Darkness and High-Level Light Spells

[Jiggy]

Now that we've gotten some clarifications of how darkness works (via an updating of this FAQ and the addition of this FAQ), it's time for the next major question:

Does the effect of a high-level light spell (such as a 4th-level heightened continual flame) adjust the light level in an area BEFORE or AFTER darkness lowers it by one step?

In a windowless room, for instance, a darkness spell will result in total darkness within its radius as long as all light sources are either mundane or are magical with a spell level of 2 or lower. But for a higher-level spell (say heightened continual flame), do we apply the light spell (normal light) and then reduce it by one step (dim); or do we finish with the darkness spell first (dark) and then apply the light spell (normal)?

Answering this question will get us excitingly close to having a smoothly-functioning light/dark system. Please click the "FAQ" button on the upper-right part of this post if you'd like to see this answered. Thanks!

[wraithstrike]

Quote:

Daylight brought into an area of magical darkness (or vice versa) is temporarily negated, so that the otherwise prevailing light conditions exist in the overlapping areas of effect.

Quote:

Darkness can be used to counter or dispel any light spell of equal or lower spell level.

Quote:

Light can be used to counter or dispel any darkness spell of equal or lower spell level.

Quote:

Light spells counter and dispel darkness spells of an equal or lower level.

It seems the spells should cancel each other out, and return the lighting conditions to the point they would be if neither spell was ever case.

when you use a spell to dispel or counterspell, such as using haste against a slow you spell you don't get the normal affects of the spell also. That means a light spell used to counter a dark spell wont emit light. It will just cancel the other spell.

Now how do I know the light spell won't emit light and counter the other spell?

From the FAQ wrote:

Dispelling: If I use a "diametrically opposed" spell to dispel another spell (bless vs. bane, haste vs. slow, and so on), does my spell have any effect other than dispelling?

No, all of your spell is used to counter all of the targeted spell, there is no "spillover" from your spell that you can apply to your allies.

For example, if an enemy sorcerer's slow spell affects your fighter ally, and you cast haste as a dispel on slow, the slow ends and nobody gains haste. The same would be true regardless of how many of your allies were affected by that slow spell.

[Altus Lucrim]

But you are not dispelling the darkness effect, it's still there, it just cannot handle your light source to extinguish it. therefore the continual flame functions normally, and over powers the darkness, so long as it is a higher level spell.

[Jiggy]

@wraithstrike: If a guy under bless and a guy under bane shake hands, nothing gets dispelled. Similarly, bringing an active light spell and an active darkness spell near each other does not invoke the "counters and dispels" line.

Furthermore, do not mistake a self-referencing line from the daylight spell for a general rule about light and darkness spells.

Read darkness, read all the FAQs, read darkness again, get everything sorted, then come back to this thread.

[yeti1069]

Well, if you cast Bless on someone under the effect of Bane, both effects end. Your example of Bless and Bane is different, since you can't pass on the buff by shaking someone's hand, just like you can't shake someone's hand with Haste and impart it upon them.

Reading both Darkness and Daylight, the most likely thing to occur is that you bring Daylight into the dark, and the area is restored to normal light conditions for that zone, until one leaves the other...it seems like they wouldn't dispel each other.

[Odea]

Bless/bane off topic:

yeti1069 wrote:

Well, if you cast Bless on someone under the effect of Bane, both effects end. Your example of Bless and Bane is different, since you can't pass on the buff by shaking someone's hand, just like you can't shake someone's hand with Haste and impart it upon them.

That is incorrect. Example: level 1 Fighter and Cleric fighting 3 goblins and a goblin shaman (Oracle 1). Round 1 cleric casts Bless. Cleric and Fighter have 10 rounds of Bless. <time passes> Round 3 Shaman casts Bane, Cleric and Fighter fail their saves. They now have Bless and Bane (which cancel each other in terms of the bonuses given, but they have both). Round 11 comes around and Bless has worn off. Now Fighter and Cleric are both affected by Bane only until round 13 when that wears off too.

