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In a fit of nostalgia, I recently began working up some house rules for a new Dark Sun campaign using Pathfinder as a base. There's been intermittent interest in similar conversions over the years on this site and others, so I figured I'd post my work for others to comment on or use as they see fit.
A couple of notes on my approach: I don't have any of the 4E Dark Sun material and will be ignoring any changes it made to the setting, such as including tieflings and subbing goliaths for half-giants. I've included a few rules ideas from the 3.5-era Dragon/Dungeon mag conversions, but have excised any setting/canon changes (elans, maenads, etc.) made there, as well. As much as possible, I've tried to emulate the feel of the original boxed set, 2E version of Dark Sun.
To that end, I've included random wild talents - most characters get an actual power (or two) rather than just a PP reserve - and increased the power level of the races to about 20 RP to reflect the superior abilities of the Athasian races compared to their 2E counterparts. I'm using the psionic rules from Psionics Unleashed (available at d20pfsrd.com).
The original called for starting characters at level 3, but I'm leaning toward starting mine at 2nd level. I expect to play fast and loose with the wealth-by-level guidelines in order to emphasize the scarcity of resources and magic. Magic-using classes typically benefit when you do that, but magic-users have their own problems to contend with on Athas ...
When possible, I've tried to err on the side of simplicity. Rather than heavily modifying character classes to bring them in line with the original setting, I've simply banned those that don't jibe while making minor tweaks to others. An inquisitor with very minor changes makes a fine templar, for example, and the rogue easily covers the Athasian bard and trader. If you want to play a gunslinger or a summoner, pick a different world.
It's still a work in progress - the house rules document includes notes on changes to create water and endure elements, for example, but I haven't gone through all the spells in the core rules to sift out inappropriate choices.
I've gone back and forth on the stats for the half-giant (Large or just powerful build?) and thri-kreen, but I'm mostly happy with what I have at the moment.
Here's what I have so far:
Races, Classes and Wild Talents
Are you going to use any of the psionic classes outside of the core 4? I've played Dark Sun with pathfinder a few times and used a Vitalist as the healer role as elemental clerics were more the kind to blow stuff up or drown you, etc. The Dread was also a good class for Sorcerer Kings minions, also Aegis seems appropriate and just fluff the armor as dense obsidian.
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Are you going to use the Dreamscarred Press' psionics for Pathfinder rules? Lots of fun talents and things there.
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I see, I love Dreamscarred Press material for psionics even during the era of their 3.5 material and I used quite a bit of it in dark sun in the past when I ran the 3.5 material. Dreamscarred Press has a set of feats for talents as well for your dark sun style.
Did you have a look at tne 3e conversion done by the folks at Athas.org?
They've done a really good job at porting Darksun to 3e and they tried too stay true to the original as mush as they could.
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Yes, I've got copies of the Athas.org stuff and likely will be using some of their material (the Terrors of Athas bestiary, for sure) with very minor tweaks. I wasn't in love with their take on the races and classes, however (which are 3e or 3.5, anyway, and not really in line with Pathfinder philosophy) or the way they did wild talents, which is why I did my own.
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See the note at the top of the armor section. The baseline full plate on the list is assumed to be made of nonmetal components. It costs 15 gp. Metal full plate would cost 100 times as much, or 1,500 gp. Chain mail can't be made from nonmetal materials (as noted by the asterisk) and so always costs 150 gp.
The weapon tables take the opposite tack--most weapons are assumed to be made of metal and are priced that way in the table. Then you discount based on the material. Exceptions are weapons that don't lose effectiveness based on materials.
How do you plan to deal with Defiling?
The best 3.5 way I came up with is that all Arcane spellcasters have access to all Metamagic feats in the Player's Handbook at any time, they just have to be willing to defile the world around them.
The level of defiling damage would be equal to the level adjustment of the feat. A maximized spell would do 3 levels of defiling. A preserver would actually learn the feat and modify the spell as usual, but even the most diehard preserver would have to decide if saving his friends lives would be worth a little defiling.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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This is similar to a conversion I was mentally kicking around. Looks pretty good.
Do you want to take steps to prevent a half-giant player from "locking in" their floating bonus feat? It looses some of the flavor if it just get used to fulfill a prereq and is then ignored.
I had though about making Athasian bards by mashing together the bard and the alchemist - basically removing spellcasting from the bard and giving them the alchemist's extracts and poison use.
