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Alright, hunting for another FAQ here. We can do this, people! The subject this time is not the light/dark rules in general, but this special ability exclusive to the daylight spell:
Daylight wrote: Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect. So the question is...
When daylight's mutual-negation clause refers to 'an area of magical darkness', does it mean any area affected by a darkness spell, or only the supernaturally-dark product of deeper darkness?
I'm hoping it's the latter, and here's why:
Daylight is a 3rd-level spell which sheds bright light in a 60ft radius.
Heightened continual flame can be a 3rd-level version of a 2nd-level spell that sheds normal light in a 20ft radius.
So the two spells are equal level, but daylight is bigger, brighter, and a higher "normal" spell level.
If we're adventuring in a windowless cave, and some foul 3rd-level tiefling cleric casts darkness (rendering our torches worthless within the radius), how would you expect the two spells above to affect the situation?
Would you expect daylight to continue to be bigger and brighter? Or would you expect daylight to be negated while heightened continual flame shines on?
Yeah, that's what I thought. On the other hand, the term 'magical darkness' could very easily be taken to mean 'darkness of magical origin'.
Thus, FAQing is needed. Click the FAQ button in the upper-right portion of this post. Thanks everyone!
EDIT: Also, don't miss this other FAQ request thread either!
Thanks Jiggy. You are better at phrasing questions that I am.
Keep in mind that Continual Flame can be a 3rd level spell when cast by a cleric.
Wait. That can't be how it works.
Darkness wrote: Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness. Deeper Darkness works the same way. Both Deeper Darkness and Daylight are 3rd lvel. If the "temporarily negate" clause of Daylight only counts in areas of Supernatural Darkness, then Daylight will have no effect against Deeper Darkness, unless it brought it down to supernatural. If the ambient light conditions were Normal, Deeper Darkness would bring it to Dark, then Daylight wouldn't increase it.
So ambient Dim + Deeper Darkness + Daylight = Dim
ambient Normal + Deeper Darkness + Daylight = Dark.
That seems very counter-intuitive.
BTW, is there a FAQ for exactly what "temporarily negated" means? Particularly whether mundane light sources work in that negated area? I recall some dispute about that.
thejeff (emphasis added) wrote: Wait. That can't be how it works.
Darkness wrote: Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness. Deeper Darkness works the same way. Both Deeper Darkness and Daylight are 3rd lvel. If the "temporarily negate" clause of Daylight only counts in areas of Supernatural Darkness, then Daylight will have no effect against Deeper Darkness, unless it brought it down to supernatural. If the ambient light conditions were Normal, Deeper Darkness would bring it to Dark, then Daylight wouldn't increase it.
So ambient Dim + Deeper Darkness + Daylight = Dim
ambient Normal + Deeper Darkness + Daylight = Dark.
That seems very counter-intuitive.
BTW, is there a FAQ for exactly what "temporarily negated" means? Particularly whether mundane light sources work in that negated area? I recall some dispute about that.
^ This. But it's worth asking, because if read RAW, the clause means that a 2nd-level darkness spell temporarily negates a heightened 9th-level daylight spell. And that's just silly. *Something* needs to be done.
I wouldn't focus too much on the uber-heightened spells. Why are you casting 9th level daylight spell anyway? Isn't there something better you could be doing with that slot.
There are plenty of cases where similar things happen. A 3rd level Invisibility Purge temporarily negates a 9th level heightened Invisibility (or Greater Invis), for example.
That bothers me far less than the normal interaction between the non-heightenede spells not working.
I honestly feel that the negate clause of daylight is only useful in the situation of Daylight vs Deeper Darkness. Versus darkness I would rather just have it function as a light source that isn't countered but is dropped down by darkness.
This is how I WANT Daylight to work vs Darkness:
1) Room is ambient normal. Darkness is cast and causing light level to be dim. Player casts daylight, creating bright light which darkness drops 1 level to normal light.
2) Room is ambient dim. Darkness is cast and causing light level to be dark. Player casts daylight, creating bright light which darkness drops 1 level to normal light.
3) Room is ambient dark but has torches. Darkness is cast, negating torches, and causing light level to be dark. Player casts daylight, creating bright light which darkness drops 1 level to normal light.
In 2 of these cases treating Daylight as a higher level light source gives you a better outcome than the negating clause. You only break even when darkness is used in ambient normal light. In that case both the negation clause and higher lvl light spell yield the same result, normal light.