The line "Bless counters and dispels Bane." in the Bless spell (and similar text in Darkness/Light spells, Consecrate/Desecrate, Haste/Slow etc.) refers to the counterspelling (LINK) mechanics and to the dispel magic(LINK) mechanics.

For example if Cleric in round 2 readies an action to "counter a spell cast by the shaman" then when the shaman casts Bless the cleric can 1) make a spellcraft check to recognize Bane, then 2) cast Bane to counter Bane (Remember: "As a general rule, a spell can only counter itself") OR cast Bless "Bless counters and dispels Bane."

Example #2: Round 4 in the BASE example (Fighter and Cleric have Bless (6 rounds left) AND Bane (9 rounds left) going): Cleric decides to cure Fighter of the Bane effect: Cleric casts Bless as a spell to make a targeted dispel on the Bane spell. She makes a dispel check (see dispel magic above and carefully read the example about dispelling a Wall of Fire). Cleric rolls 1d20 + her caster level and if her total is higher than the DC of the Bane spell, then the Bane is dispelled from Fighter.

See Cast Out(LINK) for another example of a spell that references a "dispel check." (which as far as I know is only explained mechanically in the Dispel Magic spell, not in the Magic section of the core rules).

This is sort-of not obvious stuff from the text, but that's how it works. Darkness/Light spells are even worse/more complicated because the "spell" is a touch spell on a specific object that then radiates the light/darkness, and spell level matters, and there's a zillion other problems, which is why Jiggy said above: "Read darkness, read all the FAQs, read darkness again, get everything sorted, then come back to this thread."

[wraithstrike]

Jiggy wrote:

@wraithstrike: If a guy under bless and a guy under bane shake hands, nothing gets dispelled. Similarly, bringing an active light spell and an active darkness spell near each other does not invoke the "counters and dispels" line.

Furthermore, do not mistake a self-referencing line from the daylight spell for a general rule about light and darkness spells.

Read darkness, read all the FAQs, read darkness again, get everything sorted, then come back to this thread.

It is already sorted. While I did quote daylight I did not use it as part of the general rule argument. I also NEVER said bring them near each other counted as dispel or counter.

If they just come near each other it seems we have no rules for how they work. So what we really need is errata so a rule can be created. Is that sorted enough, and I did not even have to read anything again.

[yeti1069]

Odea wrote:

** spoiler omitted **...

I think I stand corrected on Bane/Bless, but the phrasing in this FAQ: http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9qnn seems to indicate that you can use the spell to counter the ongoing opposite spell, although it's somewhat unclear in that reply as to whether the Haste could be used to dispel Slow on all of your allies, or if it can only be used on a single target (that seems to be the case, but it is a little ambiguous).

Coming back to the thread topic, though, do you think I pegged Darkness/Daylight correctly?

And, yes, dispelling magic has some of the most convoluted rules of any action in the D&D 3/x | Pathfinder system.

[Jiggy]

wraithstrike wrote:

It is already sorted. While I did quote daylight I did not use it as part of the general rule argument. I also NEVER said bring them near each other counted as dispel or counter.

In the context of an original post that never mentioned daylight and was asking about how to calculate the final light level when (any) two light/dark spells meet, you replied with a list of quotes, only one of which was daylight and the rest referenced countering/dispelling, and the first line you actually wrote said that the spells would cancel each other out. So if you were only talking about daylight and not trying to apply that effect to everything else, then why did you preface it with quotations from other light spells and post it as a reply to a question that doesn't care about daylight?

So yeah, that makes it look like you're applying daylight's overlap rules to everything. But if that's not what you meant, then nevermind.

wraithstrike wrote:

If they just come near each other it seems we have no rules for how they work.

Yes we do:

Darkness wrote:

Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.

Is your light spell higher level than the darkness effect? Then it increases the light level. Is it not? Then it contributes no light to the area whatsoever. All that's left is the one detail of whether the "lower it by one step" part comes before or after applying a high-level light spell's light.

And that's what the OP is trying to get into the FAQ.