You may think of providing a list of appropriate archetypes that fit the world as well.
I've also been working on a conversion. I had a similar idea for defiling being applying metamagic feats for free, but there's still a big difference. I'm more used to 4e's Dark Sun, so there's a sense of that in mine. There's a lot of changing. The Bard is no longer a caster, but has assassiny things. Link's here.
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ryric: I had considered a requirement that the half-giant's floating feat be one possessed by a current companion or a foe encountered within the last week ... and you've talked me back into it.
I thought about an alchemist-based approach to the Athasian bard, as well. If a player was interested that's probably the route I'd explore, but I opted to keep it simple for now. I also wonder if some alchemist-flavored rogue tricks wouldn't do the, er, trick. What with defiling and all, the minor and major magic tricks probably make more sense as alchemy.
It's interesting to see the different approaches people took with their conversions.
I see a lot that kept racial abilities at the traditional Pathfinder baseline, while I purposely boosted mine to about the 20 RP range (using the ARG as a guide) so I wouldn't have to nerf half-giants and thri-kreens, as well as to allow racial mods to fill some of the gap created by sub-par equipment. I don't think there's necessarily a right or wrong way to do it as long as you end up with the desired tone.
My approach was based in large part on the specific dynamics of my group. Several of them first started playing D&D with 2E Dark Sun, so I wanted to emulate that version as much as possible. Several are fairly casual players when it comes to rules, so I wanted to keep changes minimal. And while I like to DM fairly gritty games, they like to be play combat bad-asses, so boosting ability scores in a resource-poor, scramble for survival setting seemed to fill both desires.
We'll see how it works out. I'm converting the intro adventure from the first boxed set ("A Little Knowledge") and will post the stat blocks when I'm done.
Instead of alchemy, I think that it would make the most sense to reflavor it as psionic. I'm not saying to use power points, but just make them psi-like abilities.
I kept my racial abilities at the normal baseline, but I give everyone an additional free feat. I'm not familiar with 3.5's half-giants or thri-kreens, so I made my own. Unfortunately, I haven't had the time yet to add in all of the alternate racial traits that I've made so far.
One thing that I really like about 4e's Dark Sun is the inherent enhancement bonus. I made a version for Pathfinder which should really help out with the low-magicness and helps monks not need an amulet of mighty fists (and all of the natural attacks races get).
I might refer to your documents for the heat/starvation rules and the wild talents. I wasn't quite sure what to do with wild talents because I don't know them in 2e and 4e's wild talents are useless at best.
Four months. Hope that isn't too long. Dark Sun 2nd Edition had several odd rules, most which seem to have been forgotten. A lot adapts oddly to Pathfinder, but I enjoy everybody's take on so many different conversion threads.
One thing about bards. All rogues (bards and thieves) in 2nd Edition Dark Sun gained illusion spells at 20th level. Not sure what good Ventriloquism does at 20th level, but sure. Also, in the Defilers and Preservers of Athas book, they had something called Shadow Magic. I think this would be a great route to take the Bard. There was little difference between Bards and Thieves in Dark Sun, and a lot of conversions I’ve seen make them Rogues with music.
The Alchemist idea is a good one and could be made to work well. Just curious to what should be given up.
Lots of great resources here! My Dark Sun experience is all 2E and was pretty limited, but I love a lot of the ideas behind the setting
Please do. Also, post occasionally. I might take some time and link the other Dark Sun threads here. Dark Sun had a great number contradictions and holes in the theme, but so many people, including me, love the setting.
There is link to another thread in the link above.
I didn't like all the changes in the revised edition. I'm guessing everybody has their own versions. I haven't actually read 4th edition Dark Sun, so I cannot speak to how good or bad it is.
Whatever you do, do not use 4E's version of Dark Sun. The 2E version of Dark Sun is far superior for a conversion. 2E's is far more indepth and many of the changes to 4E were not for the better.
I used 4e's Dark Sun, and there are definitely problems with it. It's really easy to say that 4e's is less in depth considering that there is a single book as opposed to 2e's dozens. I'd say that it's a good introduction to the setting and it explains some things better than 2e's (why are there no gods intervening in the world, for instance). The main problem is just 4e's combat is not threatening. It's just tedious. Probably even worse is that defiling is just plain aweful in the 4e version. I never once saw a PC use it, even on nat 1s for a daily power. Even after I powered up defiling, it was still aweful. I think that mixing the two is probably the best way to go for me, but it depends on DM and PCs. The setting is highly dependant on the players and DM and what they want from it.
