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I'm curious if there has been an official word, errata, clarification, ect. on how this item interacts with multiple sorcerer-bsed bloodlines. Strictly RAW, it appears as though the robe would increase all bloodlines and eldritch heritages by +4. Has this been corrected in any way, or any wording discovered in this combination that voids any portion of it?
Simple example: let's say we have a cross-blooded (abyssal and infernal) sorcerer 8. This sorcerer also happens to have eldritch heritage (celestial). When the robe is donned, would his effect levels not then be:
abyssal 12th
infernal 12th
celestial 10th
In the case of the eldritch heritage, by my reading, it would not grant him any additional bloodline powers, but would count them as 4 levels higher.
Does this seem to be the case to others as well?
Yes, that is the way I understand it as well.
I doubt that's how it works. The description of the item states "...gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer..." The use of the word "particular" suggests the intention is for it to only enhance one bloodline. Also the item only costs 16,000gp which is much too low for it to enhance all three. If you want it to do that you should at least up the cost of the item, use the ability boost items as a starting point since they have versions that enhance one, two, or all three.
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the fancy stitching part only works for real sorceror bloodlines, not eldritch heritage.
the boosting bloodline powers part doesn't specify 'of your sorceror bloodline',
so that does work with bloodline powers granted by EH (which doesn't grant an actual sorceror bloodline per se)
you aren't getting any more value from the robe by being crossblooded, since crossblooded doesn't grant any extra BL powers, you get the same number but choose from which bloodline you want them... likewise, you are unlikely to have the same number of BL powers via EH (vs. real sorceror bloodline), so it is very far from 'enhancing 3 for the price of 1', more like best case with multiple EH feats and skill focus pre-req, you can get '1.5 enhanced for price of 1' (and plenty of people who take EH don't have sorceror BL levels to begin with, so the benefit to EH powers is all they get from the robe). ultimately, it's still a pretty expensive item that takes up the robe slot, and plenty of sorcerors have better uses for their gold/slots than a minor benefit to their BL powers...
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I doubt that's how it works. The description of the item states "...gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer..." The use of the word "particular" suggests the intention is for it to only enhance one bloodline. Also the item only costs 16,000gp which is much too low for it to enhance all three. If you want it to do that you should at least up the cost of the item, use the ability boost items as a starting point since they have versions that enhance one, two, or all three.
As Quandary said, it's not truly a 3 for 1 item. The example sorcerer I listed would have:
1 1st level bloodline power as 12th level
1 3rd level bloodline power as 12th level
1 9th level bloodline power as 12th level
1 1st level eldritch heritage bloodline power as 10th level
So it doesn't exactly triple up. Cross-blooded does not afford one more blood-line powers, it simply increases options for selection.
I agree that the item was likely intended to work for a single bloodline only, but that is not what the wording suggests to me. Though the robe suggests a particular bloodline, it goes on to say the wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects. That language seems pretty cut and dry to me. I'm just trying to determine if anyone is aware of any official forum posts or errata for it.
Were ignoring an important aspect of this. The wording of Eldritch Heritage itself
Select one sorcerer bloodline. You must have Skill focus in the class skill that bloodline grants to a sorcerer at 1st level (for example, Heal for the celestial bloodline). This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have. You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
Eldritch Heritage does not grant you levels in sorcerer; the description plainly states that it ignores them if you have them. The Robe explicitly states that it raises your sorcerer levels.
So in short, it doesn't affect your Eldritch Heritage levels at all.
Well I guess we disagree.
I don't see where it implies 'virtual sorcerer levels'. I see where it says "For the purposes of using this power, treat your sorcerer level as equal..." but I don't see that as being virtual sorcerer levels.
It doesn't grant a bloodline; only a single ability in that bloodline. That instruction is just allowing you to use the full abilities of that power.
I see why you'd want it to work that way; but I don't think it does, and I don't think it was intended to.
Well I guess we disagree.
I don't see where it implies 'virtual sorcerer levels'. I see where it says "For the purposes of using this power, treat your sorcerer level as equal..." but I don't see that as being virtual sorcerer levels.