[Jiggy]

@Odea and yeti - Let's not get too sidetracked on exactly how dispelling works with opposite spells, as the situation at hand does not involve that mechanic at all.

[thejeff]

Jiggy wrote:

Yes we do:

Darkness wrote:

Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area if they are of a higher spell level than darkness.

Is your light spell higher level than the darkness effect? Then it increases the light level. Is it not? Then it contributes no light to the area whatsoever. All that's left is the one detail of whether the "lower it by one step" part comes before or after applying a high-level light spell's light.

And the only reason that's a problem is that light spells in the immediate area do not raise the light level, they set it to "normal" (Or bright for Daylight, but we know how Daylight interacts.)

So the question is within 20' of a heightened Continual Flame within a Darkness AoE, in an ambient dimly lit area is it:
a) Continual Flame sets light to Normal, which is then lowered 2 steps to Dark.
b) Darkness lowers the light level to Dark, then Continual Flame sets it to Normal.

The area between 20' and 40' is also interesting:
a) Continual Flame raises the light level by one to Normal, which is then lowered 2 steps to Dark.
b) Darkness lowers the light level to Dark, then Continual Flame raises it by one to dim
c) The one level from Continual Flame cancels out one of the levels from Darkness, leaving one level left to drop the light level to Dark.

Hmmm. So it's not just the setting feature of Light spells, there are also weirdnesses when you hit the caps. You can't get above Normal(Bright for Daylight) or below Dark (Supernatural Dark for Deeper Darkness), but do those levels cancel out levels from opposing spells?

[Jiggy]

thejeff wrote:

The area between 20' and 40' is also interesting:

a) Continual Flame raises the light level by one to Normal, which is then lowered 2 steps to Dark.
b) Darkness lowers the light level to Dark, then Continual Flame raises it by one to dim
c) The one level from Continual Flame cancels out one of the levels from Darkness, leaving one level left to drop the light level to Dark.

Darkness is one level, deeper is two.

But yeah, it's an issue. But I think if the question I posed in the OP gets looked at, and neither "before" nor "after" are correct answers, then they'll tell us how it's supposed to work. So let's click that FAQ button! :D

[Lab_Rat]

I honestly don't think this needs an FAQ. Darkness takes whatever the light level is and adjusts it down one step.

1) Light level is Normal due to Hightened continual flame (HCF). Darkness drops it to dim.
2) Ambient light level is Dim. Darkness drops it to dark. Player with HCF walks near to darkness zone. The dim light from the HCF does nothing as the ambient was Dim. The player continues into darkness zone, bring the normal light zone of their HCF into the darkness and the light to increase to dim.

I basically treat light sources of a higher spell level as Ambient natural light.

[thejeff]

Lab_Rat wrote:

I honestly don't think this needs an FAQ. Darkness takes whatever the light level is and adjusts it down one step.

1) Light level is Normal due to Hightened continual flame (HCF). Darkness drops it to dim.
2) Ambient light level is Dim. Darkness drops it to dark. Player with HCF walks near to darkness zone. The dim light from the HCF does nothing as the ambient was Dim. The player continues into darkness zone, bring the normal light zone of their HCF into the darkness and the light to increase to dim.

I basically treat light sources of a higher spell level as Ambient natural light.

2) If the ambient light is dim, the outer radius of HCF would boost it to normal. Darkness would drop that to dim.

It would work as you said if the ambient was darkness.

[Jiggy]

Lab_Rat wrote:

I honestly don't think this needs an FAQ. Darkness takes whatever the light level is and adjusts it down one step.

1) Light level is Normal due to Hightened continual flame (HCF). Darkness drops it to dim.
2) Ambient light level is Dim. Darkness drops it to dark. Player with HCF walks near to darkness zone. The dim light from the HCF does nothing as the ambient was Dim. The player continues into darkness zone, bring the normal light zone of their HCF into the darkness and the light to increase to dim.

I basically treat light sources of a higher spell level as Ambient natural light.

1) If I'm standing outside on a moonlight night, I'm in dim light.