What are some things that have to be a "must" in Dark Sun and what can be reflavored?
Must
- Lack of metal and wealth in general
- War Torn desert world
- Evil rules the land, for the most part
- Thieving elves, stubborn and hairless dwarves, feral halflings
Everybody will have a different list. Just wondering what a majority agree on.
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What are some things that have to be a "must" in Dark Sun and what can be reflavored?
Must
- Lack of metal and wealth in general
- War Torn desert world
- Evil rules the land, for the most part
- Thieving elves, stubborn and hairless dwarves, feral halflingsEverybody will have a different list. Just wondering what a majority agree on.
You nailed it! This is the only setting that I felt the need to play psionics. It is also the last setting that literally scared me good. I literally felt like we had no chance.
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You nailed it! This is the only setting that I felt the need to play psionics. It is also the last setting that literally scared me good. I literally felt like we had no chance.What are some things that have to be a "must" in Dark Sun and what can be reflavored?
Must
- Lack of metal and wealth in general
- War Torn desert world
- Evil rules the land, for the most part
- Thieving elves, stubborn and hairless dwarves, feral halflingsEverybody will have a different list. Just wondering what a majority agree on.
ive never played dark sun, all my 2e experience was either in the underdark of toril, or in the outer planes, but from the sound of it 2e's best and most flavorful locations were total death traps, the underdark, athas (dark sun) ravenloft,
I loved it, I got to make new characters
Might want to see this.
Like the link, well all except the Defiling rules, do not like the bookkeeping.
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Simpler version might be. Since you do not allow sorcerer's
Wizards = Normal
But You gain +1 spell slot per spell level, that you can Spontaneous cast as a sorcerer, from the listed spell that the wizard has already memorized for the day. Using these spell slots are always consider an evil act, which can cause alignment change.
This spell is always considered a defiling spell. Causing a 1 foot radius per spell level, defoliation to plants. Creatures in this radius, take 1 hp damage per 3 spell levels, while plant/water creature take 1 hp per spell level. Undead/Constructs do not suffer any damage at all.
Evil Wizards, or once you become an evil wizard. You can also, overpower your normal spells, if you choose to.
- In lush terrain, you can cast your spells as if you were +3 to your caster level, in terms of range, area of effect, duration, or damage.
- In abundant terrain, you can cast your spells as if you were +2 to your caster level.
- In Fertile terrain, you can cast your spells as if you were +1 to your caster level.
In other terrain, you may Not over charge your spells. If you overcharge any spell, that spell is consider an evil spell, and does Defiling damage. Causing a 1 foot radius per spell level, defoliation to plants. Creatures in this radius, take 1 hp damage per 3 spell levels, while plant/water creature take 1 hp per spell level. Undead/Constructs do not suffer any damage at all.
The temptation for wizard to use these bonus spell slots, is what causing them to fall. Evil Wizard, just have an outright advantage, for being evil, in spell power. But Evil wizards, are also Hated and Feared for the damage they cause to all. Evil wizards are called Defilers; are hunted and killed when possible.
Even neutral or good wizards, who do not defile, have sigma attached to Arcane magic. They are never treated with respect, looked down apon, distrusted, and looked at as dabbling in destructive magic. People who can not tell the difference, or who do not care, might consider even neutral or good wizards as Defilers, and treat them as such.
Elf Racial Traits
• +2 Dexterity, +2 Charisma, -2 Constitution (0 RP)
• Medium: Elves are medium creatures and have no special bonuses or penalties due to their size. (0 RP)
• Normal Speed: Elves have a base speed of 30 ft. (0 RP)
• Low-Light Vision (1 RP)
• Desert Runner: Elves receive a +4 racial bonus on Constitution checks and Fortitude saves to avoid fatigue and exhaustion, as well as any other ill effects from running, forced marches, starvation, thirst, and hot or cold environments. (2 RP)
• Fleet-Footed: Elves receive Run as a bonus feat and a +2 racial bonus on Initiative checks. (3 RP)
• Keen Senses: Elves receive a +2 racial bonus on Perception skill checks. (2 RP)
• Weapon Familiarity: Elves are proficient with longsword, short sword, longbow (including composite longbow) and short bow (including composite short bow), and treat any weapon with the word “elven” in its name as a martial weapon. (2 RP)
• Languages: Common and Elven. Bonus Languages: Giant, Gith, Saurian, Sign Language, and Kreen. (0 RP)
Total of 10 pts.
