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Holy crap guys.
I've never seen people so deeply offended by the act of being coy.
I can't imagine how your respective significant others handle it.
Sorry just couldn't let this go.
Personally I'm upset that Louis has totally sidestepped the marketing issue. My small post of irritation became a point of focus for other people who are unhappy or jaded about marketing strategies. The dissatisfaction only mounted when the response was more of the same.
Again, personalising our discontent and bringing our personal relationships into the equation is...interesting.
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Yeah, I'm not particularly offended or anything by the approach taken. I was merely passing on the fact that I'm not going to back this project (despite being a heavy kickstarter/3PP supporter) and that part of that is due to the marketting approach. (Though that's not the sole reason).
There's no point staying silent when you're voting with your wallet or the producers may not realise what it was they did that missed the mark - expressing my reasons for avoiding this project was intended as a favor to the various 3PP concerned, not a whine.
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EDIT: Ugh screw it. The internet will be what it is.
I'll just say that the derailment has been extremely unfair to Louis and the others who are working on this project and I'm not going to be nice about words like "pissed" and "douchebaggery" being tossed around over something so insignificant. If you can't figure out why that is then there's nothing I can tell you that can change that.
Yeah, I'm not particularly offended or anything by the approach taken. I was merely passing on the fact that I'm not going to back this project (despite being a heavy kickstarter/3PP supporter) and that part of that is due to the marketting approach. (Though that's not the sole reason).
There's no point staying silent when you're voting with your wallet or the producers may not realise what it was they did that missed the mark - expressing my reasons for avoiding this project was intended as a favor to the various 3PP concerned, not a whine.
I think that may be a bit of an overreaction -- I intend to evaluate the kickstarter once it's up and decide then (but with a team like this, it's close to a done deal already).
I mean, it's nowhere near as bad as Paul of the Diamond Center's advertising approach. Growing up in the Eighties, seeing his godawful commercials all the time, I'd rather pay more somewhere else than buy diamonds from Paul.
...I'd rather punch Paul in the face and go to jail for assault than buy diamonds from him, truth be told.
Announcement felt premature and over-hyped.
Premature because it was really a pre-annoucement, that is to say a non-annoucement. We've been getting enough of that with teasers for trailers of movies. At least most teasers offer more solid glimpses of the actual content than a list of people involved.
Over-hyped because the big reveal was "a monster book", which is nice, don't get me wrong. All the creative folks involved are super talented and LPJr's layout and art are top caliber. I wanted my mind blown, instead I was left scratching my head waiting for the relevance. Many of these designers have contributed monsters to multi-collaborator monster projects, including the Pathfinder Bestiaries.
We'll see how this shapes up.
Also, if WotC, Microsoft, and Games Workshop have taught us anything, be careful about counting any publicity as good publicity, or taking actions that obviously perpetuates such thinking. The "any publicity" marketing concept was likely thought up before the modern meme-fied internet and the cynical and savvy generation prowling it. Getting caught on the receiving end of that is not a good place to be.
I think that may be a bit of an overreaction...Yeah, I'm not particularly offended or anything by the approach taken. I was merely passing on the fact that I'm not going to back this project (despite being a heavy kickstarter/3PP supporter) and that part of that is due to the marketting approach. (Though that's not the sole reason).
There's no point staying silent when you're voting with your wallet or the producers may not realise what it was they did that missed the mark - expressing my reasons for avoiding this project was intended as a favor to the various 3PP concerned, not a whine.
I dont know if it's a reaction as such - it's certainly not a rational decision I've made, it's just how things are.
When they evaluate how the marketing went for this, they'll no doubt look at how many people back the project. It's only in their interests to know that at least one generally high tier backer was turned off by it. As I said - I intend the feedback as useful to them, I'm not making any judgement about them beyond 'it didnt work for me'.
I, for one, believe in informative announcements. And, since I've just been added to the stable of authors for this project, I'm going to make a moderately informative announcement right now:
Hmm, a Mythic section of the Creature Codex would be cool...If the Kickstarter for this project hits enough stretch goals to get my content included, there will be a Mythic section in this book. My Mythic contribution will be the highest-CR monster I've ever written. He will be both a demon lord and a monkey. He will be awesome.
Sir, I salute both you and your Demon Lord Monkey. Long may he reign!
Just watched the video. Okay. Sounds good. I was admittedly initially uninterested in "yet another monster" book. Your enthusiasm and sales pitch has turned me around. I won't have the money for print most likely, but I'm sure I'll wish I did.
Don't worry we are going to have several reasonable levels for donors who want the product including multiple "early bird" levels.
Can I suggest Tim Connors and Frank Gori/GM Solspiral for some more authors? You might have already contacted either of them. Tim's work for Kobold Press is impressive (skincrawler dragon anyone?) and Fank's "Old Hat Monsters" column for the KP blog show him to be a designer of merit.