2) If I cast darkness, then it drops it one step to dark.
3) If I whip out my HCF, it would normally set the light level to normal. If instead the darkness lowers it to dim, then you have a single darkness spell simultaneously lowering the moonlight by one step AND lowering my HCF by one step. That's two steps. Reconcile that.
4) At the 20-40ft range, my HCF tries to raise the light level by one step (instead of setting it to a specific level). So without darkness, it would raise from dim (moonlight) to normal light. So we could apply darkness first (taking it to dark) and then raise it to dim, or we could apply the HCF first (taking it to normal) and then lower it to dim. Either way, you end up at dim. This means that under your interpretation, the entire 40ft of the HCF grants the same light within darkness. Why? Because, as I showed in #3, you're trying to lower the light level by two steps in that area.

Now maybe you don't buy all that. But unless you can prove conclusively within the rules that it clearly still works your way, then there is at least a question, and you should click the FAQ button.

[Lab_Rat]

thejeff wrote:

2) If the ambient light is dim, the outer radius of HCF would boost it to normal. Darkness would drop that to dim.

It would work as you said if the ambient was darkness.

My mistake.

Redo:

1) Light level is Normal due to Hightened continual flame (HCF). Darkness drops it to dim.
2) Ambient light level is Dim. Darkness drops it to dark. Player with HCF walks near to darkness zone. The increased light from the HCF increases the light level to normal and the darkness spell drops it to dim. The player continues into darkness zone, bring the normal light zone of their HCF into the darkness and the light level stays at dim.

[Lab_Rat]

Jiggy wrote:

1) If I'm standing outside on a moonlight night, I'm in dim light.
2) If I cast darkness, then it drops it one step to dark.
3) If I whip out my HCF, it would normally set the light level to normal. If instead the darkness lowers it to dim, then you have a single darkness spell simultaneously lowering the moonlight by one step AND lowering my HCF by one step. That's two steps. Reconcile that.
4) At the 20-40ft range, my HCF tries to raise the light level by one step (instead of setting it to a specific level). So without darkness, it would raise from dim (moonlight) to normal light. So we could apply darkness first (taking it to dark) and then raise it to dim, or we could apply the HCF first (taking it to normal) and then lower it to dim. Either way, you end up at dim. This means that under your interpretation, the entire 40ft of the HCF grants the same light within darkness. Why? Because, as I showed in #3, you're trying to lower the light level by two steps in that area.

Now maybe you don't buy all that. But unless you can prove conclusively within the rules that it clearly still works your way, then there is at least a question, and you should click the FAQ button.

My way of doing it is to calculate the light level first.

1) What's ambient light?
2) are there light sources that will be negated by darkness? If so, ignore their light level.
3) Are there light sources of higher spell level then darkness spell? If so, calculate their light into the ambient light level and adjust.
4) Apply darkness effect.

This process does not change based on the order in which spells are brought in. If a new light source of higher level is brought in, all you do is go back through the steps and adjust the light level if needed.

[Lab_Rat]

3) Ambient light is dark with torches. Darkness negates torches and keeps light at dark. Player with HCF walks near darkness zone bringing the light level to Dim. Darkness drops this level to Dark. Player continues into darkness zone bringing normal light zone from HCF into darkness. The light level is raised to normal and darkness drops it to Dim.

[Jiggy]

Lab_Rat wrote:

My way of doing it is to calculate the light level first.

My way of doing it is to calculate the final result of darkness, then apply anything that's not affected by darkness (such as HCF).

Now either show me in the rules where your way is supported more than mine, or acknowledge that it's not clear and click the FAQ button. Saying "I do it this way; this is how it is" does not mean there's no ambiguity. Heck, your way even already contradicts a FAQ - earlier you said you treated HCF as "ambient natural light", while the FAQ explicitly says that "ambient natural light" only means things like the sun/moon/stars.

Basically, either prove it or stop pretending it's clear when it's not.

[Joe M.]

Good question, Jiggy. For reference, the three darkness FAQs:

FAQ wrote:

Darkness: Can adding additional sunrods to the area of the spell increase the light level?