It doesn't grant a bloodline; only a single ability in that bloodline. That instruction is just allowing you to use the full abilities of that power.
I see why you'd want it to work that way; but I don't think it does, and I don't think it was intended to.
Eldritch Heritage says to treat your sorcerer level as character level -2.
Then Robes say to treat your sorcerer level+4 in regards to bloodline stuff.
The price of the item says a lot. If folks other than Sorcerers were not meant to use it, then the item would cost 30% less from the item creation rules.
Since the power itself mentions Sorcerer levels that is why it says treat your Sorcerer level as character level-2. It allows you to take a power out of a bloodline but I don't think that means you get Sorcerer levels or the bloodline itself just the power. Others can use the item if they have something that grants Sorcerer levels. I don't think this does.
I could be wrong. Is there an official opinion?
Here is a fun question for Cross-Blooded (which I do believe it works for).
You put on the Robe and get access to powers within the 4 new levels and choose between your two bloodlines.
If you wanted to change that decision would you simply remove the Robe and don it again?
the robes only affect the bloodline powers.
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline. For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities.
When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage
Lets say the character is a L12 Oracle who picks up skill focus (knowledge: nature), then eldritch heritage (arcana) to pick up a familiar. Through the Eldrich Heritage feat, the oracle would be treated as a L10 Sorcerer for the purposes of the feat. Are you asking if this feat turn the Oracle into a Sorcerer?
UMD doesn't allow that.
The confusing part is whether it gives you Sorcerer levels or whether it merely replaces the words "sorcerer level" in the power with Character Level-2.
If it gives Sorcerer levels; fine.
If it doesn't, also fine.
So, you get a bonus to your Sorc level of +4 for the purpose of bloodline stuff. Well, what's your Sorc level? It's treated as Char Level - 2. So you get a +4 bonus to that.
It's crystal clear.
Not really. You said it yourself; "...for the purposes of Bloodline stuff." and your right, for all your bloodlines, but you didn't get a bloodline; you got a power from a bloodline. Eldritch Heritage even says that your sorcerer level in the power is Char Level - 2 even if you have actual levels in Sorcerer. That seems to imply that the EH levels aren't real sorcerer levels and are static where they are set.
Even though EH does say "Choose a bloodline..." at the start; that's just because it's part of a family of feats and that's a limiting factor so that people don't get too crazy cross-mixing the bloodlines. So not even that line really implies that you GET the bloodline.
So....the crystal is cloudy.
So, you get a bonus to your Sorc level of +4 for the purpose of bloodline stuff. Well, what's your Sorc level? It's treated as Char Level - 2. So you get a +4 bonus to that.
It's crystal clear.
Not really. You said it yourself; "...for the purposes of Bloodline stuff." and your right, for all your bloodlines, but you didn't get a bloodline; you got a power from a bloodline. Eldritch Heritage even says that your sorcerer level in the power is Char Level - 2 even if you have actual levels in Sorcerer. That seems to imply that the EH levels aren't real sorcerer levels and are static where they are set.
Even though EH does say "Choose a bloodline..." at the start; that's just because it's part of a family of feats and that's a limiting factor so that people don't get too crazy cross-mixing the bloodlines. So not even that line really implies that you GET the bloodline.
So....the crystal is cloudy.
No, it is crystal clear.
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I'll bold key parts. These entries are trimmed down to just the relevant bits.
Eldritch Heritage gives you,
"Benefit:
Select one sorcerer bloodline. This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have.
You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline.
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."
Robes of Arcane Heritage gives you,
"The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."
Okay. So, what do we know?
With just the feat:
We have a Bloodline power. It is the first level bloodline power. For the purposes of using this power our sorcerer level is character level -2.
With the robes too:
We have a Bloodline power. It is the first level bloodline power. For the purposes of using this power our sorcerer level is character level -2 +4.
That is it. Crystal clear.
There is no contradiction at all. Anywhere at all here.
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level - 2.
