Aloha,
Is it a good idea to use a reach weapon with a melee-style bard? Similar to the Reach Cleric build, use Combat Reflexes to deal out AoO damage whilst casting spells to support the group. I am currently making a 3rd level Bard and thought the idea had some merit.
Thanks
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I second this question. I'm playing a 3rd level archeologist and I currently am using a longspear in melee. First session I did great, but second session I didn't get hardly any AoO. Is there a trick to using a reach weapon Bard? Or am i better off playing an archer?
I like reach bards, particularly with the Arcane Duelist archetype, as you get feats like Disruptive and Spellbreaker for free. They work well with reach, so you're in good shape.
I rolled a bard gmnpc for the skulls and shackles game i gm, Shes an archaeologist and uses a whip with the whip mastery feats and is kinda a beast. She cant deal damage but she controls that 15ft of deck around her like no other.
Should I switch to the whip, or will focus on the longspear be good enough? And, is there any advice on how to set up to get more AoO for my character? I have combat reflexes but I hardly use it since every enemy I fight seems to be super alert when it comes to defending against AoO.
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The idea seems to be that when your turn starts, you use Acrobatics (or maybe Mobility) to move at least 10ft away from all enemies, then use your Standard action to cast a spell, do some Performance, or maybe make a Reach attack.
Then when it's the monsters' turn, they can move in on you (AoO), but they can't make a Full Attack because they had to move more than a 5ft step.
So if you're not getting enough AoOs, ask yourself the following:
* Am I keeping proper distance?
* Are the monsters ignoring me in favor of someone else?
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Anyway, for a Reach Bard on this scheme, no, don't switch to the Whip, it doesn't threaten AoOs at any range, so it's useless for this build.
So if you're not getting enough AoOs, ask yourself the following:
* Am I keeping proper distance?
* Are the monsters ignoring me in favor of someone else?
They tend to focus on the party's calvalier. I usually try to set myself up between the enemies and our squishies (such as the sorcerer and the non-melee ranger) but so far my foes have just stayed out of my reach distance and walked around me to get to the targets they wanted to get to. This forces me to move and attack to get them off the squishies, after which they usually 5-foot step towards me and attack, denying me any AoO.
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They tend to focus on the party's calvalier. I usually try to set myself up between the enemies and our squishies (such as the sorcerer and the non-melee ranger) but so far my foes have just stayed out of my reach distance and walked around me to get to the targets they wanted to get to. This forces me to move and attack to get them off the squishies, after which they usually 5-foot step towards me and attack, denying me any AoO.So if you're not getting enough AoOs, ask yourself the following:
* Am I keeping proper distance?
* Are the monsters ignoring me in favor of someone else?
I think you and/or your party is doing something wrong here. Maybe you should sit down with the squishies and hammer out a group tactic for this.
You say the monsters can walk around you to get to the squishies. What terrain are you fighting on? Dungeon, or wide open plains, or something in between? With reach extending 10ft in either direction, you block a 25ft corridor, that's quite wide.
A monster that wants to circle around your threatened area needs to take a long way around to the squishies. While it's doing that, what are the squishies doing? Standing still? They shouldn't be - they can circle around you too, and they don't have to worry about your AoO. It's like playing a game of tag with someone and there's a car in the middle. If you dodge left to get to them, they'll just move to the right, keeping the car in between you. If you move right, they move left. You're not tagging the guy because he's keeping the car between you two.
Your party's squishies could be doing the same thing - keeping you between them and the monsters at all times.
Be aware of the Charge rule: you can only charge if you go in a straight line. And a charge is the only normal way of combining a double move with an attack. To charge squishies on the other side of you, the monster has to go through your threatened area. If the monster tries to circle around you threatened area, it's probably not going in a straight line for the squishies, so it's either making a double move, or a single move + attack.
If the monsters take a single move, then a single move by the squishies should suffice to get away again. Remember that the squishies can move through your "territory", so they have a slight movement bonus compared to the monsters. The monsters make a single move, the sorcerer does too to get out of the danger zone again and he can still cast a spell.
If the monsters get tired of not reaching the squishies in a single move, they can double-move to get closer, but then the squishies can withdraw-double-move too. Since the monsters double-moved, they can't attack. Now you, the monsters and the squishies are all doing "nothing": dancing around each other with no actual attacks. Except you still have a standard action each turn to cast spells or Perform. And if the monsters are dancing around you, the cavalier can easily divide-and-conquer all the monsters while the rest of the party saves on spells. It's not the fastest way to win a fight, but it's probably cheap on the healing.