No, sunrods can never increase the light level of an area of darkness because they are not magical sources of light. In such an area, it automatically defaults to the ambient natural light level (the light level from natural sources, such as the sun, moon, and stars—not torches, campfires, light spells, and so on), and then reduces it one step.

Darkness: Can a nonmagical light source increase the light level within the area of darkness if the light source is outside the spell's area?
No. Nonmagical light sources do not increase the light level within the spell's area, regardless of whether the light source is in the area or outside the area.

Darkness: Can I see light sources through an area of darkness?
No. If a darkness spell reduces the light in the area to actual darkness (or supernatural darkness, if using a more powerful spell), you can't see through the darkness into what is beyond it.

So we have three sources of light:

• Natural light (such as the sun, moon, and stars);

• Nonmagical light (such as torches and campfires);

• Magical light (such as a light spell or a continual flame spell).

We understand the first two, still not sure on the third. Darkness gives us this: "Magical light sources only increase the light level in an area [of darkness] if they are of a higher spell level than darkness."

It looks to me, from the "increase the light level in an area of darkness" language, that magical light sources are calculated last. So: (1) remove nonmagical light sources; (2) lower light level from level set by natural light sources; (3) apply magical light sources of higher level than the darkness effect. But it would be nice to have a clear ruling.

[Jiggy]

Yeah, my leaning is toward applying high-level magical light after finishing with the darkness effect (so a HCF would always set the light level to normal), but it's not clear.

The last two questions got ~95 FAQ flags each, and we got our answers. Let's do it again with this one! :D

[David Bowles]

I don't think darkness effects should have any effect at all in areas of higher level light spells. If someone invests the feat to heighten their spells, then it should completely trump the now OP (imo) darkness mechanics.

[Lab_Rat]

Jiggy wrote:

Yeah, my leaning is toward applying high-level magical light after finishing with the darkness effect (so a HCF would always set the light level to normal), but it's not clear.

The last two questions got ~95 FAQ flags each, and we got our answers. Let's do it again with this one! :D

My issue with that interpretation is that now you are making a lvl 3 HCF (using Sorc/Wiz version b/c of PFS) better than a lvl 3 Daylight.

1) Daylight example: Darkness is cast in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with Daylight on walks into darkness zone and darkness/daylight are negated and ambient light prevails. Area is dim light.

2) You HCF example: Darkness is in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with HCF walks into area and the HCF light prevails. Area is normal light. NOTE: please correct me if I am interpreting this incorrectly.

3) My HCF example: Darkness is in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with HCF walks into area and the light level is brought up to normal and dropped 1 level by darkness to dim. Area is dim light.

[Lou Diamond]

As I understand it if the darkness or light spell is higher level than than the other effect. itrumps the other spell effect. Is this correct?

What happens to an area effect spell like deeper darkness if a PC with minor globe of invunerability moves into the deeper darkness area of effect?

[Jiggy]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

Yeah, my leaning is toward applying high-level magical light after finishing with the darkness effect (so a HCF would always set the light level to normal), but it's not clear.

The last two questions got ~95 FAQ flags each, and we got our answers. Let's do it again with this one! :D

My issue with that interpretation is that now you are making a lvl 3 HCF (using Sorc/Wiz version b/c of PFS) better than a lvl 3 Daylight.

1) Daylight example: Darkness is cast in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with Daylight on walks into darkness zone and darkness/daylight are negated and ambient light prevails. Area is dim light.

2) You HCF example: Darkness is in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with HCF walks into area and the HCF light prevails. Area is normal light. NOTE: please correct me if I am interpreting this incorrectly.

3) My HCF example: Darkness is in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with HCF walks into area and the light level is brought up to normal and dropped 1 level by darkness to dim. Area is dim light.

...Unless of course daylight's mutual-negation clause, when referencing an overlap with "magical darkness", is referring to a supernaturally-dark area created by deeper darkness rather than simply to any area of dark that was created by magical means. Then your stated issue disappears.