That could mean you get sorcerer levels; which as you show the Robe would add to.
Or
It could mean replace every instance of Sorcerer Level in the power you just extracted with Character Level - 2. If it doesn't grant you sorcerer levels, the Robe won't work.
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level - 2.
That could mean you get sorcerer levels; which as you show the Robe would add to.
Or
It could mean replace every instance of Sorcerer Level in the power you just extracted with Character Level - 2. If it doesn't grant you sorcerer levels, the Robe won't work.
Everyone has sorcerer levels. Most people have zero of them.
I bolded the part that is key here.
Why is that key? Well, to treat your sorcerer level as character level -2, you have to have a sorcerer level.
Everyone does, like I said, for most people it is 0.
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level - 2.
There is no such thing as a 0 level in something. You either are or your not.
That bolded part might mean that you are not given sorcerer levels, it just means when you read the power, which mentions sorcerer levels, which you don't have, replace that with Character level - 2.
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level - 2.There is no such thing as a 0 level in something. You either are or your not.
That bolded part might mean that you are not given sorcerer levels, it just means when you read the power, which mentions sorcerer levels, which you don't have, replace that with Character level - 2.
Sure. Then,
The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects
Kicks in and you add another +4.
For the purpose of using that power
and
for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects
Are the same situation.
Thus…
Robe works for the feat.
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I'd expect that the robe would increase your effective level for any Sorcerer bloodline powers you happened to have, however they were gained.
yeah I understand what you mean; that doesn't need to be clarified.
It could work that way.
However if my DM said that my Eldritch Heritage power wouldn't be affected by the Robe I wouldn't argue too much.
The feat might not give you any effective sorcerer levels.
'treat your sorcerer level' might mean you are effectively a sorcerer of character level - 2
or the word treat might mean replace, which means aren't a sorcerer at all and don't have any effective levels to add to.
or the word treat might mean replace,
If it wanted you to replace, it would say that. But as far as I know... nothing is ever worded that way. Sometimes there is a "Use X instead of Y". But since this specifically says 'treat as’ they essentially become synonymous.
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Hmmm...I think there's a caveat here. The EH feat says specifically for the purpose of using that power, use a number that is CL-2 in place of sorcerer levels. I think donning a robe would be a different "purpose" for your sorcerer levels, really.
The robe treats your sorcerer level as 4 higher, but...you don't have an actual sorc level, just a calculated number that's used in place of it exclusively for the purpose of EH.
Official ruling probably still pending, but...I kinda feel like they wouldn't interact like that. Not that I wouldn't use it if they did (I like sorcerers) but...I dunno, just strikes me as a very niche thing that wasn't intended. Sure, my wording still isn't verbatim what's in the book, but given the bigger nature of the game's design, I feel like that may be the safest, most accurate ruling for now.
Otherwise, you have a crossblooded sorc with two EH lines wielding four different bloodlines at higher level than his total CL.
Again, not that I wouldn't try it for laughs, but...
I'll bold key parts. These entries are trimmed down to just the relevant bits.
Eldritch Heritage gives you,
"Benefit:
Select one sorcerer bloodline. This bloodline cannot be a bloodline you already have.You gain the first-level bloodline power for the selected bloodline.
For purposes of using that power, treat your sorcerer level as equal to your character level – 2, even if you have levels in sorcerer. You do not gain any of the other bloodline abilities."
Robes of Arcane Heritage gives you,
"The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."Okay. So, what do we know?
With just the feat:
We have a Bloodline power. It is the first level bloodline power. For the purposes of using this power our sorcerer level is character level -2.With the robes too:
We have a Bloodline power. It is the first level bloodline power. For the purposes of using this power our sorcerer level is character level -2 +4.That is it. Crystal clear.
There is no contradiction at all. Anywhere at all here.
This is a very solid breakdown.
I'd also point out that the pricing of the item would be cheaper if it were meant to be class specific.
I'm not disagreeing with you guys, at all. The item could interact in that way with Eldritch Heritage.