I will see what I can do about that.
Was Richard Pett mentioned? Ben McFarland - Midgard monsters generally? Jim Groves? Crystal Frasier? How about some of Rite Publishing's stable - Kaidan looks good for monsters (Michael Tumey/Jonathan McAnulty...)
I have not contacted them yet. I don't know them as well as the other people that I listed but they could be added on as threshold goals.
Being entirely impressed by your Neo-Exodus art and graphics I'm sure this will look beautiful. Will a WAR cover be a stretch goal?
Legally I can't say he will be until I offer and pay him, BUT I would like to have that as a possibility.
Personally I'm upset that Louis has totally sidestepped the marketing issue. My small post of irritation became a point of focus for other people who are unhappy or jaded about marketing strategies. The dissatisfaction only mounted when the response was more of the same.
OK I will be completely blunt here: What exactly are you looking for me to say to you? I have the feeling no matter what I say you will not be happy.
The marketing we use was highly effective because it IS highly effective. It is not rocket science going on here. We have a INCREDIBILITY RISKY kickstarter we want to do that is expensive and, I hate to break it to you, we are not Monte Cook or Wolfgang Baur where reaching $75K in donor is what is expected. The 3PP are mostly on the opposite side of that measurement. I mean do you really think Reaper's Bones kickstarter was not going to reach their initial goal of $20K? How about the Paizo MMO? I am doing things to make this risky venture that I am attempting successful. Even though there are a LOT of names attached to this kickstarter, don't assume this is going to be a success. There are a LOT of 3PP who failed to reach their kickstarer goals in the past. I am making sure we are not one of them, because the part you are forgetting the majority of people working int this kickstarter are not doign it for fun, this is how they make money to pay their bills and live. This is not "fun" for the, this is a JOB to them.
Yeah, I'm not particularly offended or anything by the approach taken. I was merely passing on the fact that I'm not going to back this project (despite being a heavy kickstarter/3PP supporter) and that part of that is due to the marketting approach. (Though that's not the sole reason).
Steve while I might not agree with your position I will respect your decision to not support this kickstarter.
There's no point staying silent when you're voting with your wallet or the producers may not realise what it was they did that missed the mark - expressing my reasons for avoiding this project was intended as a favor to the various 3PP concerned, not a whine.
Voting with your wallet is the best thing to do in this situation and I respect you for doing it. Thanks you for your support in 3PP in the past and the future.
Announcement felt premature and over-hyped.
Premature because it was really a pre-annoucement, that is to say a non-annoucement. We've been getting enough of that with teasers for trailers of movies. At least most teasers offer more solid glimpses of the actual content than a list of people involved.
Since we at LPJ Design made one post about an announcement we are having during Gen Con week, and other people commented on it, how is it "premature and over-hyped"? I think your exceptions of what it was might have been slightly "over-hyped". As I said, we were having an announcement, which we did when we said we would. Anything beyond that was not in our control.
Over-hyped because the big reveal was "a monster book", which is nice, don't get me wrong. All the creative folks involved are super talented and LPJr's layout and art are top caliber. I wanted my mind blown, instead I was left scratching my head waiting for the relevance. Many of these designers have contributed monsters to multi-collaborator monster projects, including the Pathfinder Bestiaries.
We'll see how this shapes up.
OK let me ask you this question: When was the last time nearly twenty different 3PP of Pathfinder and top Pathfinder freelancers worked on a project where the creator are given carte blanche to create whatever they want and place it in one book for retailers to sell? Here is a hint: Never. This has NEVER been don. Not during 3.0 or 3.5. Oh there have been two or three companies doing this like this but not twenty. And look at the names on that list. A lot of A list Pathfinder companies and writers. How could this NOT excite you?
Also, if WotC, Microsoft, and Games Workshop have taught us anything, be careful about counting any publicity as good publicity, or taking actions that obviously perpetuates such thinking. The "any publicity" marketing concept was likely thought up before the modern meme-fied internet and the cynical and savvy generation prowling it. Getting caught on the receiving end of that is not a good place to be.
The sad but true side to your comment is that the three companies you have list are still some of the the most influential companies in their fields even with all their "bad press". That says something about the brands they have built and it ability to resist "bad press".
I, for one, believe in informative announcements. And, since I've just been added to the stable of authors for this project, I'm going to make a moderately informative announcement right now:
Hmm, a Mythic section of the Creature Codex would be cool...If the Kickstarter for this project hits enough stretch goals to get my content included, there will be a Mythic section in this book. My Mythic contribution will be the highest-CR monster I've ever written. He will be both a demon lord and a monkey. He will be awesome.