And not only does your stated issue disappear, but it takes with it the issue that even with your interpretation, #1 and #3 in your examples both result in dim light even though daylight is brighter than HCF. In my interpretation (of both HCF and daylight), your above example lets daylight provide bright light, HCF provides normal light, and both of them "beat" a lower-level darkness spell.

Almost as though they designed it that way.

[Joe M.]

Lab_Rat wrote:

Jiggy wrote:

My issue with that interpretation is that now you are making a lvl 3 HCF (using Sorc/Wiz version b/c of PFS) better than a lvl 3 Daylight.

1) Daylight example: Darkness is cast in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with Daylight on walks into darkness zone and darkness/daylight are negated and ambient light prevails. Area is dim light.

2) You HCF example: Darkness is in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with HCF walks into area and the HCF light prevails. Area is normal light. NOTE: please correct me if I am interpreting this incorrectly.

3) My HCF example: Darkness is in an area of ambient dim light, dropping the light level to dark. Player with HCF walks into area and the light level is brought up to normal and dropped 1 level by darkness to dim. Area is dim light.

...Unless of course daylight's mutual-negation clause, when referencing an overlap with "magical darkness", is referring to a supernaturally-dark area created by deeper darkness rather than simply to any area of dark that was created by magical means. Then your stated issue disappears.

And not only does your stated issue disappear, but it takes with it the issue that even with your interpretation, #1 and #3 in your examples both result in dim light even though daylight is brighter than HCF. In my interpretation (of both HCF and daylight), your above example lets daylight provide bright light, HCF provides normal light, and both of them "beat" a lower-level darkness spell.

Almost as though they designed it that way.

That line in daylight is a problem all of its own. Can we leave it for another thread?

(But, while we're casting votes, my opinion is that the daylight line means that both spells are temporarily suppressed. This has some silly results (heightened 9th-level daylight spell suppressed by 2nd-level darkness spell), but it's the best RAW sense I can make of it.)

[Lab_Rat]

Jiggy and daylight:

I was only using the daylight example to make a point. Before your rebuttal I was pretty sure daylight issues were wrapped up. I feel like your opinion on daylight and overlapping effects has changed. Before that post I could have sworn you were of the opinion that daylight + darkness/deeper darkness overlap = original lighting conditions. Now you are saying that that line only applies to supernatural darkness. If they meant supernatural darkness or deeper darkness spell wouldn't they have said so instead of using the broader term "magical darkness"?

[Jiggy]

@Lab_Rat: Possibly. On the other hand, that creates some of the weirdness you noted. Probably need to start a thread for that one, too...

[Jiggy]

Thread created! By golly, I'll get light/dark rules clarified if it's the last thing I do! I'll have it on my tombstone!

[Joe M.]

Great. The only other darkness question I can think of (no doubt there are more lurking), then, is whether glowing creatures (luminescent molds, lantern archons) count as natural light (i.e. ambient light) or nonmagical light.

[Artoo]

Joe M. wrote:

Great. The only other darkness question I can think of (no doubt there are more lurking), then, is whether glowing creatures (luminescent molds, lantern archons) count as natural light (i.e. ambient light) or nonmagical light.

More questions? I've got one. How does a light source inside of an area of darkness/deeper darkness affect the light levels outside of the area affected by darkness/deeper darkness?

Example:

Would a torch just inside of a darkness spell still set the light level to normal for any area within 20' of the torch but not within the area affected by the darkness spell?

[Jiggy]

Artoo wrote:

More questions? I've got one. How does a light source inside of an area of darkness/deeper darkness affect the light levels outside of the area affected by darkness/deeper darkness?

Example:

Would a torch just inside of a darkness spell still set the light level to normal for any area within 20' of the torch but not within the area affected by the darkness spell?

Well, the text doesn't say the torch stops shedding light or is suppressed or any such thing; it just says that the light level in the radius of darkness is not increased by the torch. One must assume, then, that everything else works normally: the torchlight outside the darkness radius continues to function.

I think.

