I'm in the beginning stages(Read: PCs are level 3) of my Rise of the Runelord campaign. One of my PCs has dipped out, and the other has requested a complete class change(makes sense for his character, AND for party benefit). He wanted to become a Paladin, which I allowed since they had no real tank, and we had a Fighter/Oracle as a "big DD". He just really exchanged his Greatsword for an Earthbreaker and a shield/Heavy Mace combo when needed.
The other is a PC who'd NEVER played a Monk before, and wanted to fix her stats. She's playing a Catfolk Monk and gave herself a 10 Wis. Since the group is 2/3 rookies(This is most of their first campaigns that aren't one-shots), I'm willing to let the slightly more experienced players fix themselves a little bit to help/benefit the party more. Especially since they lost their heavy hitter, and the other is doing double duty now.
The group is:
Kobold Rogue 3
Catfolk Monk 3
Human Alchemist 3
Half-Elf Ranger 3(doing both Ranged and TWF styles)
Human Paladin 3
Am I being too lenient for letting the two players "fix" their characters so early in the game, or am I well within the normal "this party set-up isn't working as well as it could be, let's fix that" realm? I'd rather have my players be happy with their characters instead of looking for avenues to get them killed off, honestly.
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I assume you are using point buy and letting players rejig their stats?
Honestly I'd allow a grace period for players with new characters to adjust their character choices if they feel that it's not working. So long as the players are not abusing the system and constantly fiddling with their characters then I see no problem.
Basically a situation of "I've made an error in creating this character, can I alter it so it's more fun" is fine. A situation of "hmmmm, these bad guys are using mind effecting effects, time to boost my Wisdom" is not fine.
I would allow such changes this early on when dealing with rookie players, as long as the other players were ok with the changes.
I would do the same.
Heck, even with veteran players... if it's early on in game and they're not happy with how something turned out, I'll give them a chance to change things.
The only time when I had to put my foot down was in one campaign where one player's switching her character (which she really did need to do) led to two more people asking to switch characters and others asking for other possible changes, and people talking about "Oh, well if this one doesn't work then I'll..."
Before I ended up running a game with an ever shifting pool of PCs, the situation led me to institute a "one free character change policy," discussed with and approved by the rest of the players. If in the game they felt their character really wasn't working out, they could change characters once. After that they were going to have to try to work with what they had. I would additionally allow some retraining upon leveling within reason (i.e., like the way a fighter can retrain his bonus feats). And no, no one did anything stupid like try to get their character killed to get a new one.
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Yea Dathus, with a player dropping and a few rookies in there you shouldnt feel that you are being to lenient. The entire party dynamic just changed, and the monk player had no idea just how important wisdom would be to her character.
Some people like to concentrate on the wisdom powers of the monk, while others do not. I am thinking that this player likes the style of a monk with high wisdom instead of a super high dex or str. (I know that is my style)
Keep in mind that there could be some other minor adjustments in the levels to come as these changes might spur more thoughts like, "I didnt realize that when I did this change that this would happen..."
Our group is made up of experienced players, and there is always a minor adjustment here and there to accomodate an idea that did not turn out the way the player thought it would.
My GM allowed me to change out my Bodyguard feat for toughness once because the concept of a main tank with an 11 con did not go well. hehe.
Just make it clear to them that changing character mechanics around willy nilly is not standard. Let it be known that you're making a one time exception for them - UNLESS you're the type who is okay with characters doing that indefinitely. As they're learning the rules, they're also learning your DMing patterns and how lenient you are. If you wouldn't be comfortable with that kind of leniency under normal circumstances, let your players know that.
I told my Carrion Crown group that they could do all kinds of adjustments up through the first book, as long as they run it by me. Before starting the 2nd book, I plan to announce a last chance to make big changes, mainly to "clean up" anything that just isn't working as planned.
Let's face it, it's a game and we're in it to have fun. If an idea needs tweaked or different interpretations of an ability/rule/etc make it less fun, let's do it.
I usually let players rework their characters after the first couple sessions. The game is complex enough where even veterans can end up making poor choices. And I dont want to punish those that didnt optimize the crap out of their characters by making them stick with options that end up not working out in actual game.
I also allow the retraining of one choice every level. So either 1 feat, one skill worth of skill points, or talent or magus arcana or what have you. Every time you level up you can change one of these so long as its not a prerequisite for something else you have.