Might want to see this.Like the link, well all except the Defiling rules, do not like the bookkeeping.
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What about this for defiling? Instead of more spells, you can spontaneously apply metamagic. This can be kept the same even if you add in sorcerers.
I haven't looked deeply into the playtest ddocument, but the Slayer class seems pretty perfectas an Athasian bard.
There is also an obscure reference in the old Defilers and Preservers of Athas book about the Shadow Mage. Wizards who drew their magic from the Black. To me, if you really wanted to use your imagination, simply make Bards more like Shadow Wizards. In all honesty, the only neat thing Bards received in 2nd Edition was Poison. Other than that, they were just thieves with lower Thief Skills.
The difference between the 3.X Bard and the 2nd Edition Bard is massive. I like the Pathfinder Bard as is and think it can find a place in a Dark Sun campaign.
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Well, in 2E Dark Sun they were meant to be assassins, not the "magical music men" they were in vanilla 2E and 3.X/Pathfinder. As a long-time hater of the magical music man (MMM) ideal (just my opinion, YMMV), I appreciated that approach, and still do. It comes down to personal preference - if you wanted to include a MMM-style bard in Dark Sun, you certainly could find a way to shoehorn one in, such as using a variant power source like the Black. Personally, I don't think it's needed. I gravitate toward the original version of Dark Sun from the first boxed set, rather than the post-Prism Pentad version that introduced some of the alternative arcane traditions.
If a player was really interested in playing the bard class, I'd try to make something work, either by modding the class to use psionics, rather than arcane magic (keeping the buffing and sound/language/music-based powers, but subbing in vitalist-style psionics for the spells), or, for players most interested in the jack-of-all-trades aspect, have them be an archeologist, casting as either a defiler or preserver.
Did somebody mention psionic bards?
It's 3.5. But shouldn't take too much monkeying.
This is really well done. Will the Dragon Kings be mythic foes?
This is quite interesting. Leaving a dot here.
I loved Dark Sun. Definitely keeping an eye on this. Any way to download that Pathfinder conversion on ISSU? Doesn't seem to be a way to.
Also, I don't know if it's been linked, but the guys that did Dark Sun made a kickstarter for something similar called Dragon Kings. Check it out here.
Made a Dark Sun Wizard over HERE! Let me know what you think!
Greetings Fellow Athasians!
I am running a PATHFINDER RPG set in the desolate wasteland campaign world of DARK SUN!
My colleagues and I both far and near, have 100% converted all DARK SUN rules and gameplay into the PATHFINDER system, and it has taken more than 2 years to do so!
I am currently running a DARK SUN campaign in Southern California (south bay), and we are in need of two additional heroes brave enough to face the horrors of Athas!
Please contact me directly if interested :)
Here is the Campaign Blog:
THE DARK SUN CHRONICLES BOOK 5: Obsidian Shadows
http://dsunos1.blogspot.com/
Greetings Fellow Athasians!
I am running a PATHFINDER RPG set in the desolate wasteland campaign world of DARK SUN!
My colleagues and I both far and near, have 100% converted all DARK SUN rules and gameplay into the PATHFINDER system, and it has taken more than 2 years to do so!
I am currently running a DARK SUN campaign in Southern California (south bay), and we are in need of two additional heroes brave enough to face the horrors of Athas!
Please contact me directly if interested :)
Here is the Campaign Blog:
THE DARK SUN CHRONICLES BOOK 5: Obsidian Shadows
http://dsunos1.blogspot.com/
May I ask how you did character generation? Like what resources you allowed,etc.?
Awesome! Dark Sun for PF was the first game I ran online starting nearly 5 years ago now! Mine was all 2E too, though I used some of the 3e conversion from athas.org.
Can you link the final rules you'll came up with? I could probably find mine somewhere if you have any interest in seeing, though it sounds like yours are done. I was thinking of starting another DS game, but went with elder scrolls instead, but its on my radar for a future game (granted that's probably a year to two now.) I'd love to see what you all did and either scrap my rules or possibly incorporate some of you'lls!
Have a great game!