Considering this, the negation clause for Daylight should only be applicable to Deeper Darkness. In that case both spells are 3rd lvl and the only way they can counter each other is through that clause.
Only in one case will a Heightened daylight actually net you a better result if you treat it as a higher level light spell rather than use negation. This is when the ambient light level is Dark. In this case the negation clause leaves you with a light level of dark while the higher level light spell leaves you with dim light.
And this is why we need as many FAQ clicks as we can get. Tell your friends to get to clicking! :D
Well, lets pick the problem apart. First off, Deeper Darkness function refers back to Darkness so lets start there.
prd wrote: Darkness: This spell causes an object to radiate darkness out to a 20-foot radius. This darkness causes the illumination level in the area to drop one step, from bright light to normal light, from normal light to dim light, or from dim light to darkness. This spell has no effect in an area that is already dark. Creatures with light vulnerability or sensitivity take no penalties in normal light. All creatures gain concealment (20% miss chance) in dim light. All creatures gain total concealment (50% miss chance) in darkness. Creatures with darkvision can see in an area of dim light or darkness without penalty. Nonmagical sources of light, such as torches and lanterns, do not increase the light level in an area of darkness. Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness. Key points: Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level.
So, against a lvl 2 Darkness spell, you'd need at least a lvl 3 Light spell to raise the light level. Lvl 2 or lower of Light simply won't function at all.
Deeper Darkness "functions as darkness..." so in a lvl 3 Deeper Darkness spell, you'd need at least lvl 4 Light to overcome it. In this case, in an ambient Dark room, DD lowers it 2 levels to superdark over 60' and Light will raise it to light over 20' and from superdark to dark in the next 20', resulting in a 20' sphere of light, a 20' shell of dark around it, and 20' shell of superdark around that.
Now, Daylight over a Darkness or Deeper Darkness spell will mutually negate as per Daylight's rules. Neither Daylight nor Darkness/DD will function so, in an ambient Dark room, you end up with Dark conditions in the overlap of the two, but you can light a torch in it or have another light-producing spell to provide for the illumination. So with Continual Flame and Daylight, Daylight will cancel out the magical darkness entirely over its 120' total radius and then CF will shed its normal light.
Kazaan wrote:
Deeper Darkness "functions as darkness..." so in a lvl 3 Deeper Darkness spell, you'd need at least lvl 4 Light to overcome it. In this case, in an ambient Dark room, DD lowers it 2 levels to superdark over 60' and Light will raise it to light over 20' and from superdark to dark in the next 20', resulting in a 20' sphere of light, a 20' shell of dark around it, and 20' shell of superdark around that.
This is where some of the questions about order come in:
But first, there's no such light level as "light", I assume you mean "normal"?
Does the L4 Light spell set the level within 20' to Normal, which is then lowered by 2 to Dark? And raise the surrounding 20' to Dim, which is then lowered by 2 to Superdark?
Or does Deeper Darkness drop the whole area to SuperDark, with the light spell then setting the level within 20' to Normal and raising the next 20' by one to Dark? This is what you're suggesting, I think,
Does it matter in which order the spells are cast or brought into the area?
If only the higher level spell works in the intersecting area then the order in which the spells appear is irrelevant.
Malachi Silverclaw wrote: If only the higher level spell works in the intersecting area then the order in which the spells appear is irrelevant. But that is very definitely not RAW.
Bump for more FAQ hits. We can do waaaaaay better than 20, people!
Alright, I FAQ'd it. I'm pretty sure this interpretation makes no sense though.
Daylight having no effect on Deeper Darkness except when the light level is dropped to Supernaturally Dark would be as weird as any other result and involves the base versions of the spells, not heightened ones.
Come on, more FAQ clicks! Let's do this!
One last bump. Earlier we were able to get over 90 FAQ clicks, and our questions were answered. Let's make it happen, folks!
If this one gets answered, I might actually feel comfortable enough with these rules to use magical light and darkness...
Weirdo wrote: If this one gets answered, I might actually feel comfortable enough with these rules to use magical light and darkness... Agreed. This one of those rules that I've never felt comfortable with.
FAQ'd
Consider it Faq'ed...the button that is.
Thanks! Don't forget this one as well.
Clicked for FAQ!
These darkness/light rules need clarification!
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