Of course, the result of this should be that after a while the GM realizes that the monsters can't get to the squishies as long as the squishies keep moving and the monsters are too afraid of you. So he's forced to engage you or at least suffer the AoOs. And when a monster charges past you at the squishies, you can Trip them en-route. And remember that the penalty to AC from charging should also apply to CMD...
Anyway, you mention being forced to attack to save the squishies. That's not supposed to happen; you should be making AoO because the monsters chase after the squishies, when the squishies hide behind you.
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My real worry about this style as a bard isn't forcing the monsters to pay attention to me. It's about how well a bard can take the punishment with Light Armor and no shield.
I think you're right as to hammering out a group stratagy. The Sorcerer buffs himself then heads into melee most of the time, while the Ranger tends to just stand still for Rapid Shot.
The DM is still kinda getting the hang of the Pathfinder system. It's currently core and APG only (i got away with Archeologist as I'm covering holes in the party with it).
As of right now, it seems the best I can offer my party is ranged fire support. As much fun as the longspear seems, it requires a kind of group stratagy to work, and right now my group just doesn't have it quite yet.
Thanks, everyone, for the helpful advice and input on how to play a reach weapon bard. I'll be sure to use it in my next campaign. Hopefully this helped provide some answers for you Thyrkill
YES. Best weapon fr it is long spear. I know seems strange.
Flagbearer feat with banner of the ancient kings.
Spear dancer feat.
Arcane strike
Then the other very useful reach feats. Lunge, combat reflexes and so on.
A 4 lvl dip into dragon disciple if worth considering. 4 str means a lot with a two handed weapon and it will boost survivability. With that flag the lose of IC progression will be offset or Aasimra alternate favored class bonus.
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I do think the combination of Cavalier and Reach Bard shows promise. You'd be the anvil and he the hammer. However, a sorcerer who actually wants to go into melee does somewhat foil that, as does a stand-still ranger.
But I still wonder - what kind of areas are you fighting in? Big enough that enemies can really walk around your threatened area?
It' an urban campaign, and we tend to fight in streets and buildings (only 3-4 session in so far). Not sure where else it'll end up going, but I need to keep my Dex reasonable because I'm also the party trapfinder (DM swapped out Perform for Disable Device as it made more sense as an archeologist). On top of being the scout (the next sneakiest guy is the NPC rogue, then the party cleric). Oh, and I still can only wear light armor for casting.
Usually they'll move within 10ft (inside my attack range), then wait for next turn to start 5-ft stepping through if they can't go around. For the calvalier on the other hand, he doesn't have combat reflexes, so a mook uses up his single AoO then the rest charge through his reach weapon range and do as they please : /
The problem is that bards don´t get so much feats to use whips properly. You have to invest At least 4 feats only for the whip. Then maybe you want maneuver feats or serpent lash. Weapon Finesse is also not wrong for a build like this, gives you a higher AC.
I´m on the point where i need to decide the future of my bard if she survives too. But since she is a Kitsune i would also like to take some racial feats and the typical bard stuff like lingering performance.
That´s even more feats.
Weapon Focus - Whip Mastery - Improved Whip Mastery - maybe Greater Whip Mastery - Combat Reflexes - Dodge - Mobility - and finally Combat Patrol.
At least seven feats. Maybe eight. Not counting in later probably needed Combat Expertise and Improved Maneuver feats.
Whip is cool, but AoO´s with whips are a mid to late game entry and as a bard you get the above feats only at level 13 or 15. Fortunately you can do something untill then and use what you have. So this could work out, but you reach it kinda late.
Whip is also a weapon with the trip and disarm tag, but there are some polearms with that too. That might be something to consider too.
Another good tactic for something like that is taking combat expertise, gang-up and outflank, if your teammates are willing to cooperate that far.
That brings you a +4 flanking bonus if 2 allies threaten. Get a +1 mencaing dueling (from Society field guide) weapon and the bonus gets +6 from flanking, +7 with weapon and for maneuvers +14. Add in your bonus from inspire and you´re the hero.
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Usually they'll move within 10ft (inside my attack range), then wait for next turn to start 5-ft stepping through if they can't go around. For the calvalier on the other hand, he doesn't have combat reflexes, so a mook uses up his single AoO then the rest charge through his reach weapon range and do as they please : /
How exactly do the bad guys know who has Combat Reflexes and who doesn't? Sounds like your GM is metagaming inappropriately.
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I'll necromancy this thread to answer Any advice on how to set up to get more AoO for my character?
I've played Reach Clerics for several dozen sessions with a variety of GMs.
First, there is considerable variation between GMs. Some GMs will give out more AoOs than others. That said, the most important consideration is good teamwork with your allies, with personal tactics a close second.
