain. It reduces speed by half and you can not take a 5 ft. step. I recall a while back that you could stealth while moving 5 ft during a move action but could not stealth as part of a 5ft. step. Don't know if this was changed or updated at some point though.

Grand Lodge

Starglim wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:
Well, then a 5ft. step into stealth should work, right?
Remind me what's so special about dropping prone behind cover that it contributes to your argument to compare them? One would seem to be just as likely or problematic as the other.

It was argued "effort required" was a restriction to a move action to move.

Since dropping prone, and taking a 5ft. step, require about the same amount of effort, and one has already been proven to be a method of entering stealth, so should the other.

Grand Lodge

Should I look for a separate answer when it comes to PFS?

There might be table variance.


"You can take a 5-foot step before, during, or after your other actions in the round." from PRD so yes you can stealth before, during or after a 5' step. As long as, of course, you fulfil the requisite rules for taking a 5' step.

Grand Lodge

Yes, but Stealth is done as part of another action.

In this case, the action is the 5ft. step.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes, but Stealth is done as part of another action.

In this case, the action is the 5ft. step.

No, stealth is normally done as a part of movement. Which means sometimes it can be done as not part of movement.

The rules specifically point out sniping as making stealth its own action. I don't believe that is an exhaustive list.

Example scenario:
You've been chased (for a long distance) by a baddie into a darkened room. The baddie does not have dark vision and does not have a light source. Can you use stealth to keep from breathing heavily and giving away your position? Can you do so without moving each round (not even a 5' step)? The answer is going to be: Ask your GM.

Common sense should tell us this should be allowed. The rules on stealth are not so restrictive as to disallow it (stealth is normally done as part of movement).


BBT, are you using Hellcat Stealth combined with Shadowdancer or the Shadow Bloodline?

Really I think you just need Hellcat Stealth. And an object that emits light, like I dunno, many weapons.

Quote:
Light Generation: Fully 30% of magic weapons shed light equivalent to a light spell. These glowing weapons are quite obviously magical. Such a weapon can't be concealed when drawn, nor can its light be shut off. Some of the specific weapons detailed below always or never glow, as defined in their descriptions.

Grand Lodge

Lights go out.

Also, as I said, table variance.


If you're trying to get away with entering Stealth as part of a 5' step, then using a full round action like a full attack, then the answer is probably no, for the same reason you couldn't draw a weapon and take a full attack by saying "I draw my sword as part of a 5' step." You have to take a feat to Quickdraw and full attack.

Grand Lodge

How do you mean "trying to get away with"?

The rules on drawing a weapon are different, and not comparable.


Mike Franke wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
Troubleshooter wrote:

In the past, my interpretation was that characters could not normally stealth at full speed, and when your speed is reduced, you cannot take a 5 foot step. Being able to stealth with a 5 foot step was one of the perks of taking Fast Stealth, and one of the truly unique benefits to being a rogue.

I know the rules have been clarified since then, and I do not recall if characters can now stealth at full speed with a -5 or what.

Speed being reduced doesn't inherently remove your capacity to take a 5' step. If your normal speed is 30, and it is reduced by half for any reason (15), you can still take a 5' step. Only if your effective speed is reduced to 5' or less are you denied your 5' step, since it takes a whole move action just to move those 5' or, in the case of having <5' of movement, it takes a whole full-round action to move 5'.
I'm pretty sure that this is not exactly correct. I know there are many instances where your speed is reduced and you can not 5 ft step. For instance, rough terrain. It reduces speed by half and you can not take a 5 ft. step. I recall a while back that you could stealth while moving 5 ft during a move action but could not stealth as part of a 5ft. step. Don't know if this was changed or updated at some point though.

Rough Terrain does not reduce your movement by half. It (typically) costs double movement to enter the square. These are different even if similar.

Using your interpretation, only one square of difficult terrain would slow a monk from 60' to 30'.

In truth, that one square would just cost the monk 10', allowing him to move a total of 55' if no other squares are difficult terrain.

You cannot 5' step into a square that costs more than 5' to enter.

But otherwise, you can't 5' step in a round that you move anyway (baring special stuff).

Terrain is WAY more detailed than this also.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

How do you mean "trying to get away with"?

The rules on drawing a weapon are different, and not comparable.

What I mean is, you've been extremely vague about this build you're putting together. You're asking us this question, but it's evident you want the answer to be "yes" (as any OP does). When asked directly what your plans are, you equivocate with "let's just say..."

That's suspicious; it makes it seem like you are hiding something that would result in a "no" answer. If this is not your intent, please tell us the build.

And given the lack of specifics, drawing a weapon is comparable. It is a free action when combined with movement. Stealth is a non-action when combined with movement. There's a conceptual comparison to be made. There are rules for drawing weapons when not moving, and unclear ones for stealth. My best guess is they follow the same pattern.

But please, prove you aren't equivocating; post your build, or at least the relevant parts (classes, race, fears).