And this is why I did this kickstarter. Let writers and artists do what they do best and you will always get the best stuff from them. I don't need to control or influence someone creativity, I just have to make sure people get to see it.
I'm not unhappy Louis. My advice on contacts, my praise for your past efforts and respect for your energy should let you know that. ;)
I was merely upset that your initial response to my comment was not to take it in stride and appreciate at all my expressed dissatisfaction with your approach - instead you ramped it up another notch. There is not, nor should there be, a witchhunt in this thread. I take the thread title to be at least doubly meaningful - Secret Plan X might be the watershed that moves 3PPs to be a liitle more circumspect as to how they present themselves, or at least how they respond to customer (or potential customer) dissatisfaction. To be clear, it was your brazen lack of concern in your response to my comment that really irritated me, much more than the "teaser" effort of the intial post.
I'm not looking for you to say anything to me Louis (except maybe offer me a million dollars to imagine you up six impossible creatures before breakfast, but the kickstarter may not reach that funding and sadly I'm way too busy with school even though there is a mighty fine creature creator program (Monster Generator 1.1) down in Homebrew that would help at least with some of the more possible mechanics ;p). I'm hoping that you might reflect, albeit momentarily on the opinions expressed in this thread. Do I think you will change tack? Not for a second. This is all yet another ad for
Creature Codex. May it (de)live(r) long and prosper. And scare seventy eight different types of s&$t out of PCs for many years to come.
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Can we get the Kickstarter going and posted here so that I can throw my money at you?
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I have been just informed about TWO different people I know that Creature Codex has been used already, so now we will be changing that name of this Kickstarter. What will we call it? I am open to any REAL suggestions, so tell me what you think it should be named?
Abominable Atlas
Savage Scripture
Leviathan Lexicon
Titanic Tome
Just a few courtesy of Thesaurus.com
Abomination Almanac
Gruesome Guide(book)
Inhuman(e) Index
Vicious Volume
Terror Treatise
Evilutionary Essays (spelling intentional)
Destructive Dogma
Opus Obliviate
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Monster Mashup
Creature Collaboration
Dread Denizens
Vile Foes
Direnomicon
You Be Prey
The Harrows
Gallery of Grief
Litany of Beasts
Creature Journal
Beast Map
Lexicon of Terror
Horrible Lexicon
Beasts Unbound
Gruesome Gallerie
Creature Mark
Fantastical Forum
What Terror Lies Within
Many Lives Were Lost...
The Gift of Knowledge
Contributor
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Codex Monstruorum
Which is close to a real medieval bestiary, the Liber Monstruorum.
It's not taken, either.
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And to get you even more excited about this project, we will have opportunity to have donors submit monsters / templates / traps / poison / disease / feats / spells to add to this book. How many of you other there would like to have you name along side of game designers like Seam K Reynolds and John Wick.
BTW, I am hoping to announce a HUGE name to this already impress list. I am just waiting to hear back from them on another assignment and its deadline. But it is looking VERY good!
Fiend Quarto
Don Manuel de los Monstruos
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Perhaps have the name imply collaboration or something more akin to the 3pp spirit?
Creatures Combined
Combinomicon
Monstrosities Combined
Combined Curiosities
Lethal Lexicon?
League of Monsters?
The Horrors?
Syndicate of Sorrow?
Monster Mosaic
Creature Cooperative
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Wow, christ on a cracker, that is a lot of overreaction.
"Hey guys, we´re going to announce something awesome, involving all these awesome people, stay tuned for more information"
"YOU GUYS ARE MOSNTESRS RAGHBLAGHAG YOU CANT TOY WITH ME LIKE THESE!!1111!! THIS IS BAD MARKETING AND I WILL NOT BUY IT AND I HATES YU FOREVER!1!1!!1!!!1"
Yeesh. I wonder if you guys realize you complaining about the marketing just helps to keep it relevant and makes the marketing idea more sucessfull...
Well, I for one am glad it managed to keep this thread on the front page so I could see it. Well done, good marketing.
If the kickstart holds until 5th of next month I will definetly have money to pitch in. Just one question:
You mentioned this book will also have poisons? Because I need more cool/useful/not so expensive poisons. Like, desperately. I want to play a poisoner so bad it hurts.
On the name, may I suggest Ultimate Monsters? It would look really neat between Ultimate Campaign and Ultimate Psionics.
Edit: Epic Meepo is also Epic Ninja.
Monster Lexicon?
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Monsters Unleashed has already been used by us.
Something with the word anthology in it would probably make the most sense.
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Wow, christ on a cracker, that is a lot of overreaction.