I've learned that the most effective way to maximize the AoOs your reach PC gets is to educate the other players in reach tactics. I use two tools to teach my allies:
1. I give a brief spiel about combat tactics and reach weapons to the other players at game start:
Important tactical note for effective teamwork with Magda:
Magda inflicts martial damage primarily with AoOs and a reach weapon. Teamwork, or lack thereof, greatly influences the number of AoOs provoked by foes. It helps to think of this effect as a Blade Barrier trap active only during the enemy movement phase. Your clever tactical actions can often give Magda additional hard-hitting attacks.
2. I end my turn by stating, "Magda sets her virtual blade barrier trap" and then actually draw on the map where her threatened zone is. This is either a 25' diameter doughnut or, if Enlarge Person is active, a 50' diameter doughnut. Then I say to the rest of the team, "Your actions can influence whether or not foes run through this 'blade barrier'".
If another martial character is eager to rush the foe (which will prevent AoOs) I point out that they are much more likely to get a Full Attack, and will inflict more damage, if they are tactically clever enough to wait until after the foes charge through the 'blade barrier'. At first this is an uphill battle, but they learn quickly. Sometimes an ally will even go so far as to Ready an action to 5' Step and Attack anything that gets past Magda's reach and stops adjacent to her - which often removes soft cover and gives her more AoOs. At 8th level each AoO hits for about 30-40 HP damage.
One tricky option that increases AoOs is to be Large (20' reach) and then stay in the 2nd rank. You must ensure that your allies remain adjacent and are less than half your height. If this is true then nearby short allies do not provide soft cover, so you can take AoOs at 15' and 20' over their heads, from the 2nd rank. Party movement discipline is vital, so I don't try this if there's a loose cannon in the group.
Another thing I do is deliberately use reach to screen allies. Even when a foe refuses to give up an AoO it's generally a win, because it hinders that foe's ability to act. For example, a foe who refuses to approach will not attack the squishy allies hiding inside your reach.
These tactics have greatly increased the AoO count this type of character gets, and sometimes yields an impressive round-one damage nova. Best combat round to date (at 6th level) was over 150 HP melee damage inflicted (mostly with AoOs) with no critical hits. This approach can also screen weaker allies from melee damage.
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I played a bard with reach and a long spear, from 1-15th level.
I augmented the character by being multiclassed with rogue, for the "Gang Up" feat and SA damage, but in and of itself the design was fine without that.
In essence, standing in the second line, or from an off side to attack something.
I only had a starting strength of 14, but 1d8+2 was solid for 1-4th level fighting.
Learn to love the 5 foot step. With that, you could 5 foot step, then hit something that started your round 15' away from you.
I agree about Lunge, its a very good addition to this kind of character...now with Lunge you are able to hit things that start the round 20 feet away from you. Plus you get more AoO when or if they decide to focus on you.
So, with Power Attack, 1d8+2 turns into 1d8+3, Arcane Strike for another +, Bard Performance for another +2, suddenly you aren't just annoying them, you can really start to do some fun stuff.
STR belt, or an Ioun Stone...it starts to be more than just an annoyance, a lot of times I was running around to the enemies the main Melee types had almost dead anyhow and finishing them off.
Enchanted Long Spear, and it got even sillier.
Factor in your longer reach and ability to flank from more unusual positions, and your +to hit is still respectable.
Generally it was [+1 (weapon enhancement) +2 (bard perform) +2 (flank) +1 (cleric buff) +3 (bab) +2 (ability)] for a +11 to hit overall. If I could, I'd sometimes charge to make that a +13...factor the -2 for Power Attacking and back down to a +11, or +9 to hit if not charging. All of that at 5th level.
Damage on the above was a solid [d8 + 1 (weapon enhancement) +2 (ability score) +6 (power attack) +2 (arcane strike) +2 (bard perform)] for a grand total of D8 + 13, nothing to sneeze at for a 5th lvl guy.
Enlarge person for even more fun.
This also doesn't factor in the AoO that you get, so its even more.
Watch your party Melee get all weird when you outdamage him suddenly. Its rather amusing.
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Watch your party Melee get all weird when you out damage him suddenly. Its rather amusing.
I agree completely. I've done this with a reach cleric, and I've seen reach bards do the same. In a round when you get all your AoOs (usually round 1 or 2) your damage output soars beyond what even a Magus can inflict.
Dot.
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Some GMs are really skittish about taking AoOs. That's fine, you can use that. You see, if your foes are loathe to move in the area you threaten, you've just done de facto battlefield control, without a single roll required.
This! You want to set things up tactically so that either your foes give you free AoOs, which is a win, or your foes refuse to come within your reach, which is also a win. While it's great to inflict big damage on incoming foes, it's also great to protect the squishies hiding inside your reach. This all requires some tactical coordination, though.