I don't think it was intended to though, I think if we ever got a ruling it would be that it doesn't affect Eldritch Heritage.
We only seem to have the price of the item to imply how it works unfortunately. Which is all the price does, imply, it doesn't definitively settle it.
I know your position. You've repeated it several times. I understand it.
I just don't agree with it.
i know it's been a while, but regardless of the ultimate sorcerer level, does this item really grant future bloodline powers, including the bloodline capstone abilities, four levels before a sorcerer would otherwise get them? i like it, but it seems overpowered... no other class has such a simple shortcut to gaining levels, do they?
No. The Robes do not grant NEW abilities. It only increases the effective level of the existing abilities. If the Sorcerer can't use the abilities with the robe off, they don't magically get them when the robe is worn.
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No. The Robes do not grant NEW abilities. It only increases the effective level of the existing abilities.
Most other items of this type have an "does not grant abilities early" clause, but there's nothing like it in the description of the Robe of Arcane Heritage.
Quite to the contrary, it explicitly says "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects."So no to your no. The robe does give early access.
Most other items were released at a later date that dealt with granting new abilities or effective levels in abilities. I will stick with the conservative stance of "If it doesn't say, explicitly, that you gain new abilities ahead of your actual levels, you don't get new abilities."
You can play as loosely with the language and rules all you want at your own table. At your table, you are correct. At may table, I am correct. The issue comes up when either of tries to move our preferences onto the rules that govern the base game for everyone. We need to be consistent and fair, not arbitrary, on how effects that boost effective levels work, even when the terms used leave some wiggle rule for reinterpretation.
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How would you read the sentence "The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use" as anything but granting early access? That's about as explicit as it gets.
Yes, it's out of line with later, similar items, but that doesn't change the rules for this item.
I would treat it very simply. Can the Sorcerer use those abilities without the robe on? Then she can use them as if four levels higher with the robe on. If she CAN'T use those abilities without the robe on, it says nothing about granting new abilities. That specific language (granting new abilities) is require or the rules break down when other rules and mechanics are used in conjunction (like Eldritch Heritage).
As I said, consistency is important. My reading of it is not unfair, inconsistent, or mean-spirited. This is not the first time I've been on the other side of how people want an item to work, even if the language can be argued to allow it. I've always sided with consistency, and I wont move from the spot. I won't move because I've NEVER treated that item as giving new abilities. It's intention was clear to me the first time I read it (and I was around at the launch).
Really.
These elegant, dark purple robes are usually decorated with gold stitching suggesting a particular sorcerer bloodline, though some might indicate a family tree. When a sorcerer dons a robe of arcane heritage, the stitching pulls itself apart and reweaves to match her particular sorcerer bloodline. The wearer treats her sorcerer level as 4 higher than normal for the purpose of determining what bloodline powers she can use and their effects.
Where? Bold it for me. Find the word "new" for me. Are you sure the word "explicit" is the word you want to use?
I understand the issue rests on the word "can" in "she can use". That is a word that is, by far, no where near "explicit" in its meaning. It can have different meanings on how it is used. I am not "wrong". I merely chose a different, more consistent, meaning for the word "can".
I've already said my piece on the matter and nothing you've added has done anything to sway my reading of the item description. I am more than willing to allow you to continue believing that I am wrong about matter but I will remain holding my ground on the issue. Restating your interpretation repeatedly does not an argument make.
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I mean, bringing it in line with similar items may be a sensible house rule, but the item explicitly - yes, explicitly - says that you count as four levels higher in regards for what powers you can use (and also for what these powers do).
And no matter how sensible or reasonable a house rule is, it's still a house rule, not RAW.
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I agree exactly with what Pan said.
If I were GMing a game I'd think very carefully about giving this item to a player without modifying it.
If I were playing a Sorcerer and wanted this item I'd talk to my GM about how/why it can be considered OP before putting it on my character sheet. If the GM wants to rule as DeathlessOne would I wouldn't argue (it's still a good item).
Since this is the Rules Forum: According to the language used it does allow the use of new powers.