"Hey guys, we´re going to announce something awesome, involving all these awesome people, stay tuned for more information"
"YOU GUYS ARE MOSNTESRS RAGHBLAGHAG YOU CANT TOY WITH ME LIKE THESE!!1111!! THIS IS BAD MARKETING AND I WILL NOT BUY IT AND I HATES YU FOREVER!1!1!!1!!!1"
Yeesh. I wonder if you guys realize you complaining about the marketing just helps to keep it relevant and makes the marketing idea more sucessfull...
Well, I for one am glad it managed to keep this thread on the front page so I could see it. Well done, good marketing.
If the kickstart holds until 5th of next month I will definetly have money to pitch in. Just one question:
You mentioned this book will also have poisons? Because I need more cool/useful/not so expensive poisons. Like, desperately. I want to play a poisoner so bad it hurts.
On the name, may I suggest Ultimate Monsters? It would look really neat between Ultimate Campaign and Ultimate Psionics.
Edit: Epic Meepo is also Epic Ninja.
Okay. This is the last post I'm making here. I'm also going to spoiler it as it's fairly long, and I don't want to force people to see another wall of text.
The other irritation was that when these concerns were first voiced, it appeared that they weren't so much being taken on board as they were being used as a chance to tell us we were playing right into their hands. This may be true, but it's not a smart way to deal with it. The more reasonable response would have been to just say "Thanks for sharing that. We'll take it under consideration. Anyway, we hope you hang around and take a look anyway, and hopefully you'll still be interested in what we're doing". Something like that probably would have resulted in my being far more likely to end up supporting this project.
It's quite possible that I exaggerated some of my comments early on as I was explaining my point of view. That sort of thing tends to happen when I'm posting on very little sleep and late at night. So I apologise for that, but I won't be apologising for making my opinion heard.
Additionally, I'm not sure why someone felt the need to start making comments on not being sure how our significant others handle us if we react to someone being coy like this. Not really necessary, given that it a) makes the assumption that we all have significant others, and b) has no bearing on this situation whatsoever. This actually had a lot of potential for causing offence. Some of us might actually have some severe issues when it comes to relationships. I know I do.
Finally. At no point did I, or anyone else (unless I'm missing some frothing-at-the-mouth-levels-of-anger posts somewhere) call LMPjr a monster. We made our opinions clear. In my case, once I had further information on the product, I also specifically stated that I wished them luck with it, but that my previous opinion regarding most likely not supporting it stood, not just because of what I'd previously said about voting with my wallet, but also because I honestly have little to no use for an additional monster book. I didn't say I hated him forever. The closest I came was when I said that his reactions to comments could have influence on my decisions regarding buying his other products. Given that I don't use all that much 3PP stuff anyway, and normally only buy the occasional product if it holds a particular interest for me or I think I can use it for inspiration for my homebrew, this isn't even likely to have much effect on anything I'd do anyway.
To sum up. None of us hope that this fails. To the contrary, on my part I wish them every success. I just wanted to let them know why I had been put off supporting it. Others apparently had the same idea. There's nothing wrong with us expressing those opinions, as long as we do it with a certain level of decorum
I'm also glad that the discussion kept this on the front page, so that you could find it. Because, as I said before, I hope that the project gets funded, and that it's everything people want it to be. It's just not for me. Anyway, who knows. My opinion could change as more information becomes available.
Couldn't have put it much better myself Tinkergoth. Thanks.
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:)So you don't take down your website and just leave a counter up, before announcing your new RPG?Look at Legendary Games's previews. Cryptic but relevant utterances, pieces of artwork, that kind of thing.
"SOMETHING COOL IS COMING" is not how you do it.
Guess that's what I get for posting that at the bottom of the page rather than the top...
If the kickstart holds until 5th of next month I will definetly have money to pitch in. Just one question: You mentioned this book will also have poisons? Because I need more cool/useful/not so expensive poisons. Like, desperately. I want to play a poisoner so bad it hurts.
If if is something dangerous and can hurt Pcs, then I want it in this book.
On the name, may I suggest Ultimate Monsters? It would look really neat between Ultimate Campaign and Ultimate Psionics.
We hope it will be the "Good to" monster book for 3PP Pathfinder fans.
Regarding the title, pulling a couple of the recent suggestions, how about "Anthology of Abominations" ?
FWIW, and this is likely my only post on the thread, I was not impressed by the marketing approach, either, for reasons that have been belabored more than enough and a couple of odd quirks of my personality. However, I totally support the project - whether I can support it financially remains to be seen. I have far, far more monster books than I can possibly use - that doesn't stop me from purchasing new adventures, however, so odds are in favor of a purchase.
Best of luck and great success I wish to you. Peace.
This whole thread had me thinking about mysterious girlfriend x.
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Ah, you want to give me a reason to be outraged? How about the lives Mr. Porter potentially put at risk by video blogging while driving? Jeez.