It's your game and your rules. If you have newbies at the table, it's best that everyone play something they enjoy and if fixing a few character creation mistakes or changing classes is what it takes then more power to you. I think doing something like that is a great way to build trust with your players and it's not like you are giving them all artifacts or anything that would overpower their characters in the game. The bottom line is that everyone likes their characters and has fun at your table.
I too am of the mind that such changes are ok early on. It would be different if it were further along the adventure of course. Not saying that your players would try to do it for an advantage, but allowing it is just setting up a slippery slope.
Your fine, don't worry. No reason to punish them for mistakes, it might make them feel alienated or wrong if anything. Its not abnormal for people to want to adjust after someone leaves or after getting used to the game. It can only improve their experience if your lenient and possibly even offer to help them find what they want. When your new its easy to be overwhelmed or miss something.
The only time I've seen it get out of hand is a player changed his character every game over the course of 4 weeks. He never asked for help or felt happy, so he just rebuilt the same character over and over and even changed his backstory twice so the class fit. The GM let him do it and this character had twice his WBL. Was a real mess to remember who I was playing with "Wait, I thought you were a paladin, what are you now?"
For character development and building leniency is a good thing. Just don't let them try and change the rules during combat.
We allow changes to character to occur up to level 3. Once you hit level 4 no changes. As well GM gets final say on any changes.
I allow mulligans. But if the player has been playing the PC effectively for a few levels with the options in place, I usually tell him to make up a fresh one to introduce for substantial changes - or just tell him to multiclass. Keep the foundation and build on it in a new direction.
If I were running a Pathfinder game, I would probably have the following rules for rebuilds:
1) Everyone gets one free rebuild. This is meant to cover the case where a player made initial choices whose ramifications he did not understand until he actually tried to play the character. I would only offer one rebuild in order to get the players to think about what they were doing -- there is clearly a more basic problem if a player wants to rebuild his character more than once using the same resources.
2) If a new resource comes out that has something in it (such as an archetype) that would really be appropriate for the character but that is not otherwise available, a player may rebuild the character to the extent necessary to take advantage of it.
3) The character should retain the same name, backstory, and equipment. If the character has changed the character to the point that any of those have to change, then the character should be replaced rather than rebuilt.
When I running an AP, I usually use the first chapter as a testing grounds of sorts. Players are free to change their builds around, but become 'locked in' once the second chapter begins.
I agree with the notion that re builds are okay with new players who are just learning about how effective certain feats and what not are.
I also like giving them the option to rebuild if some new material becomes available to them, like let's say they bought the APG and were only using core before. Not cool to tell them they wasted their money.
If the players weren't newbies and were trying out flawed designs on purpose the story would be different here.
I generally allow rebuilds, as long as it's with any ridiculous frequency.
My "any time" policy generally goes like this: Anything you haven't used yet or have only used once you can switch out. Feats, Spells, items you bought yourself (no use only, excludes anything with a constant effect after the first encounter or anything where you've gotten a use of it), whatever.
I have very few people come with rebuilds or tweaks to their stats and class composition. I'd say a full rebuild would only be cool every one book of an AP, and I'd lean towards every two. Minor stuff could range anywhere from "sure just do it whenever" or "once, and that's it.
Tweaking a stat while dropping another is one I'd probably allow just once without a full rebuild.
Thanks guys. I really appreciate the advice(would've responded earlier but a hectic few days, so apologies.)
I offered the Monk a rework, and I'm going to let the rest of the group get a "One Time GM Rework Pass", so they have one chance to rework their characters in everything EXCEPT equipment and current possessions. They've done some combats, had some experience interacting with each other(aside from the Alchemist and Ranger, none have been in the same group, to my knowledge). I know the Rogue was very happy with his character off the bat, so I don't see a rework coming from him.
Again, thank you. This is my first time GMing where I don't want to facepalm at the aggravation my PCs are causing. I'm actually thoroughly enjoying myself, even though we're only five sessions in.
Every time i run a game I let characters change something about their character after playing a few sessions, usually within the first level advancement or so. I tell them this is your one mulligan to tweak a stat or swap a feat or change a trait or something that fits more what they going for in concept. this is done out of game and during down time for the party not in middle of anything important and almost always when they level up.
I support letting your players change their characters slightly if something isn't working the way they expected or trying something new. remember its game and the goal should always be to fun first and foremost!