As an adde note, if you are using the class feature Hide In Plain Sight of the Shadowdancer or similar, Su abilities are Standard actions unless stated otherwise. It is a magical effect, so it's not automatically subsumed in standard activity. You'd have to demonstrate that quite literally vanishing from sight took no effort to do so.


Hide in Plain Sight is worded as lifting a restriction on an existing ability; it doesn't mean it becomes a separate standard action. Otherwise, abilities that say "you can take 10 on <insert long skill check here> even while threatened" would automatically reduce the action to a standard action, which would be silly.


blackbloodtroll wrote:

Yes, but Stealth is done as part of another action.

In this case, the action is the 5ft. step.

As the other poster said it is not tied to an action, but rather movement.

A 5ft step is movement. Some abilities allow you to move without an action, but are still movement.

James

Grand Lodge

Bizbag wrote:


What I mean is, you've been extremely vague about this build you're putting together. You're asking us this question, but it's evident you want the answer to be "yes" (as any OP does). When asked directly what your plans are, you equivocate with "let's just say..."

That's suspicious; it makes it seem like you are hiding something that would result in a "no" answer. If this is not your intent, please tell us the build.

And given the lack of specifics, drawing a weapon is comparable. It is a free action when combined with movement. Stealth is a non-action when combined with movement. There's a conceptual comparison to be made. There are rules for drawing weapons when not moving, and unclear ones for stealth. My best guess is they follow the same pattern.

But please, prove you aren't equivocating; post your build, or at least the relevant parts (classes, race, fears).

The build simply requires no Cover, Concealment, and can be observed.

So, at this point, it is understanding what is needed to use Stealth, and if a 5ft. Step qualifies.

Nothing hidden.

See the build here.


Then how can an inquistor heretic use the escape ability?

Escape (Su): Each time the inquisitor using this judgment hits an opponent with a melee or ranged attack, she can use a move action attempt to create a diversion to hide (see the Stealth skill).

You use the standard to attack, th emove to stealth and then sit i plain site and it is worthless.

Grand Lodge

Let's imagine a PC next to a 5ft. wide column/tree/etc.

Now, he 5ft steps behind it to hide.

We can agree that this doable?


I agree, but others may not


I think this is the wrong angle. I don't think you need to move at all to enter stealth, it's just normally the case that your goal is to avoid having your motion detected, so you make a stealth check while making a move action. Also, normally, you would have to have some way to keep people from observing you to enter stealth. If you have something which allows a hide-in-plain-sight type effect, well, then that changes things.

In short, I don't think you inherently need to move to enter stealth, it's just that, if you are currently observed, and you are under the normal rules where being observed prevents stealthing, obviously you are going to have to go somewhere that you aren't observed to enter stealth.

But it's not obvious that any move at all is required to enter stealth once you have that feat, since it allows you to enter stealth while observed. But I'd probably go with the parallel to sniping, and say that "entering stealth without moving" is itself a move action if you are doing it while observed.


When combined with your Hellcat Stealth, and something to hide behind, sure. The column/tree/etc. would provide cover, and you could hide there even though your enemy saw you go behind it thanks to Hellcat.

The two roadblocks to activating Stealth are observation and concealment/cover. Hellcat covers observation in bright/normal light, Shadow Well otherwise. Shadow Well covers concealment as long as there are shadows. I presume your question regarding 5' steps applies to bright light and/or conditions where there are no shadows?

In such a case, 5' stepping behind cover would let you hide. I think the distinction is that the cover lets you hide; the 5' step is incidental.

I believe the "make a check as part of movement" text describes a scenario where you are already sneaking around; you make the check to see if you can make it through the round undetected.

For clarity by way of example, think of Perception. You don't normally need to take an action to use Perception, you make it as part of normal activity (when there's something to be seen/heard). If you actively use Perception (because you suspect there's something hidden, say), it's a move action.

I see this as, the Stealth skill text doesn't account for "Activating stealth" or rather "vanishing."

Lacking an exception in the base Stealth rules, you can probably simply vanish where you stand as long as you qualify to hide in that square, you have concealment and you have dealt with being observed. The 5' step isn't even necessary (unless you need it to find cover or concealment).

You probably SHOULD take that 5' step, because your opponent, seeing you vanish from where you were, is likely to try that square first to find you.

Just beware of True Seeing - your GM may rule that it defeats the Shadow Well portion of the ability (being as it's a magical source to your Stealth). It wouldn't let your opponent automatically see you (you are hiding mundanely), but it might deny you your concealment and allow him to Observe you, should you reveal yourself.


I think the question really boils down to economy of actions and what type of action is it to stealth.

I don't think it is explicitly listed anywhere.

Normally it is as part of movement. That is a lot like drawing a weapon with a +1 BAB or better. I personally hate the idea that a 5' step is "part of movement". My reasoning is that a 5' step is an additional free action and that should trigger another free action.

But, I totally understand the alternate argument and can't prove it incorrect.

So, I feel that the real question is, "What type of action is stealth", which has been asked before, and I believe, never officially defined.

Following all of that, I think you have to make the decision at your table or wait for a FAQ.

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