[thejeff]

Jiggy wrote:

Artoo wrote:

More questions? I've got one. How does a light source inside of an area of darkness/deeper darkness affect the light levels outside of the area affected by darkness/deeper darkness?

Example:

Would a torch just inside of a darkness spell still set the light level to normal for any area within 20' of the torch but not within the area affected by the darkness spell?

Well, the text doesn't say the torch stops shedding light or is suppressed or any such thing; it just says that the light level in the radius of darkness is not increased by the torch. One must assume, then, that everything else works normally: the torchlight outside the darkness radius continues to function.

I think.

OTOH, you can't see the torch, since it's in the darkness, which makes it realyl weird that it lights things up.

We know you can't see light sources through the darkness. It's hard to see how they can raise the light level through it.
But hey, it's magic...

[Lab_Rat]

Jiggy wrote:

Artoo wrote:

More questions? I've got one. How does a light source inside of an area of darkness/deeper darkness affect the light levels outside of the area affected by darkness/deeper darkness?

Example:

Would a torch just inside of a darkness spell still set the light level to normal for any area within 20' of the torch but not within the area affected by the darkness spell?

Well, the text doesn't say the torch stops shedding light or is suppressed or any such thing; it just says that the light level in the radius of darkness is not increased by the torch. One must assume, then, that everything else works normally: the torchlight outside the darkness radius continues to function.

I think.

That does not work well with the FAQ regarding magical darkness and blocking light from outside. Why would darkness block light from outside but not from inside?

I am more inclined to say that torches are negated and no light is shed from them.

[Robert A Matthews]

If I had to rule on it, I'd have to say that the continual flame gets lowered to dim even though it shouldn't. I like your other idea from a while ago better of just tossing out the current lighting system and rewriting it. :)
Just have clearly defined light levels and remove the magical light/darkness overpowering each other depending on which one is higher level.

Light levels:

5 - Bright
4 - Normal
3 - Dim
2 - Dark
1 - Supernaturally Dark

All magical light increases the light level rather than setting it to a certain level, which is the reason all these issues keep coming up.

Light: Increase light level by one step
Dancing Lights: Increase light level by one step
Continual Flame: Increase light level by two steps, and one step further out
Daylight: Increase light level by three steps

Darkness: Reduce light level by one step, blocks nonmagical light(except ambient natural light)
Deeper Darkness: Reduce light level by two steps, blocks nonmagical light(except ambient natural light)

Multiple increases/decreases don't stack, you take the highest change to the light level and apply it. So if you are in a normally lit room (it's sunny outside) and someone casts darkness, the light level is lowered to dim. Then someone casts deeper darkness and the light level is lowered to dark, not supernaturally dark, because multiple decreases won't stack. Then someone casts Daylight and increases the light level by 3 steps. The daylight spell interacts against the darkness and ends up becoming bright light.

L= Light level

1. Normally lit room L=4
2. Cast Darkness L-1=3
3. Cast Deeper Darkness L-2=2
4. Cast Daylight L-2+3=5
5. New light level is 5 (Bright) L=5

Darkness would still block out your torches and sunrods, and if someone had a light spell up in a dark cave, darkness would still block it. Everburning torches would be stronger in this case, but you'd still have 20% miss chance due to the dim light. Lots of people play races with darkvision anyway so I don't see this as being too big of an issue.

[Jiggy]

But in the meantime, at least hopefully we can get this clarified if enough people click the FAQ button on the OP. :D

[Jiggy]

We're up to about 40 FAQ clicks, but we can do better! Invite your friends and family! Get those clicks!

[Jiggy]

One last bump. Earlier we were able to get over 90 FAQ clicks, and our questions were answered. Let's make it happen, folks!

[Hawktitan]

Clicked

[Joe M.]

Bump.

[Majuba]

Bump, chicka bump?

[Krinn]

Clicked!

Right now I'm using the following rules while waiting for an official faq.
Higher level spells trump lower level ones. In case of a tie, darkness wins unless it's daylight, in which case it's mutual negation and ambient natural lights prevail.

Additionally, daylight trumps darkness of lower level and doesn't negate darkness of higher level. This is against the RAW but I can't stand a lowly lvl2 darkness spell to negate a heightened lvl9 daylight, while a lvl3 continual flame works better.

[James Risner]

Yay I may be running this different than others but I think I'm consistent with RAW.

When casting a Heightened Daylight or Light effect into an area of Deeper Darkness you make a choice:

A) dispel. You use it to dispel the effect. Both spells end and you get ambient light effects.

B) overlap. In the area that contains both spells, neither are making a change. You get ambient light only.

[Jiggy]

James Risner wrote:

Yay I may be running this different than others but I think I'm consistent with RAW.

When casting a Heightened Daylight or Light effect into an area of Deeper Darkness you make a choice:

A) dispel. You use it to dispel the effect. Both spells end and you get ambient light effects.

Good luck with that range of "touch", though.

Quote:

B) overlap. In the area that contains both spells, neither are making a change. You get ambient light only.

The effect you describe is a special property of the daylight spell, and never happens if that specific spell is not involved.

[Avatar-1]

Necro bumped. A rules question with 86 FAQs on it shouldn't be ignored for over a year. This is the darkness rules we're talking about!

[Malachi Silverclaw]

Avatar-1 wrote:

Necro bumped. A rules question with 86 FAQs on it shouldn't be ignored for over a year. This is the darkness rules we're talking about!

Not long ago, I had a couple of related FAQs that have not been answered. One had 116 FAQ requests.

(they were the related topics of 'can I pretend that my longspear isn't a weapon so that I can use the improvised weapons rule to pretend it's a club, and thereby use the same thing to attack at both 5-feet and 10-feet, when weapons with the reach property cannot attack at 5-feet', and 'do improvised weapons threaten')

I know that the number of FAQ requests is not the only criteria, but this isn't asking how some pair of esoteric feats combine, this is asking how the game engine, the combat chapter, actually works.

Light/darkness is another fundamental subject which has been a mess since 1st ed, and the frustrating thing is that it would be so easy to sort! When previously cast areas of light/darkness intersect, if the spells are the same level neither works in the overlap, and if different levels the lower level spell doesn't work in the overlap.

How hard can it be?

[Jiggy]

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

and the frustrating thing is that it would be so easy to sort! When previously cast areas of light/darkness intersect, if the spells are the same level neither works in the overlap, and if different levels the lower level spell doesn't work in the overlap.

How hard can it be?

Well, for starters, that would be an actual change to how things work, which they have to be a lot more careful about than simple clarification. Plus they would have to not only errata the books, but also some existing FAQs.

So a fair bit of work.

You also have to admit that since most of the rules on this subject have been addressed, the return gained from answering these last couple of questions isn't really that big. So as much as I'd like it all finally resolved (especially since the topic is kind of my baby), I can understand it not being a high priority. It's a high work-to-benefit ratio.

[thejeff]

Jiggy wrote:

Malachi Silverclaw wrote:

and the frustrating thing is that it would be so easy to sort! When previously cast areas of light/darkness intersect, if the spells are the same level neither works in the overlap, and if different levels the lower level spell doesn't work in the overlap.

How hard can it be?

Well, for starters, that would be an actual change to how things work, which they have to be a lot more careful about than simple clarification. Plus they would have to not only errata the books, but also some existing FAQs.

So a fair bit of work.

You also have to admit that since most of the rules on this subject have been addressed, the return gained from answering these last couple of questions isn't really that big. So as much as I'd like it all finally resolved (especially since the topic is kind of my baby), I can understand it not being a high priority. It's a high work-to-benefit ratio.

And any such drastic change would probably raise as many questions as it answers. I can already see a few in Malachi's brief summary - which as near as I can tell actually addresses none of the outstanding questions.

Plus they apparently don't want it to work that way. They want Darkness to overpower light spells of the same level, with the Daylight exception.

[Pathfinder Design Team]

Answered in FAQ blog.

[Nefreet]

*gasps*